The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Lately I have noticed lots of comments on the UPCI. What I say here is not that I am for or against those that left for I do NOT even belong.
However when we leave something that served us why not leave in grace and just go on...Close that chapter....Let them go on and you go on...Why vomit on the table where you once ate?
Everybody in leadership has had those people who couldn´t stay out of your house and as long as you were feeding them you were heaven sent...but the day the table was empty they were gone...and telling how evil you (organization) were.
I know a former missionary that left Brazil many years ago and the people would write this missionary, try to contact this missionary but the former missionary said to me, "Janice, If I contact the people in the end I will cause confusion. I love the people ENOUGH not to contact them"
I was young back then and thought that was strange for she had raised up a work from nothing...it in reality was her work but due to circumstances she felt to leave.
Now many years have passed and I can look back and I see seh did the right thing. She did not keep a stir and an unrest...she just gracefully walked out.

I was so young back then I really thought she ought to keep contact. After all they were her babies so to speak...she had not come in and worked in someone else´s work and taken advantage of anyone. They were the product of her labor.
Today that work still goes on...today I know if she would have kept in contact there would have been unrest until today...She was godly enough to make the right decision.
That is how I feel about people leaving any group...it is fine to leave but have enough grace to LEAVE...
In reality this person in my eyes was done wrong but the souls involved meant more to her than her personal feelings...a rare thing in the world today.

...and this is to no certain person or group...just my thoughts...

Re: The Grace to leave and e gone...
 

should I go hide in the jungle?

Re: The Grace to leave and e gone...
 

No. :)

Sister Alvear, those who talk bitterly, do so, IMO, because they don't have a clear conscience. Beam and splinter.

These men of God were talking about one another before there was any "split", and many of them continue their bad behavior, and unless and until they allow God to change their hearts and help them bite their tongues, the affliction will continue to fester. This separation could have been done correctly, it could have been done amicably, but it wasn't. The people who were for it headed it up like they were the great crusaders leading the charge against evil men--but that was just the story they told themselves to soothe their consciences, because it was patently unethical, the way it was handled, and they know it. And the men they were crusading against were/are their brothers in arms--not *the enemy.*

Secondly, a soft answer turns away wrath, and those who were AGAINST the dissenters could have responded differently--but they didn't. They could have responded respectfully, but for the most part--they haven't.

When I see a man talk viciously about his brother, I think he is trying to divert attention from his own short comings. Kind of like the men who brought the adulterous woman to Jesus..."Look what SHE did." No, look at who YOU are!

The kingdom of God deserved better than this--from both sides. Men have behaved badly, and so far their pride (collectively speaking) has prevented most (if not all) of them from confessing it.

Those are just my observations from the nosebleed section.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

I totally agree.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Sister Alvear,

Excellent post. I am amazed at how many Christians seem to have a total disregard for the fruit of the Spirit and other Christian values when it comes to these things.

Bitterness is a consuming thing that is contrary to the very core of Christianity. Yet we see it rear its ugly head again and again.

I think some of those caught in the grip of bitterness justify it to themselves as "rightous indignation".

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

What gets old too is when some think just because you are gone from UPC that you are bitter. Not all of us are bitter. (and those 'some' ARE NOT Sis. Alvear)

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

this is a little off the topic but can be connected...


As a lifetime missionary I sure have made LOTS of mistakes but one thing I can say both as a missionary, a leader and an overseer: Not always, but in general terms there are always those in it for a free lunch. There is no perfect organization, no perfect fellowship, no perfect people. We must learn to live our convictions in an imperfect world.
No leader can please everybody. You will get sick trying... Everybody has their friends and friends are the ones that usually destroy friends by NOT telling them the truth. Just saying things to please people.
I will give an example we all know...the grass is greener on the other side...but after we get there and live a while it is not near as green as we thought.
I know many good people that have been destroyed by PRIDE...to proud to say I was wrong and "friends" in the background telling them "you are right." Most of the time those so called friends...buddy buddy... are the very ones on down the road that will destroy you.

Just this morning I had a person in my office wanting advice...I gave the person advice that the humble route would work the best KNOWING they would not take it...because their friends are telling them different...(Nothing church related but they wanted my thoughts)

We have a boy in one of our churches that has a serious health problem but had rather die than ask for help. I got him help but he did not want the help because it would be humbling to his pride to get in as a poor person...I told him, son the last 2 times I have went to the doctor I went and waited and waited for a free visit...I waited almost 6 hours with the nurse that asked the doctor to please attend me...It was a long wait but I met the nicest doctor and got help...

I am not saying the UPC is right or wrong...I am sure men left and they had their reasons...just like we all have our reasons. This applies to any situation.

Some reasons people leave and make wrong decisions:

Self Pity....nobody knows what I am going through... I am almost all alone in this...
Fear...
Peer Pressure
Pride...as mentioned...Pride goth before destruction...


Long after people "do their thing" results will still be there. And even if the person gets right or maybe is right but made the wrong decision...they carry scars for life...
Many times children that lived through it become bitter and never serve God...

I always think of Pharaoh and the many times he told Moses, "I have sinned..." He knew he sinned but could not come to a place of REAL repentance...
Some people repent because it is the right thing to do but not because they are really sorry...
Like one lady that her husband was caught with another women...was found in the alter crying and telling his wife he was sorry...she did not seem impressed...someone asked her why, she replied, "he is not sorry just sorry he got caught..."

Well, that did not have a lot to do with the topic but that is what comes to my mind...

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

So true...Sherri and I sat over lunch when I was home and she did not say one evil word about the UPC...Such a kind sweet spirit...

That is what I am saying...we can leave anything...build our life and not run anyone down.

Love you.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Life has taught me a lot of lessons...(THE UNIVERSITY OF LIFE) if some situation doen´t work...just bow out gracefully...

I hope Sherri doesn´t mind me mentioning her...if she does please erase my posts however I have noticed on this forum and in real life she shows such love for people that were once a great part of her life. She does not believe like they do however she remembers their good times together...
She has went on with life and in involved in what she feels is God´s will.

Other posters are good examples of this such as MOW...he went on with life...

I have had to break away from some of the people I loved...not one person can say I have said an evil word against them. We just don´t see things alike...

I know as a leader you do make enemies...that just happens...but we don´t have to eat them for every meal.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Wise words Sister A.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

I agree with you CC cause I have seen some that have left and speak nothing but great things about the movement and others that could say nothing good at all.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

What's ironic is that some of the same folks who criticize the AFF for discussing UPC "issues" are the same ones who tear down ministers in the opposing organization (whichever one it may be) every chance they get.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

One of the reasons I enjoy this forum so much is because, while I left the UPC many years ago, that doesn't mean that I don't still love the people of the UPC. I do!

At the same time, one thing I determined long ago was that I don't need anyone "judging me" for the decisions that I've made in leaving - that is between me and God. And because I don't want anyone to judge me, I also don't feel the need to judge anyone else. I may not agree with everything that is said, but I don't need to put anyone down for what they believe. Why would I? Am I perfect? nope

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

so true Margies3....

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Very good post Sis Alvear!
Right on the mark!

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

It seems the concnsences of those posting is, that one is vomiting at the table they once ate at because they point out false doctrine that is being taught in many of the churches and believed by some at the highest level of the UPCI? ( saved at repentance, light doctrine, friends of the bride doctrine)

Is it vomiting at the table when on takes a stand against those in the UPCI that teach it is grammatically correct to say I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost which is Jesus name??????

Today if one points out false doctrine where ever it is found they are told that they don't have love, that they are mean spirited.

When one fellowships with those that preach or teach these false doctrine they are validating what is taught in that church, no matter the reason!! The end does not justify the means!!!! They might as well felowship with Catholics.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

I think you need to reread the first post!

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

No, Light. It's not wrong to say something is false or that you disagree with it scripturally. It is wrong to malign the intentions, reputations and specific names of other ministers simply because they don't share your views.

It's usually better to set yourself apart by stating what YOU believe, rather than maligning your brother by stating what they believe--or what you THINK they believe.

And, yes, it IS wrong to sit down to dinner with other ministers and have brethren who are NOT present to defend themselves as your main course.

Galatians 5:15 "But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another."

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Sister A great thoughts. I agree with everyone's post on this thread except for one.

Some really good thoughts.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Good thoughts Sis. Alvear. No need to hide in the jungle!

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

These posts really uplifted me this am. I have been disturbed by some of the posts of late and frankly disappointed in some. Sis. A you were used this morning and I want to thank you for listening to the voice of God and moving in the spirit.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

You are so welcome.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

I think the UPC with all their faults and failures have done more to promote missions than any group I know about for a long consistent time.
I do not belong but I do not speak evil of them for they have done far more than I will even dream of doing.
Do I know a few shady things yeah...I do...but even so often our own actions are misunderstood...
I think of all the hundreds that I have fed, clothed, bought things for them and yet some go away spitting fire...You just cannot please everybody.
A leader is up for target...and some enjoy the killing part.
I am not saying they did not have a reason to leave...of course they did if they preach different than the UPC. I have good friends that left and good friends that stayed. I see no problem with forming as many groups as they want to be formed...just do it gracefully and many are doing just that.
However we have a saying in Brazil, "Don´t spit in the plate where you ate."

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

If I stand against error I always want to make sure am I standing for truth against error or is this personal vendetta? Do I condemn in my enemies what I condone in my friends that is the test of truth?

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Everyone that ever does a work for God will have friends and enemies...Jesus had them too!
Sometimes we work better apart than together...

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Amen

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Brother Epley...that says it all! I pray that God help us all.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Great post Sis. A. You can hide in the jungle if you promise to take your laptop :)

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

sending natives to build me a tower for reception!

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Some how Br. if one speaks out against false doctrine you are declared bitter and that you have a vendetta. I know you were not referring to me but this is what one is confronted with when they speak out. The UPCI is not my enemy. I have many friends and relatives that still go to or belong as ministers. When I confront them with only those that obey acts 2:38 completely and believe that it is necessary will be in heaven. I am told you shouldn't judge.
As I watched a small portion of Kennith Haney's message last night I heard him say that those in the UPCI should be strong on doctrine. I wonder, which doctrine was he talking about? Acts 2:38, friends of the bride, saved at repentance and last but not least the light doctrine? All of these doctrine are believed and taught one way or another in the UPCI.
I know there are some churches that still believe the 3 step message. We are judged by the company we keep.

Believe me I am not bitter I have nothing to be bitter about. I left over truth not some problem. I love the truth and as long as I have breath I will speak out against false doctrine.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

God bless the UPCI and Br. Haney and...
God bless the WPF and Br. J. Godair!

Both organizations need prayer and Gods guidance.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Sis. A,

Although this might be ideal in a perfect world, the world is far from perfect. Things are not that easy, black and white, cut and dried. Often, the ministry and church members speak badly of those who left just as those who have left speak badly of the church. Both sides have their issues. However, those who leave are usually used to having kept their mouths shut for years while listening to the church say bad things about the people outside and in. When a person leaves, they are often exercising a right they feel they have been denied for a long time. I say let them speak. The church might learn something if it takes the time to listen. Often, if I speak (write) about any negative experience, whether I am venting or just speaking about facts, ministry will bring up issues like you have, how they have been hurt in the ministry by laity but they don't talk about it. Well, fact is, they do. But ministry also has a reason not to....more of a reason than those who left, because the people that hurt them are basically subordinates. Being hurt by church members is not the same as being hurt by ministry. I know because I have experienced both. Ministry is expected to take the high road. They also get paid to take the high road, theoretically.

At any rate, ministry should stop trying to get people to quit talking and begin listening. They just might learn something.

Re: The Grace to leave and e gone...
 

Oh. Apparently this topic is about certain circumstances. Beats me.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Perhaps this post wasn't meant in your direction?
I too believe in Repentance, Water Baptism in Jesus name & the Infilling of the Holy Ghost is nessecary for Salvation.
I am still in a UPCI Church.

Go back and read the first post.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

ILG, whether you have been legitimately hurt or not, the Bible says "FORGIVE!"

Once that forgiveness has been asked for our not, we should drop it.
Do we have concerns?
Yes, but we need do be careful that our writings do not reflect the bitterness we feel.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

I agree with that. Apparently there are writings here that are being referred to that I don't know about. I am not speaking for or against anything that may or may not be written here. But there have been times when I have personally written things about the UPC and meant nothing but to share, but before it was over I was very angry at the attacks on my character by supposed people of God. I am sure I have said things that I shouldn't. But the thing is that pointing fingers and blaming sides really isn't the answer. Listening to each other is. That is often easier said than done.

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

Is the WPF a completely separate organization now? (Behind the times.....)

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

ILG, I don't think there's anything wrong with *venting* as long as it can be done appropriately without returning evil for evil. Nor is there anything bad necessarily with addressing issues within one organization or another.

When I read Sister Alvear's first post, I immediately thought of the WPF/UPCI split, even though she didn't say that specifically. I don't know if she intended the discussion to be that narrow or not, so don't limit yourself on my account. That's just what has been on my mind lately, so that's where I went. Honestly, the discussions that take place on the AFF are MILD compared to what I've heard in more than a few fellowship halls among ministers--about other ministers.

As far as ex-upcers here on the forum--I think it's fair to assume that if you question a minister or church within an organization, unless you make a distinction between the church as a whole and the specific circumstance, you can expect folks to defend the organization as a whole. I think that's what sets people on edge the most--when the allusions are too generic or broad, and some of us get caught in the net of accusation or anger or angst who don't belong there.

:coffee2

Re: The Grace to leave and be gone...
 

I got no problem with that.

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That is interesting, when I read the first post, I thought of something different.
It is interesting that we can read a post and get a different take on it than others.

That isn't necessarily wrong, it just just different takes on the same post.