Grace Verse Legalism
 

Galatians isn't the only book where we are told as Christians/Christ followers to not take back the yoke of the law with its regulations and rules because it makes the grace of God to no effect. This is also contained in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and today I read in Colossians Chapter 2:13: When you who were dead in your sins and in the circumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the written code, with its regulatians, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; He took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authoritities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabboth day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported, and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules; Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, butt they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

I would like to discuss this issue without name calling, judgments about my character or anyone else's. Let's look together at the word of God. It is too easy when one has no answer to throw stones and someone you consider lesser than yourself. We are all levelled at the foot of the cross.

In God's grip,
Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Rhoni, i recall "hearing or ereading" one time that ABI at one time did not teach or cover the book of Romans in their curiculum.

The reason being, they just didn't know how to explain away Pauls message there about grace in light of the legalism that they taught.

Anyone ever hear of this before ? I don't recall where i heard it.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Freeatlast,

I never heard that. I do know that for many years ABI was the only school where you could get good Bible Doctrine teaching.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

When I was at ABI (over half a century ago) we considered ourselves to be the best for doctrinal teaching. We considered PBI at Tupelo to be "loose" on doctrine because they were one-steppers. And we considered AC in Tulsa to be radical because they were against Coca Cola and wedding rings.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Is "Freedom from Legalism" the same thing as GRACE?

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

It doesn't define it, but it means we are set free from legalism because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What the law, rules and regulations could not do - Christ did. He freed us from the law. We are saved by His grace because none of us are worthy and if we try to prove our worth by submitting to all these manmade traditions we are nullifying the grace of God. Jesus Christ is enough.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Sam,
What did ABI teach about the grace of God?
Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I always thought of "Grace" as being that continued unwarranted forgiveness of my imperfections...

And "freedom from legalism" comes with the realization of "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."

Kinda the same?

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I love grace. It is God who made us righteous and not any act of our's.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

AMEN! :friend

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Rhoni,
This is a hard and deep subject in some ways.

One aspect would be: Being in leadership and having to work with people, I find that so many people don't even want to think for themselves. They expect you to tell them what to do. It's as though they "expect" you do drive them along like cattle. Sometimes that can be very exasperating.

I think this brings in a little more legalism than is necessary, but then you sit back and say, "How else can I handle this and make it work?"

It seems in every setting you have your followers and your leaders. I read that no matter how large the congregation you will always, only, have 25% doing the work and doing the giving.

Anyway, I really believe that is where the root of "legalism" starts. Trying to get people to have some gumption and drive. We can say, "Just preach the Word and let the Spirit guide, direct and convict."

That's a good place to start, but you still have your followers. What do you do with those people?

I'm not promoting "legalism" in any way, but I think it's tied up with the non-producers in some ways.

I hope you understand what I am trying to convey.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

grace everytime, legalism is too heavy a burden to carry, dt

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I agree with that definition: I use the terms - the unconditional positive regard that Christ show toward us. We are his children when we believe that He is who he says he is. When we accept His forgiveness, identify with him in burial through baptism in his name and walk in the righteousness that he gives us we will forgive ourselves and others as he has forgiven us.

God knows our weakness even if we can hide them from people. His grace and mercy covers all our faults and sins from now until eternity. If we try to make ourselves holy by living up to man's laws, rules, and regulations we deny the work of the cross in our lives.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Leadership should empower their congregation to pray and seek God, go to the word, and make their own decisions. Just because some people are followers does not give leadership license to make decisions for them. Strive for spiritual maturity. You need to grow the children up not keep them in the crib:).

Leadership, much like counselors, have to detach from the client/member's issues to have their own life. It is not my responsibility to carry the burden of my clients, not the Pastor's responsibility to make decisions for the congregation. They are to teach and feed the flock/congregation through example and word.

You'd be surprised if you put the responsibility back on the person by asking them what they think they should do in light of what God has said in his word...can come up with the right answer for themselves.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

You know, now that you've asked, I can't really remember how the subject of "grace" was handled. Bro. Norris was a strong "three-stepper" but he taught the doctrine that is some times called the "light doctrine" and some times called the "holy, righteous and wicked" doctrine. In other words, Acts 2:38 is the message we preach and hold people to but everyone will be judged by how well they walked in the light they had and many who have never heard of Acts 2:28 or didn't understand Acts 2:38, or never knew about Christianity, will receive eternal life at the Great White Throne. He emphasized that in his doctrine class. Also, he was very emphatic about the "Gospels, Acts, and Epistles" divisions of the New Testament. We were told not to look at the Epistles to find out how to be saved. But, I don't remember him ever telling us not to teach or preach from Romans. Another thing he was strong on was that there could never be more apostles than the original twelve plus Paul. He taught that they erred when they chose Matthias and that God did not recognize him as an apostle. He was also strong against the "oil doctrine." He was critical of Amy McPherson, Little David Walker, and A.A. Allen. He posted a certificate or news article (don't remember which) in the school hallway about A.A. Allen being arrested for DUI. I don't, however, ever remember him putting down Bro. Howard Goss as being "weak on the message." Bro. Norris was a strong man and could be caustic and you didn't dare cross him. But I don't remember him being called "the Bear." That term may have come later. Some of us used to say that his initials S.G. stood for Sagging Gut.

I was only there one year and I was a baby Christian.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I agree with what you are saying. I am a self-starter and have never had a problem in this area.

Just looking back and having been under both good and bad leadership, I still see a large group of people that don't seem to have a "desire" to try and think for themselves.

I don't know where that comes from. I'm not sure we can totally blame that on a lack of good leadership in all cases.

I personally know a great leader and preacher who has cried and said, "I can't get these people to stop living off of my anointing and seek their own."

This still amazes me. I don't understand it. I'm sure I am approaching your thread from another direction. LOL!

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I think sometimes we do all kinds of things trying to make ourselves holy (such as how we dress, places we stay away from, people we stay away from etc.) and then we finally realize WE can't make ourselves holy. We can rule and regulate our lives until we're blue in the face and that is not what makes us holy.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Oh, about "Grace," from what this foggy brain remembers from over half a century ago, Bro. Norris emphasized that the Church Age went from Pentecost to the Rapture and it was called the Grace Age. He was a dispensationalist when it came to that. He also taught that the 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 represented different phases of the Church Age.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I believe "GRACE" is the most beautiful, yet most misunderstood words in the entire scripture. Grace, to me, is God's favor, His pity on us whereby, in immeasurable love He forgives our sins and gives us abundant life. Quite simply put, he offers us that which we do not deserve.

I was sitting at the fringes the other day of a youth meeting where one of the youth leaders made a statement that said there will be people who go to hell with the Holy Ghost. The expression on my face must have been priceless because EVERYONE in the room knew of my immediate displeasure with that statement. The context in which he said it was that, you could be saved but "not living right" and die suddenly and go straight to hell.

What his definition of "living right" was, I have no idea. But I can guess that it's a legalistic definition that puts more stress on "doing" and always being vigilant lest you be found not "doing enough." The sad thing is that he is a good man who has a servant's heart and truly loves the Lord, but his views are warped by years of teaching by an apostate pastor that treated the subject of grace like it was a swear word while emphasizing outward signs of "holiness" and "living right."

The Law is the enemy of Grace. And when people revert back to the law for their list of what they can and cannot do, the grace of God becomes worthless to them. And now, they are debtors to do the whole law.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I believe you have answered a question for me - The "fear" factor of our steps every day in living for God. While a healthy respect and love for God is right, a plummeting "fear" is very unhealthy and diverts our attention from the beauty and strength we find in God - in His Spirit that dwells in us.

If we focus more on fear of failing and not on the strength we are afforded, through His Spirit, we become weak.

"Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh."

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I don't believe it's necessarily a lack of good leadership, as it is perhaps a lack of a good example. Let me explain, because I know that sounds harsh.

The thing is, unless people are hungry, they won't go looking for food. Unless people are thirsty for living water, they won't go looking for something to drink. Instead, they are lulled to sleep and end up becoming fat and lazy. Our job, as salt, is to make people thirsty! If people had more examples of people on fire for God, making a difference, walking in the freedom wherein Christ has made them free and in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost, they would be more likely to grow hungry or thirsty for that same life. The won't find it if they are not seeking. Our mistake comes when we try to force our own substitute on them.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

The bannana-peel religion and the works and shame based makes it's members feel far from safe in God's grace.

I believe you were quoting out of Ephesians. and I do belive that ABI did teach dispensationalism but didn't truly teach about the Grace of God and what it meant to a believer; the hope and peace we can have in our salvation.

Going to a meeting...will be back to continue this discussion.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

A couple definitions of GRACE that I have seen:

G od's
R iches
A t
C hrist's
E xpense

and

G od
R eaching
A ccepting
C leansing, converting, changing
E dification (growth/development)

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I totally agree with what you are saying!

But then, back again, I'm reminded of a particular church where the dynamics changed when a few of us came into the prayer room. People began to pray, but if any were absent, for some reason, it wasn't the same.

So, coming in and being on fire for God or being the salt - and if I may use an illustration - seemed like an air conditioning unit in a trailer home - when it's blowing everything is cool, but when it turns off it doesn't sustain the same degree in temperature.

I still find that amazing and still see that many people can't seem to take the initiative for themselves.

Therefore, my opinion is that, to some degree, the mindset has bred "legalism" in many cases.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

While reading this, an old Rambo song keeps going through my mind.
I can't remember some of it, but it said something like this:

Mercy, mercy, God's loving mercy
Has saved both you and me.
If we had gotten justice, we would surely be lost
But we found mercy when we knelt at the cross.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Grace is biblical, Legalism is not in the Bible & frankly, was made up by a modern day saint who was bitter at not being able to live for God on thier own terms.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Grace teaches us that there are ways we shouldn't a act, ways we shouldn't dress anymore.
Tell me you do not think that someone who dresses like a Prostitute can continue that way?
That a person who always goes to bars or clubs can continue on?

Grace "teaches" us!

You do need a change of lifestyle, now how much of a change is up for debate.

You do need a change.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Just to defend Bro Norris------as an ABI graduate and attendee of MN camp I would not apply the term legalism to amything connected with Bro Norris.
He was firm on many teachings but they weren't the typical legalism topics, ie appearance.
It was more of boys sit on one side, girls on the other; discouraged any activities with boys and girls together; as in games at camp. Really careful concerning the boy/girl separation.
But I never heard anything I would consider legalism.
Bro Norris really tried to have scriptures to support his thoughts!

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I will add----------
My mother attended ABI for 1 yr during WWII, and I in the late 60's; her comment was that Bro Norris had mellowed alot since she had attended ABI.
So maybe in the early days he had a different approach.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Interesting thread here. Grace is the most beautiful gift that God affords us. Second is the Holy Spirit. I don't agree that legalism was made up by a 'modern day saint'. I think there is legalism on both sides. One can be legalistic by saying every has to be at the same level, dress, actions, places you go to, etc. Also legalism is on the other side. Those in the lib camps can be legalistic cause they say anything goes, no one needs standards, etc. We all should have a relationship with God and He is the one that directs us.

Thank God for Pastors. But some of them take saints down a road they need not go. Roads are needed, but not all roads get you to the same place. My Pastor is pretty balanced as far as erroring on the side of Grace though he teaches standards and such. He is a 3-stepper, and he knows that I am not. But we get by just fine. There are some 3-steppers that believe hard core about standards and 3-steps, but are not legalistics. The big step in legalism is realizing that not all people are going to see thing similarly and not everyone has the same convictions. God does deal with individuals on what they themselves should do. God is no respector of persons, He deals with each of us on our level. Thank God for Grace. Grace is us receiving salvation that otherwise we would not be able to obtain without the cause of the cross.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

I like that! Great thought!

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Amen! Thank you.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Grace is progressive as it always leads to faith and faith leads to the producing of good works. Too many have it backwards and emphasize good works as a way to faith instead of faith as a means to good works.
According to Ephesians 2:8,we are saved by grace(what God does)through faith(what we do).When the emphasis is put on rules as a means to faith,faith cannot develop. Faith demands freedom to trust God independently of unnecessary law.
When religion is unduly structured,faith is aborted as people automatically lean on the structure as a substitute for leaning on God.
Neo-Phariseeism erects unnecessary laws and is regressive to the development of faith.

Nonessential regimentation always leads to the frustration of grace,which in turn leads to the killing of faith which in turn leads to spiritual shallowness.
INSTEAD OF LEADING TO MORE FAITH, NEO-PHARISEEISM LEADS TO NO FAITH.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

This is shown scripture after scripture isn't it. Even when Moses was on the mountain as God was giving him the ten commandments the people needed a God they could see and rituals they could perform to make them feel religious.

The reason for many of the unrealistic dress standards put upon us are about "Give them and inch and they'll take a mile. It isn't a sin but you know it could lead to one". The Bible teaches moderation in all things. When you constantly rail at people about how to dress, where to go, what not to do...you set them up for failure and hopelessness.

The more you love God, the more faith you acquire, the more fruits of the Spirit you cultivate in your life the more moderate you will be.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

There is a dicatomy to Grace though. The law said if you touch a in adultery women/man you were to be stoned. Grace says if you even think about a women/man that you would die in your sins with out repenting. Grace is not a get out of jail free card. Grace saves us. It is also an open line of communication to the Saviour so we can return again through repentance.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Rhoni,

You get what you preach/teach.
Preach faith for a healing-you will get the faith that produces a healing!
Preach against sin & you will get conviction.

People are sheep & sheep are dumb (with apologies to sheep) & need teaching.

Otherwise Pastors are not needed & irrelevant.

We had one new convert going around wearing "see through" blouses!
The Pastors wife went & spoke to her & it cleared the matter up.
She was sincere, but sincerely wrong.

I guess that is legalism.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Grace is NOT God's septic tank that catches all our trash.
Grace gives victory over sin.

LEGALISM IS NOT OBEYING WHAT IS COMMANDED IN THE NEW COVENANT THAT IS GRACE WITHIN ITSELF.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

So our emphasis should be on getting believers to develop a relational liaison with the vine rather than a structural relationship with man's standards. Grace will deepen your walk with the Lord because it is relational in nature and not structural. Grace is an affiliation of the believer and Christ, that is held together by love that creates good works as a byproduct rather than as required performance.
Grace has a higher standard than law because it says: Have your own way in all my life. Grace goes beyond rule books and bylaws.

We need grace to do more of the teaching rather than man regulating everything for the believer. Too many believers have no concept of letting grace develop their faith because they have been choked and hindered by man's interpretation of everything.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

Amen, Elder! I respect your position, and hope that you can respect mine.

Let me just say that obeying what is commanded in the New Covenant is not legalism, it also is not creating dress codes and rules based on a group of men's concept of how it should be applied. I believe in modesty, and in discipling new believers by example. But codifying our convictions removes grace and DOES replace it with legalism.

God bless.

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

WOW! Very well said!

Re: Grace Verse Legalism
 

On the flip side of the argument man is inherently sinful & chafes at being told what to do--by anybody!

It is Biblical to be submitted to a man of God.
Our job is to find that man that we can submit too.