All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Hasn't forms of socialism been going on for decades in the U.S.? I mean for as long as I remember people who've paid nothing in have gotten benefits and handouts funded by tax payers.


Why suddenly is it such an outrage? Is it only because it could effect the wealthy in Obama's proposal?


All of this sudden outrage is a little strange.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

You better do your homework. Obama's plan will affect almost everyone that pays taxes.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Really? Specifically, how would an 80,000 to 90000 per year combined couple be affected?

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

We have a moral obligation to help those who can't help themselves
(handicap, elderly, retired vets, deserted mother, etc)

It's the FORCED redistribution of wealth that is dangerous.
And redistributed to WHO??? Often it's to those who only want
a free handout.

Do you want your hard earned money given to those types
or to your own kids for college, or to build your business,etc ???

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

In the past, in recognition of the fact that the electorate historically is 60% conservative, and then some moderates/centrists, leftists and socialists needed to run as moderates or even as mildly conservative in order to get elected. Any socialism was held close to the vest, and put into policy stealthily.

Nowadays, with Republicans blatantly pushing for socialist policy in the mix of "conservative" agenda, the leftists must recognize that the time is ripe to take off the mask. There is a far greater percentage of the population that is open to socialist ideas, and there is a far greater percentage of the population that is oblivious and/or ignorant, than in the past, even the recent past. The implementation of socialist policies has been a creeping, incremental game. Many endeavors had to be couched in terms that would tap into white guilt, war sentiments, or civil unrest. During the long period of Democrat dominance, the radical leftists slowly infiltrated the national party and now they are in charge!

Some of us are still cognizant of the fact that back when patriotic Americans were still eager to bust communists in the chops, Saul Alinsky and William Ayers were the sorts of communists whose chops made the menu. It's clear that those whose values are wholly or in part inherited from the John Birch society or the Reagan defeat of communism can connect the dots and see that Obama is the most blatantly Marxist person to ever seek the presidency.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

When Bill Clinton raised the $250K and above crowds tax level up to 39%, I don't remember all of this boogie man socialism stuff. When GWB took office, he then lowered the $250K and above tax level back to 36%, it's pre-Clinton level.

Now Obama is proposing that rate be moved back up to the Clinton level of 39%, and now the uggie boogie socialists are forcing wealth redistribution on all of us. Why wasn't any of this brought up 16 years ago if the threats so real?

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

In the past the intention was a leg up..a helping hand. But a redistribution f wealth is an entirely different dog altogether

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

The founding fathers wouldn't even support the widows from the revolutionary war, because that wasn't what the government was for. The church should be taking care of the less fortunate. That is what charity is all about, not government. People have gotten so use to handouts they don't want to work for what they get. So many people know how to work the system and the ones who really need the help have to bend over backwards to get it. Socialism has been slowly creeping into this nation for a long time. It should have been irradiated back when it was a little seed. Now that it is a big weed it will be much harder to get rid of.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Mike, you are either uninformed about the truth or you are purposely oversimplifying the obvious in order to dilute the problem BO has created for himself by telling Joe the Plumber he wanted to spread the wealth.

Obama embraces an ideology of wealth redistribution that goes farther than New Deal socialism. His recently revealed radio interview from 2001 in which he talks about "redistributive" opportunities missed during the civil rights movement. Its an agenda to take more from those who are successful, from those who are the main job creators, from those who invest into the businesses and companies that invent, that innovate, and that produce the products that make our economy competitive and progressive.

When BO says "I am going to give 95% of Americans a tax cut" he is not painting a full picture. 40% of Americans don't pay ANY taxes. He will give them basically free handouts, cutting them a check like a tax rebate, using the money taken from real tax payers (middle class and upper class).

BO says $250,000 and up will be the only ones who pay taxes. Then in a tv ad he says $200,000. Biden in an interview the other day said $150,000. The appearance that a hidden agenda is there is what has many people concerned. Obama's strong ties to very left leaning people and organizations along with his most liberal Senator status, recently voting to raise taxes on people making $42,000, and his "spread the wealth" response to Joe the Plumber makes labeling him a socialist and his policies socialism not so strange.

Its not "sudden outrage" (a nice attempt to obfuscate), its calling it what it is.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Words for thought! Thankyou.
We have gottin so used to and expect the government to take care of everything...riiiiight.....Katrina was so well handled.
There is a difference between a hand UP and a hand OUT. We are used to the hand OUT for so long, we have no skills to acually take responsibility for ourselves. So the Obama plan is quite tempting to those who expect the government to take care of them...forever.

Family is suppose to take care of their widows and I have always felt that churchs should help the community,then very little help by the city would be need.
A hand UP, by the state/government for a time, for those who can function, and to not penalize them for wanting to fend or do better for themselves by taking away all the help all at once, right away. That's one of the reasons why some won't even try to go to work.
IMHO

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Thank you.

Besides, Obama would be the first US president to have openly associated with Socialists as much as he has done. And it dates back to his youth, as he himself admits in his book:

Obama Affinity to Marxists Dates Back to College Days:

Barack Obama shrugs off charges of socialism, but noted in his own memoir that he carefully chose Marxist professors as friends in college.

Barack Obama laughs off charges of socialism. Joe Biden scoffs at references to Marxism. Both men shrug off accusations of liberalism.

But Obama himself acknowledges that he was drawn to socialists and even Marxists as a college student. He continued to associate with Marxists later in life, even choosing to launch his political career in the living room of a self-described Marxist, William Ayers, in 1995, when Obama was 34.

Obama's affinity for Marxists began when he attended Occidental College in Los Angeles.

"To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully," the Democratic presidential candidate wrote in his memoir, "Dreams From My Father." "The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists."


http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10...-college-days/

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

The way to help out the disadvantaged (except those with mental and physical disabilities) is to teach them to fish instead of giving them a fish.

I'm for the government paying for less fortunate to attend schools, colleges and trade schools to learn a profitable trade or life skill for advancement.

Teach them to fish and you feed them for life!

Wait a minute! They already have some of these benefits! Maybe we should pay as long as they don't flunk. Maintaining a "B" average is asking too much!

Maybe class attendance shouldn't be a requirement. Come on......classes meeting before noon isn't fair to people who like to party every night!

Maybe we should give them a college degree for just trying!

If everybody was mandated to have an equal college degree, then eferyone would have an equal chance for employment. The government could require employers to pick their employees by random drawing. All promotions would also by by random drawing of names.

The Utopia of equal wealth can indeed be achieved! We'll ALL be poor!!!

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

This is true. I had a conversation with my son and one of his friends this past weekend (both are 15 years old). The friend's dad works a low-paying, physical labor job. His mother never leaves the house. They rent an apartment in a poor part of town and don't have much of their own. When he indicated that his family was for Obama because he is going to help people like them, I asked him where he thought he would get the money to do that. His response was frightening. He said, "from the rich people." When I reminded him that we are a constitutional republic, and that what he was suggesting was Marxist socialism/borderline communism, he said, "who cares. We need help."

I wasn't trying to get into a brawling argument with this kid, but I wanted to say that the help they need is for his dad to get out of the bottle and try to improve his own self and his own life. His mom needs to get the mental help she needs to get out of the house and help contribute to her family instead of being a financial and emotional drain on it. There are plenty of (admittedly socialist) programs already in place to help people that want help and are willing to do a little work. But come on!!!:snapout

I'm 41 years old, so I don't have first hand knowledge and experience of the passion with which Communists were exposed and demonized. I do remember learning of the McCarthy hearings in school, though, and even back then (70's and 80's) the liberal/social agenda had already creeped into the schools because of the spin that was put on how this was carried out. I'm not saying mistakes weren't made, but the way this is taught in school is much like how we pentecostals would look at the Inquisitions.

This is a VERY sad and troubling time in the USA. I've told my family, and I honestly believe, that if BO is elected the USA of history will be no more. The foundation has already been laid.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Hey buddy, the USA of history is ALREADY no more, in many aspects, negative and positive.

9/11 changed us forever and I don't think it necessarily had to. But it did and now we are not as free as we were before 9/11. Everyone is more careful, some say it's good, I'm sure it's not-- I just don't know how to put words to it without seeming irresponsible in terms of "security and safety".

Another glaring example is America's invasion of Iraq. With that one act, we lost years and years of credibility as a just nation in the eyes of the international community.

Most folks don't realize how unjust this action was-- not the actions of the troops, but the action of the Government that dictates the actions of the troops. Hussein got what was coming to him, but it should not have been us.


GWB's pumping of government cash into private, commercial banks HAS NEVER been done before and is THE CLOSEST TO SOCIALISM our country has lurked, ever. It happened on a Republican's watch, after 6 years of Republican domination of the House and Senate.

What he did will prove to be wise financially, but that man has violated a founding principle.

He has crossed a line that our country will never retreat from. He did so in the name of money.


Yes, the foundation for change has been laid, thanks to our Republican leadership!

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

How are we not as free? Because of the domestic and international survelliance conducted by the goverment? Please. You don't want the CIA or FBI listening to phone conversations between terrorists and thier sympathizers here in the US? They can listen to me all they want. I have nothing to hide. I'm in no danger. The only folks who should worry are terrorists and those that would aid and abet them.

Okay. Let's talk about the FACTS here. I know its not always a convenient factor when it comes to the Bush bashers on Iraq but the truth can make you free if you're willing to embrace it. First, EVERYONE, including nations that opposed our actions against Hussein, all were in agreement that Hussein had WMDs in violation of the original cease-fire agreement of 1991. The info was proven to be faulty, but no one at the time had any reason to believe it was not true.

The loss of credibility was not with the US but with the UN since Hussen had violated 17 UN Resolutions and they did not have the integrity to back up those resolutions. Bush showed leadership, with a coaliton of many nations including Britian, Poland, Spain, Italy and dozens of other countries in support.

We did not lose a reputation as a just nation, just ask the millions of Iraqis who are living with more freedom than ever, more security, democracy, and prosperity. If we were unjust, 1399, why haven't we helped out our economy by trading the so-called "blood for oil" that the Bush bashers love to chant? We traded blood for freedom and justice in Iraq, as we always do. We are rebuilding this nation, its infrastructure and its fundamental institutions for a stable and freedom loving nation. Time is proving our credibility.

Nothing Bush has done has come near FDR's New Deal or LBJ's Great Society. It is my understanding that private industry is supposed to pay the taxpayers back with interest and the ownership of the banking industry will return to the private sector. Lee Iacocca paid the US Treasury back the money we pumped into Chrysler to save it and the taxpayers actually made a profit. The S & L bailout did essentially the same thing. There is no plan or design for the government to own these financial institutions permanently.

1399 I see a trend in your posts. Much like the Obama campaign you repeat the talking points to dodge and weave and point the finger to divert the attention away from the truth. If the media wasn't so in the tank for BO and pro-Democrat, much of the misinformation out there about Iraq, the economy, the Obama campaign, Sarah Palin, etc would not exist.

Thanks for continuing to spread the false assertions and Bush bashing. Keep saying it enough times and people will eventually believe it. It has been effective for the NY Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, et al. It might be effective for you too.

Except for those of us who won't drink the Kool Aid without checking for the cyanide first.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Lol :)

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

We are not as free as in we are not as carefree. That's mainly what I was pointing to. However, there are other ways in which there is a heightened tension, call it scrutiny if you will, on some of the mundane.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Great post TR. Of course you muddy the issue with FACTS in Obama's own words. Funny how MikeinAR and 1399 fail to even acknowledge let alone respond to FACTS that fly in the face of this curious amazement at this "sudden rage" about charges of socialism/marxism. Obama's socialist/marxist leanings are well documented and apparent.

One will find it hard to see what is obvious to everyone else when one's head is buried deep in the sand.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

The WMD's argument was not worthy of an invasion, according to the U.N.
When we did it anyway, GWB gambled with our Country's credibility and our credibility suffered a black eye because of it.


Though your assessment is fair and truthful, it is not debatable that the American Government was and still is frowned upon for our actions in Iraq.

Fairly or unfairly, we loss credibility in the international community.
GWB's perceived bungling of Hurricane Katrina feeds the idea that America is more interested in fixing other countries without trying to fix her own.

We know that GWB was the last person to fail the residents of New Orleans, but that's the burden of leadership. Fairly or not, GWB's actions are perceived to have damaged badly our credibility.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Examining LBJ's Great Society, I read there was a lot of good that came out of this plan. Most of the stuff in his plan is just good policy for our Country.

I do not call this Socialism.

Furthermore, spending for this plan expanded EXPONENTIALLY under Republican leadership, that is established fact as well.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

I already acknowledged that some of Sen. Obama's past associations (alleged and confirmed), along with some of his own words (in and out of context) help to fuel the flames of the "socialism" talk.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

DB,

Do you care to expound on the MISINFORMATION that is being circulated Iraq, the economy, Obama, Palin and etc?

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

McCain keeps attacking Obama as a "socialist" and a "Redistributionist in Chief," David Gergen claims that it was Ronald Reagan who actually starting "spreading the wealth."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt40s7IKPwE

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Oh yes, David Gurgle, the former Clinton Administration employee, is really credible and objective here.

RR did no such thing. He cu taxes across the board as well as spending and the economy grew in an unparalleled manner and created 20 million jobs. Everyone did better during the Reagan years and its effect carried over into the 90s paving the way for the internet boom.

Spreading the wealth means to tax the rich (and middle class too--socialists always just say "rich" but they really mean most taxpayers) at higher rates and then give it to people who are not working, who are dependent on gov't assistance, and aren't contributing to the general welfare. Reagan never did that. Obama will.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Mike we have discussed this here before but lets consider. Repbublicans have talked about fair tax and flat tax but reality is that the progressive tax system has never really stood any real challenge from conservatives.

We recognize the need to run the government and that there is a proper role for government and that it needs to be paid for.

We also recognize that to some degree those who are least hurt by greater support are obligated to provide that in the form of taxes.

that has never been the issue.

What becomes such an issue for conservatives is the idea of what the proper role of government is.

We have certainly lived with onerous socialist government in the past. That was what Ronald Reagan and the conservative revolution was all about.

Barak Obama isnt really new, he is a return to the 1960's and 1970's. The hand wringing on the part of conservatives is all about the fact that we recognize how terrible that period was for this country!

Having a progressive tax system isnt a problem. Using tax policy to achieve "social justace" is.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

The Great Soociety was called "the war on poverty". Its goal was to eliminate poverty n the US. Many of the current entitlement programs that made people codependent on government social programs started here, the most famous of which was Welfare. 7 trillion dollars later poverty is still with us and Welfare had to be altered because it was a failed program. It was a redistribution of wealth effort that has ended up doing what all socialist programs do: fail.

I do call it socialism and so do its believers. They aren't ashamed of the label, why should you?

As far as the failure of Republicans from 2001-2006 to curb sending while cutting taxes has been criticized by many conservatives including myself. I wrote a letter to the RNC in 2006 repremanding them for their failure in this regard. We found out that "compassionate conservatism" was a misnomer. It was just liberal Republicanism in disguise.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

1399, do you realize that the word "projects" comes from LBJ's great society and his war on poverty?


Anybody who ever said they came from the "projects" didnt mean they had a fantastic education and wonderful childhood.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Great post! I especially like the connecting of Obama to the 60s and 70s and how bad it was for us then. BO's primary influencers and mentors were folks who crafted their ideology as radicals or liberals in the 60s and 70s. From his mother to Wright, from Ayers to his Marxist college professors, BOs views were developed and solidified. His leadership will be an affirmation of those ideologies.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

and lets not forget that Barak Obama wrote in his siminal book Dreams of My Father, that he chose his associates with care....

those would be radical blacks, marxist professors and structural feminists.... those are his words. He is careful about picking people like Ayers, Wright and Khalidi.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Iraq=Bush lied (flawed intel), blood for oil (we have never controlled any of their oil), we are losing the war (we defeated Hussein, we have marginalized Al-Qaeda there, Al-Sadr has been marginalized, combat deaths are way down, "The Surge" has worked and is working, the government is democratically elected).

The Economy=eight years of Bush caused the downturn (in part b/c of uncontrolled spending but the manipulation of Fannie and Freddie by Clinton Admin and Democrat resistance to reform was the biggest culpruit)

Obama=Obama's tax plan (95% tax cut is actually a handout to 40% who don't pay taxes), Bill Ayers just a neighbor (whatever), spread the wealth isn't socialism (uh-huh), Obama never knew the racist and controversial Jeremiah Wright that was displayed on YouTube (it just happens that every time Obama was in attendance JW preached "Love Your Neighbor", "I Love Israel", "Slavery: Let's Forgive and Forget", and "God Bless America")

Palin=Down's Syndrome child belonged to daughter (false), Sarah isn't qualified (plenty of credentials), Palin illegally used authority to have former BIL fired (cleared of wrong doing), Sarah spent 150K on clothes (RNC purchased clothing)

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Yep seem strange. Lets get real here, we are going to have higher tax no matter who gets in ! Otherwise how will these supposed programs come to be??? It take money and a lot of it, yes your and mine as well, yes we are going to pay the piper no matter what. DUH!! Do I like it??? Nope, but it not going away!

I for one em ready for big change, sick of yesterday leftover and stone age thinking!

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

So if I'm to understand you correctly DB, this is the first time in your memory that a person who does NOT pay taxes in, will be eligible for a tax refund from money they didn't contribute too? Is that what you're claiming? This is some kind of new fangled policy initiative from BO?

Just to be clear, I'm not defending BO. The man has said in his own words that he supports wealth redistribution in some forms and fashions. There's no argument there. I'm personally opposed to wealth redistribution. I just think it's completely hypocritical of Republicans to suddenly pretend to be outraged over "socialism", when in fact, they've supported socialists tendenices as well.

My personal belief is that this BO $1000 tax credit to people who don't pay taxes isn't anything new on the block. If you listen to right wing hacks and their fear mongering, you'd believe this is some new ideal that will translate into this country being full fledged socialist within 4 years and that's just silly.

In case they've all been under rocks for the last 40 years, we've had forms of socialism FROM BOTH PARTIES mind you, being peddled out of Washington D.C. I'm glad that suddenly we have a great sense of false outrage about it.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Easy there DB. If you're not concerned with defending your constitutional rights, that's fine. Some of us aren't exactly willing to trod all over the 4th amendment so telephone calls that the government has NO reason to believe is concerning terrorism can be recorded and listened too. If someone makes a call that's on a terrorist watch list, then by all means listen. That's not what the Bush administration proposed. Any call from outside this country to a U.S. citizen can be eavesdropped on for no reason at all. That's treasonous and unconstitutional.

On Iraq, I completely agree that GWB was given bad intelligence. The CIA and other intelligence agencies bear that responsibility.

The truth, however, is that GWB had the same intelligence that Bill Clinton had, but Bill Clinton didn't make the disastrous mistake of planning and undertaking a full scale ground invasion of a sovereign country on maybe's and probably's. GWB's collasial failure was acting on that intelligence when he shouldn't have. It's a well known fact that intelligence is wrong a great % of the time. The lesson that has to be taken from this folly is that when going to war based solely on intelligence, it's prudent to not do so unless it's a last resort. Iraq was NOT a last resort.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

No I didn't claim that it was new. I didn't claim we don't have some measure of socialism in our government. FDR guaranteed that, LBJ expanded it, Clinton added to it, Bush and his expanded prescription drug benefit, and this recent Wall Street bailout. Mike, BO is more liberal than Barney Saunders of Vermont (an admitted Socialist). I have been plenty critical of Republicans when they have violated conservative principles.

What BO is proposing (his so-called tax cut is just the tip of the iceberg) is hyper-Socialism, through the roof Socialism, bigger than we've ever had it. I was angry at Bush and GOP controlled Congress for missed opportunities and for fleecing us with compassionate conservatism and I wrote a letter to Ken Melmen to tell him my displeasure. Bush in the end is no conservative fiscally. He is a moderate at best.

Now Obama is in a different league. In his interview on NPR his worldview was communicated. He called our Constitution a Bill of Negative Rights and feels the Constitution needs to be expanded to insure redistribution of wealth. He has been tutored and associated with some of the most radical people in our country. By his own admission in his book he sought out "Marxist professors" as some of the people he wished to surround himself with.

So this characterization of a great sense of false outrage is a misnomer. I am outraged that a guy this dangerous has a chance at the White House, I am outraged that the GOP has lost its way from Reagan conservatism, I am outraged that the media continues to cover for the legitimate questions raised about Obama and I am outraged that people will vote for Joe Schmoe for President helping to insure Obama's victory when a palitable alternative in McCain/Palin is available.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

I understand your point DB. I agree with most of it.

I certainly agree that BO has expressed socialists views in the past that concern me. I just feel that given what he's proposed to this point, he's not proposed any more socialism than what this country has seen for the past 40 years at the hands of Dem's and Pub's. Will he once he's elected and in office? Well that's up for debate and yet to be determined.

I've been through the "Joe Schmoe" argument several times. Just because someone like myself isn't supporting John McCain doesn't mean I'm helping BO. I had a BO supporter tell me the other day that voting for Bob Barr was just like voting for John McCain. That argument is totally moot and it only depends on who the person saying that is supporting and wanting to win.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Higher taxes no matter who wins? Lets get real here. Who has the track record for cutting taxes and raising taxes? Reagan, W. Bush = tax cutters. Bush, Sr raised taxes as a compromise with the Democrat Congress and lost reelection. Clinton promised a middle class tax cut in '92 and NEVER gave us one, but instead gave us the largest tax increase in history. But he was magnetic and spoke well so we reelected him. I have paid less taxes in the Bush years than I ever did under Clinton and my income has been higher in this decade than last.

You're deluting yourself if you think that no matter who wins we will all pay higher taxes. On what credible information supports that idea? Is it a gut feeling? So you are ready for big change? Well President Obama will bring you plenty of it. Your dollars will turn to change. He will change marriage to include gay couples. He will change our constitution. He will change the conservative bent of the Supreme Court to ore liberal. He will change our healthcare system into a government controlled socialist program. He will change restrictions on late term abortions. He will change our relationship with Israel. He will change from his middle of the road campaign rhetoric to his true liberal, radical socialist self.

With Obama you'll get big change alright, buddy, but I am afraid it won't be the kind of change you'll be Happy Town with.

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

Lets see here, we've had Bush a Republican for eight years, we've have one of the worst economy's ever! We have gay marriage as well, we still have baby being kill on a daily basis! Bush and his nuts, have done nothing to better our health care system, more people out work then ever, people are losing their homes, going hungry losing it all, due to bad government under his watch!!!

If McCain gets in, babies will still be killed, gay marriages will go on, more Tax as well. Majority rules !!! The people want change! It's Government for the people, not the other way around!

McCain say he been in Government a long time, so his record speak truth, he done nothing for these causes! So you think it change once he in??? He had years of opportunity to change things , yet has done nothing! He a dinosaur at best! As they say, you keep doing the same thing, you'll keep getting the same results!!!

America is speaking loud and clear, CHANGE!
As for change???? I welcome it!


Almost forgot!!! As for Freedom??? We lost it under Bush and his 9/11 lies!!! We are no longer a free people , we are salves at best! So it's already here!

Re: All of this socialism talk has me wondering
 

HT, do have any idea how government works? And I thought being a salve was a good, healing thing. Is there no balm in Gilead?