Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

The one-step/three-step (among many others over the years) has made me ask this question.

Do we serve a "Gotchya!" God?

A godly man who was officially saved as a young teen and led a godly life, raised a godly family, always attended church and gave selflessly, strong and gentle in his demeanor, quick to forgive and slow to anger, and someone who has effected countless lives for the better.

Now, at age 60, he is driving home from the hardware store (he IS a practiced handy man after all) and someone cuts him off. He is in a hurry and says a curse word (in his head only since he won't actually utter it). 3 seconds later, another car broadsides him and he enters eternity within minutes as a result of the trauma.

Many who proclaim themselves to be strict "three steppers" would proclaim this a great tragedy since he is now roasting in Hell in endless torment since he died with unrepentant sin in his life. (I single out three steppers since I have found over the years that their view point tends to more often than not, lead to this idea of needing to die sinless in order to be truly saved.)

Another man comes to the breaking point in his life and cries out to God for forgiveness and "salvation". He has heard about baptism but doesn't understand its importance. All he knows is that everyone seems to be rushing him to have it done the very night he cried at the alter. The next evening, he too is in a car accident.

The funeral is not a joyous event as a great sadness lingers and many shake their heads knowing that he is now in torment due to having been killed prior to being baptized. (The fact that he has not spoken in tongues to their knowledge only adds to the sorrow of the situation.)
His story will be told for years to come to ALL new converts as a lesson of what can happen if you withhold being baptized.

So what God DO we serve?

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

This is the verse that comes to mind:


But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, long suffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth. - Psalm 86:15

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Thank you.

There are MANY such verses that can be applied.... but are not lest it upset the apple cart of doctrine. Many cannot lead others or themselves lest it be based on fear.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

I am a 3-stepper, and as for the man in your first example, he would not go to hell, I believe that the blood of JESUS covers our sin and does a work of changing us and bringing us to perfection. Should I die before I am perfected will I be lost? Not as long as I was moving in the right direction.

As for the second example- I don't believe that is possible. GOD would not allow someone to die before being able to be baptized in JESUS' name. HE kept my sister alive for over a year before she could get baptized, and she is still with us and serving the LORD at the age of 16!

-Bro. Alex

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Why does your logic in the second example not apply to the first? Is baptism more important to God than perfection?

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Yes. Baptism is the entrance into the Covenant (along with HG infilling). Some will not reach perfection, but Christ will bring them along the rest of the way thru. But should you not obey the first commands of Repent and be baptized, and if you don't receive the promise of the HG, then you're not even within the boundaries of the Covenant.

-Bro. Alex

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

This is where I bring up the other example that many think anyone who cried out to God to save them on 9/11 when their planes were going down were not saved. -Since there was no baptism pool available and no minister who could shake their head heard enough to make "tongues like" sounds come out.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

what's that mean?

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Scoff all you want, it will not change the sobering fact of the matter that souls that were in that predicament had no chance at salvation.

I have Methodist grandparents that I tell to get saved now while they can, lest they be on their deathbed, unable to get to water to be baptized, realize the Truth they passed up, and have their last moments on Earth be like the hell that they will enter into, as they realize it is too late for them and salvation passed them by. Mark 16:16 is very clear, when it comes to baptism and HG infilling (John 3:5) do it, obey it and walk right before GOD all the rest of the days of your life, giving HIM glory and keeping HIS commandments and working towards perfection.

-Bro. Alex

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

You've never been at an alter and seen the pastor or minister shake someones head so hard and shout so loud while doing it, that a few "unintelligible" words came out, at which it was loudly proclaimed that "They got it!"?

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

It means that Randy is scoffing at HG infilling, with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

-Bro. Alex

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

That was quite far from what I experienced or had seen.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Quite the contrary. I am scoffing at what modern pentecostal culture (over the past 100 years) has turned holy ghost infilling into. And think of all those who HAVE been filled yet think they have not because a minister has told them as much.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Exactly. Yes, God demands perfection, and we attain that through the covering blood of Christ...If you're not baptized, you don't have the blood applied to your life.

God IS merciful, longsuffering, kind...He is also Holy and Just and Righteous...he won't violate His word to fulfill someone's idea that God is ONLY loving and kind.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

I know what you mean, I have seen it and the tragedy about it is that the poor soul that believes what the Pastor says has no real proof for them self that they have been filled with the Holy Ghost.I've seen shaking ,rocking and even the 'pastor' saying Ba,BA,BA. to try to prime someone to speak in tounges.The bible way how ever is laying on of hands if any contact at all. Peter preached and the Spirit fell on those that heard and they spoke in tounges.How foolish we are at times.Once again tradition has superceeded TRUTH.We should focus on trying to get the person to open up his soul to God ,praise God with them and if they truely worship then they will speak in tounges as the Spirit gives the utterance.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Gods not struggling to save anyone.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Some of us cannot even see God through all of the rules and regulations... it is just a religion of the god of "Don't"... and you get more points the more things that you can think of to make rules against. The person with the most rules wins... Whoopie!

Reading some of the people's posts, it seems that they are excited when they find something new to preach against (except for the internet - it has a divine exception)... it may actually be easier to make a list of things that are NOT wrong... let's see:

Eating (definitely first on the list)
Shopping for church clothes
Reading the Bible (at least 4 hours a day)
Church (never enough church - Glooooorrraaaay!)
Prayer (at least 4 hours a day)
Sleeping (in moderation)
Work (only enough to barely support your family, and have a wardrobe about two paygrades above your actual income... anything else would be greed)
Thinking (only within the safe boundaries that the pastor allows, and only if you have time left over from the items above it on the list... if you do have time to think, you are probably not doing something else on the list often enough...)

Pretty much anything beyond this list falls into the "glorifying self" category.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

OK.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

This is also the reason that people who are told they have just received it are also told "Now remember, the devil will try to convince you that you haven't got it!". After such an experience, and once the emotions have calmed, most people WILL start to realize what happened and doubts will set in.
The bible so clearly states that the Holy Ghost is GIVEN freely and without condition (other than perhaps repentance). Some would say that baptism is required but many can point to receiving it BEFORE baptism. We have turned it into something that must be sought after! Something by which we need to learn to "relax our tongues and let the words flow!" at an alter. The TONGUES, to many, are now what saves. Any by golly, it has just turned into a "check the box off" on a growing list!

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

No, we do not serve an I gotcha God.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Been there and seen that...see the "Joe Duke thread"

If the holy ghost baptism w/ tongues was so essential ALL would recieve it.

We would not have these ridicoulous examples ofpraying thru that we all have seen.

No one would ever hear the words, " you almost got it, had stammering lips, come back next sunday night and try again.

"You are almost there"....and just where is "there"...good enough for God to save you??????

Absurd doctrine!!!

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Yes, I see things differently because I recieved the Holy Ghost at home before I was baptized [long before I was baptized] I was by myself and praying and praising God.I did not even know what really happened to me [I was chatholic and never heard of Apostolic at the time]The Holy Ghost lead me into all truth though.My wife likewise recieved the Holy Ghost at home We were praising God and she recieved .Believe it or not He came as a mightty Rushing wind,so much so that after an hour I went to get my wife some water tthat she asked for [the only words in english she said for 4 hours] I could hardly walk back into the room for the strenght of the wind.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

I do believe one speaks in tounges when filled with the Holy Ghost as an outcome ofa heart that connects with God. Tounges are just proof [outcome]that that the Holy Ghost is there.I fear in our Assemblies often they teach how to speak in tounges with tounges being the focus instead of God being the focus if that makes sense.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

That is an assumed doctrine with no proof.

The bible proof is fruit of the spirit and love for God and love for people. That is ONLY proof the bible clearly speaks of.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Call me simple but ,tell me why .

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

We have ASSUMED that all will speak in tongues when being saved because in a few instances, like the inaguaral incident on pentecost and the inagual incident of the gentile conversion in Acts 10, that ALL will always also speak in tongues.

It is a doctrine that has no solid proof, only assumptions.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

I do not believe we have a gotchya God. However I do believe there is an exact plan of salvation. All throuout the Bible God has always been specific in every plan. I am sure there was people banging on the door of the ark when it started to rain. I am not sure if someone who waits until thier on the deathbed to repent and is not baptised will be saved. Most who do this have heard the message for years just like the people Noah warned in his day. I dont believe you can skip a step. Even though we are in the dispensation of Grace I do believe in a specific plan. No one will enter heaven perfect just forgiven. Would the guy that said the curse word in his head but didnt have time to ask for forgiveness be any different from a guy who dies of a heartattack while in the bead with a mistress before he can ask forgiveness. Or is that a greater sin?!

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Ok,Howaout Mark 16:15-18

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

How many Christians do you know that have cast out demons...are those who have not cast out a devil lost?


and what of those who have not handled a rattler Iceniez?? Must be lost too.

You've vever drank poison...you're lost then too.

You see you just want ot take the "sign" of tongues her and disregard the rest.

Truth is, and this will shock you, but most all bible scholars will tell you that the scriptures you cite here are NOT found in any early manucsripts.

What's that mean you ask. Some overzeaolus scribe ADDED them later, for whatever reason he ADDED them to Gods word I can't tell you.

But i can tell John, in Revealation spoke very dimly of those who addd or subtract from Gods word.

We OP's love to preach that 1 John 5:7 is not in the early manuscript but don't like to admit that without Mark 16: 15 -18, there is NO mention of tongues in the gospels.

And these gospels were written by pentecostal preachers that had witnessed years of church history before they wrote their accounts.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Actaully tongues were given after the ascension so there would be no account in the gospels since they all end before then chronologically.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Yes, that is true. I just find it curious that Matt Mark Luke and John, who at the time of their writting of the gospel accounts, had seen the tongue talking that is recorded in Acts and in Corinthians.

Yet they speak of only faith and believing in their writings with no mention of tongues.

You'd NEVER see that today from a writer with "tongues or hell" background.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

I wasn't trying to argue I JUST WANTED TO UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU WERE COMING FROM.I do believe to the opposite however.As far as casting out demons I had someone testify in church that when a friend ofmine and I laid hands on her and prayed for her She was set free from a demon.Her words not mine.You can believe what you want .

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Yes baptism is essential. However Mark 16:16 does not carry any more weight than Rev. 3:2-5

2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Many who have been baptized and received the Spirit could still be blotted out if they do not overcome. That does not mean God is "gotcha". He has told us all along whats essential to enter Heaven. Its just we close our eyes to the truth. We pretend our works dont have to be perfect despite what Jesus said.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

RW, I don't think that God is a taskmaster or a Gotchya God. I believe that God is a God of Great mercy and nothing will change that. We can come up with examples after examples on what if's, but truth is that God is God and He is good. I believe that He will be that same savior that was on the cross and will have them in paradise.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Hey, hey, hey!!!
I used to read the bible 3 or 4 hours a day when I was in H.S. AND I have prayed 3 or 4 hours several times.....

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Not wanting to argue either my friend, just answering your question.

But you miised my point about Mk 16. It's great that you cast out a devil.

My point was, you are using this as a proof text that ALL must speak in tongues.

My point is, if it applies to tongues it also must be applied in the same fassion to casting out devils, handling snakes, drinking poison, etc

If this verse menas every christian will speak in tongues, then it alaso mean if you have not done all the other things listed as signs following that you are lost.

I spose that is OK with OP's as we have never been a group that demanded consistancy in interpeting scripture.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

I 've tried not to serve a "gotchya god" but a few have tried to cram that guy down my throat.

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Randy, I can only say what I believe the Bible says, that obeying the Gospel which is obedience to Acts 2:38 is what one needs to get into Heaven!

Judging people who haven't followed the Bible isn't our prerogative!

It is God's & God alone!

That is the God I serve!

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

Well said!

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?
 

According to my old beliefs they would both be in hell. It makes me so sad when I think of the fear that I used to live in. I lived on this performance treadmill, demanding perfection in myself, and as I was woefully inadequate my spiritual walk tended to go back and forth between me being afraid that God would catch me in a weak moment and I would end up and hell, and railing at God for His impossible demands.

It's no surprise to me that many people reach a point where they decide that as hell is inevitable, they might as well do what they will.

I myself was fortunate to come to the conclusion that either God was in fact the horrible being I had come to see Him as (in which case I wanted no part of him) or that I in fact had no idea who God was at all (in which case I needed to change my focus from trying to attain perfection through works, and instead focus on that search).