What A Mess!
 

Okay, let's say for arguments sake that the New World Order & the coming of the Lord is a way off in the distance & we are stuck here to "eke" out an existence until Jesus returns, We are still in a mess!!!!

Talk on the talk radio is about the big three Auto Makers & thier struggle to keep out of Chapter 11!

Speculation now is that Congress & the Canadian Parliament will let them go into Chapter 11, restructure, & then look for somebody to come along and get it at a fire sale cost, & buyers will relocate those plants overseas.

What does that mean?

1. 2-3 million direct & indirect jobs will be gone.
2. Pensions (including benefits which are some of the best in North America) will be gone!
3. Who will be able to afford cars if we all work at 7-11?

We are in serious times where I believe we will pray for the coming of the Lord!

Re: What A Mess!
 

Tough times is a coming.

Bad things are coming but good things will come of it.

People will find God and family more important when all of their toys are gone.

Perhaps these very hard times we see coming will not bring the coming of the Lord... but it might, indeed, bring on the return of His people.

Re: What A Mess!
 

My Dad worked for Chevy for 43 years and is looking at loosing his pension,health insurance. I think it is terrible.

Re: What A Mess!
 

I think you are right!

Re: What A Mess!
 

I couldn't agree more!

I am a Chevy/GM man myself.

I like thier vehicles.

Re: What A Mess!
 

I am against all these bailouts...

But the human factor is my weakness...

Sometimes I am tempted to be for them just because the ones really losing out are those who deserve the loss the least.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Also... they are saying no to $28b out of $700b?

Drop in the bucket....

I am really tempted to be a fan of the automaker bailout.

This is going to hit a lot of people hard.... very very hard.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Yes, in more ways than we think ,due to the trickel down.

Re: What A Mess!
 

How about instead of a corporate bail out the Government (you and I) gives to these companies, the Government gives you and I a tax credit of $5,000. for purchaseing a new car. It would immediately put Americans to work making cars, it wold fund the retirement accounts and the companies would be profitable again almost over night.
And for the housing situation, allow for a $20,000 tax credit for home purchases.
It would work and it would keep the government from holding companies and us as virtual hostages to the largess.
Spread the word!
It is so simple.

Re: What A Mess!
 

To loan money to the big three would be wise. The one big reason the Republicans won't go along is because they want to bankrupt the unions.
If people will stop listening to republican propaganda and think for themselves,things would be different.

Toyota is non union with way lower wages yet their cars are priced the same as a comparable car made by the big three. Union wages are not the cause or even part of the cause.

Toyota put their plants in right to work states to avoid paying union wages.

Texas is a state where you have the right to work for some of the lowest wages of any state. Grown men working at our refineries in Corpus for $ 8.00 Hr. What a shame yet they vote republican. Go figure!!!:crazy

Re: What A Mess!
 

So I did what you suggest. I went and figured.

Quality men of strong moral withers have decided that any Republican that promises to appoint Originalist judges figure that it might...JUST MIGHT... be a way to save another 50 million babies from the buthers knife. So, I went and figured and decided that these good 8. dollar an hour men would rather see these babies live than to work for 100 dollars an hour. Men of strong principles, morally upright, would rather see a nation go broke if given a choice, if it meant that these children could be rescued by a constructionist court.

Such quality men as your 8 dollar an hour refinery workers have decided that there are more things of lasting value than the almighty GOD OF MAMMON whom so many are so willing to worship regardless who or how many dies.

Re: What A Mess!
 

:yourock :thumbsup :highfive

VERY WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: What A Mess!
 

It's called CHOICE!. They work there because they can and choose to. Union bosses have hurt this country big time!! There was a time in the US when strong unions were needed. That is not the case any more. There are far more laws now which are for the worker and the unions have basically become obsolete except to those who run them. Union membership has drastically decreased due to good companies who don't need their services.

I have worked union and was even a union steward at one time. The only ones who really needed the unions, in my experience, were the ones who weren't willing to put in a good days work for their wages. I've never needed a union and have always been paid fairly. If not, I quit and found another job. A person with a good work ethic will rarely be without a job for long. :D

Re: What A Mess!
 

Exactly!

If you don't like making $8.00/hour working in a Texas refinery, go get some skills and find a job making more...

Why does an assembly line working doing the same mindless thing over and over and over make $40.00/hour just because the union held the employer hostage?

Why are Toyota vehicles priced the same as the big 3's vehicles? Because that's what people are willing to pay...it's just that Toyota gets to make a bigger profit...Smart business. If domestic vehicles were priced lower, foreign vehicles would have to follow suit, or offer a much better product to justify the higher price.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Let's look at this. First, assuming that Toyotas cost the same as Chevy's to make, we pay one guy $40 an hour to push a button on the Chevy assembly line. Then We pay the Toyota guy $10 - $15 to do the same thing. Now we sell the cars for the same price. Toyota makes a profit, Chevy doesn't. what should we do?

Chevy can raise prices on their cars so they make a profit, but that means everyone is buying a Toyota.

Chevy could lower wages so that they can compete with Toyota, but the unions don't like that.

Chevy could borrow money from us the taxpayer to make up for the profit they aren't making, but then that doesn't fix the problem.

Unions are strangling industries and all they do is line their own pockets. I was once suspended, wrongfully, from a union job the union was dragging their feet pretending to do something. I sent some email, made some phone calls and negotiated with management myself. They agreed to pay me for the time off and remove any negative report on my work record. The union's response? Now they wanted to talk to me, they didn't want me to take what the company offered, even though it put me back in the position I would have been in. The union wanted me to take a hit so they would have bargaining power. Out of dozens who were suspended, I was the only one who ultimately prevailed, by doing what the union was suppose to do to begin with, argue my case. Everyone else lost a weeks pay, and got to keep paying those union dues.

Re: What A Mess!
 

How many children have you adopted???????? When you have adopted 3 or 4 you let me know and I will see if I can get you an $8.00 hr job. Your sarcasm is duly noted as well as your intelligence. How does a family feed, cloth and shelter on what you think is a good wage?

What have you done to help stop abortion? Talk is cheep and I hear cheeping sounds when you post.
PS this thread is not about abortion.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Typical right wing!! Let the corporations make as much as they can on the back of the working man.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Even if there is a bailout, I have a feeling that we might only be postponing the inevitable.

I think eventually at least 1 (or 2) of the big three will go bankrupt. They're just not competitive, and compared with the Japanese car companies, have been very inefficient for decades now. Sad to say, they've gotten away for years with making an inferior product, and the chickens are now coming home to roost.

I do feel bad for all the people losing their jobs, etc, but the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the automakers themselves.

Re: What A Mess!
 

I don't believe there should be any bailout of any type to any industry without measures in place that changes the practices that got them in this position in the first place.

Re: What A Mess!
 

There is a part of me that wants to be for the unions.... and part of me that wants to be for the companies.


but here is what I know. these 3 automakers combined have in the neighborhood of 21,000 people one their books that are making $30+ per hour and they arent doing a blessed thing.

They are in what is called a Job pool (Timlan posted a link to a story about it). The report to this job pool and sit on their butts all day and watch movies and work crossword puzzels and get their check and keep their benifits.

THAT is a problem caused by 1. Unions and 2. Company Mis-management.

and that is just one of the problems.


These companies are paying their executives somewhere around Fifty million bucks a year (maybe more) all the while their stock prices are falling thru the floor. It is sick. And all us stock holders are taking it like a bunch of morons.


Light, your wrong about the Union. They need to be exploded. But you are right about the management of these companies. They need to be exploded too.


Fact is, the only way to get anywhere near fixed in this mess is to force them into Chapter 11 bankruptsy and for congress or stock holders to hold the management teams responsible and fire them all with NO parachute.

Then while in Chapter 11, the companies under new management can renegotiate all contracts (Union and non-union) and come up with a structure that keeps their workers employed while still making these companies profitable for the stock holders.


I have zero hope this will actually happen.

Re: What A Mess!
 

it might be too painful to do what you suggest where the Auto industry and the UAW is concerned.

The industry itself has lots of power and the UAW has even more power.

Congress wont go against them. period.

Re: What A Mess!
 

I agree 100% with ya Ferd!

Good honest & fair assessment!

Re: What A Mess!
 

Ron, you have one part of this wrong. Chapter 11 allows the companies to stay in business and to renegotiate contracts and restructure their debt.

It doesnt kill the company.

Chapter 7 would kill the company, liquidate the assets and end up with thse losses you are talking about.

Re: What A Mess!
 

As thier companies implode, thier clout & influence will implode as well!

I ain't seen a begger on his deathbed be able to have negotiating power with those that have the power to save them.

JMHO

Re: What A Mess!
 

One more point. The Japanese and European car companies who own and operate plants in Southern states are paying good wages and offer competitive benefits.

What they arent offering is pensions that they cannot pay and benefits to "retired" workers who are in their mid-fifties.

The business model works both for the car company and the employees and the stock holders.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Thanks for the correction!
I am a GM man myself so I do hope they don't drift away, but to continue on with no changes is not even an option for consideration.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Actually Ron, Larry Kudlow said it best last night. Bankruptsy is as American as Apple pie.


all the big Airlines have gone thru these kinds of bankruptsys and are still flying and still in business.

American Airlines is a perfect example.

the fact is, when you owe someone 5 BILLION dollars, you have clout. LOTS of clout because that someone wants their $$$$. They will do anything for you to get your money.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Two words:

Greatest Depression.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Light, please see my other post here. I dont want to seem to be just bashing unions. but I did some checking.

considering both wages and benifits, the big three auto makers pay somewhere between $70.00 per hour and $75.00 per hour.

The Japanese Automakers operating factories in the USA are paying about $48.00 per hour.

Now we can agree that they arent paying union wages. and we can agree that they located their plants in places where they can avoid their shops being unionized.

But where we dont agree is if that is fare or not. $48.00 per hour works out to be about $99,000 bucks a year without any overtime. AND these plants are often located in places where the average salrey is far below that (Like between $20K per year and $40K per year).

So the workers now making $99K this isnt a bad thing for sure. Plus Autoworkers working in these Japanese plants arent worried about their jobs being cut.

Now on the managment side, a year ago, while GM was losing money Toyota made 13 billion bucks.

http://www.gmforum.com/online/t12137/

Re: What A Mess!
 

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Goodness, it appears that I struck a raw nerve.

I just did as you told me to do. I went to figure and I came back with what I figured.

I figure that there are some decent people that care enough for the millions of children that have been butchered by the Democrats that they are willing to vote for anybody, whether they be man, beast or a robot who wll promise to appoint constructionist judges to the bench, which is the only possible way to overturn Roe v. Wade and stop the river of blood flowing from these abortion clinic.

Here is what you said that I responded to:

Cheeping sounds? :D

I agree that talk is cheap. That's why I voted REPUBLICAN since they gave me a hope that the killing can finally come to an end; the great American haulocaust. While there is not much that I can do to stop the death march of these Democrats, I did vote. I have written letters to law makers. I have begged and spoken against it with great passion. I've done all that I know to do. I would do more if I knew what I could do to stop the killing.

I figured that given a choice for working for 8 dollars an hour and given a chance to stop the death mills, these good men chose the 8 dollars an hour in hopes that there might be a cesation of the violence of the bloody knife.

In regards to my intelligence which you questioned:

"The THIEF commeth not but to steal, KILL and to destroy..." Whatever my intelligence level may or may not be, I had enough intelligence to not cast my vote with those THIEVES who have come to STEAL LIFE and KILL little children. Whatever intelligence that I might lack, at least, there is no shared death culpability on my part for having placed my active support with my vote to condemn another fifty million babies to death.

It may be that my post pricked your conscience and you felt angered from that. It happens. I offer no apology. Neither did I even mention their MAD push to give the homosexuals equal rights including the right to marry. I didn't even mention THAT. Without apologies, I VOTED AGAINST all of that chosing to work for 8 dollars an hour and LESS.

Go figure.

Re: What A Mess!
 

I wonder sometimes... if people on this forum were to use their real names instead of being able to hide behind "usernames", is it possible there would be less blatant rudeness on AFF?

Just wondering.

Re: What A Mess!
 

I hope I haven't been rude, at least not intentionally.

My name is real!:whistle

Re: What A Mess!
 

Br I don't mind giving my name at all. Change the rules so that all posters use their name. It could be a good thing it might slow down some of the idiotoutic post.

Rudeness is in the eye of the beholder sometimes. It seem one group of people can say what they want and it is ok because you may agree with them. Another that you don't see eye to eye with is rude and hateful.

Re: What A Mess!
 

Ferd your post have been as usual very sensible. There is something that you may be overlooking. When I mentioned that workers here were being paid $8.00 per hr. someone said if I didn't like it negotiate a better wage or get another job. So I ask you this: the men and women that negotiated a retirement contract with the big three years ago, what are they supposed to do? Should they be paid their retirement or not?

Today on Fox it was reported the cost for retirement was $200.00 per unit.

The problem is not because of wages but because the big three didn't build a good product and that is not the workers fault.

About 7 years ago I talked with a Mexican man who worked for GM just across the border. He said his pay was $32.00 a day yet the parts he made when sold to the consumer did not reflect his lower wage.

Re: What A Mess!
 

These wages that you list include all overhead and benefits for the workers, as well, correct?

In other words, the employee doesn't get that as an hourly wage.

Re: What A Mess!
 

I'm confused Ron what does the Canadian Parliament have to do with the US car manufacturers?

Re: What A Mess!
 

80% of all of the cars built in Canada are for export to the States!
We have huge plants in Ontario & Quebec.
I think the reason there is a majority of Cars that have been moved to Ontario many years ago was because of our Universal Health Care.

Also, GM, Ford, & Chrysler, although they are American companies, they also need assistance to keep the plants open in Canada!

Re: What A Mess!
 

Probably not. I do think that with the anonymity of the internet, the real character comes out of some.

Re: What A Mess!
 

When I was in the automotive engineering biz, before I came to the cereal biz, I spent a good bit of time in St. Thomas, Ontario at the Ford plant.

Only plant in North America where they made Crown Victorias and Grand Marquis'.

Re: What A Mess!
 

I think you may be quite right about that, Cindy.

I have no problem with people choosing not to use their own names, but I do notice that some of the rudest posts are from those who use "anonymous" usernames. I even noticed one person in particular who always seemed fairly civil when he used his real name on the forum, but once he switched to one of his other usernames , he was sometimes just outright insulting and nasty. (Very few people here knew that it was him under the new name.)

It reminds me of what I once heard a preacher say: "your true character is who you are when nobody's looking".