Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Hello, I'm not here to fight or debate but would appreciate any reference material that anyone could recommend on the subject. I am also NOT looking for prayer or pity or anything of the sort.

I wasn't sure exactly how to title this post... but this the best I can come up with.

Do you choose what you believe in, or is it something out of your control? Do you choose to like ice cream? Will reading about ice cream make you more likely or less likely to like ice cream... or is it just a part of you that you cannot control that determines whether you like ice cream.......... (fyi - this analogy is for those who's response to my post will be that I need to read my Bible or pray, which I can go through the motions of but my heart really isn't in it... which of course will mean I should just pray even harder and read my bible even more, etc. ad infinitium)...

The reason I ask is - I believe I am becoming an atheist or agnostic... not by choice, I don't believe that you actually "choose" to believe in something...... you either do believe things or you don't, and nothing short of an epiphany or paradigm shift can change that. I have questioned things my entire life, even as a child... even in Sunday School.

Religion (of any sort) seems more far-fetched the older I get. I realize that most people become MORE religious and/or spiritual as they get older, but for some reason the reverse is happening to me (I am approaching 40 if it matters).

I was raised in a UPC home, have several generations of Apostolic heritage and the majority of my relatives are UPC. I have been baptized (in Jesus name) and have spoken in tongues.

I assume that this makes me an apostate or reprobate or something of the sort. I always thought that the truth... my heritage... could stand up to questioning, however it seems to have backfired in my case.

Admin - would appreciate if you could keep my identity private (I am making some attempt to conceal it so as not to hurt family and friends, but have not covered my tracks as far as my IP address). I will also be choosing my words carefully so that people cannot figure out who I am.

All I am looking for are any books that may assist me with this subject... I would be looking for things that approach God on a logical level and not on an emotional level, if that makes any sense... and it needs to be several steps above the Kirk Cameron type videos...

I won't engage in any debate, and will try to ignore any emotional scare tactics that will surely follow my posting this.

Thank you for your time... I consider some of you my friends and find it really hard to write this, but have been meaning to do something like this for some time. I am also interested in knowing if anyone else has been through this, or knows anyone who has similar feelings and tries to hide them from friends and family so as not to upset them.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Since I work in a library I know of and have read a lot of books. These will need to be read with caution but I am not a proponent of censorship (unless we are talking about indoctrinating kids or looking at porn on the computer). I think broadening the mind can be good and make us stronger....not weaker.

Any books by Ehrman, Bart D. are very academic and will make you think. He has a video series Lost Christianities Christian Scriptures And The Battles Over Authentication by Ehrman, Bart D.

I have read a number of leaving books like Crossing Over : One Woman's Escape From Amish Life by Garrett, Ruth Irene, and Leaving church : a memoir of faith / Barbara Brown Taylor. And Leaving the Saints : how I lost the Mormons and found my faith / Martha Beck.

I did a searh on religious fundamentalism in my library consortium and came up with these ( have not read them.) : Bondage of the mind : how Old Testament fundamentalism shackles the mind and enslaves the spirit : toward a better understanding of the religious experience / R. D. Gold. And Get unstuck from fundamentalism : a spiritual journey / Robert P. Crosby.

Atheism: Why I became an atheist : a former preacher rejects Christianity / John W. Loftus. And Freedom from God : restoring the sense of wonder / Harry Wilson.

God is not great : how religion poisons everything / Christopher Hitchens.

So, these are books from the "opposing" side that will feed your mind and help you sort fact from fiction. In my personal journey with all of this, I have had to remember that the saints overcame the wicked one by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony. I cannot deny what happened to me when I was saved nor all the many miracles I have seen. This keeps me from becoming an atheist or an agnostic. What I am is a religious skeptic. I am a definite believer in God......now religion is another matter entirely. :)

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Well.. lots of stuff there in that post to chew on, Mr. Questioner, but anyway...this is my take on it. (This will be a bit long, but bear with me.)

I think that taking a 100% rational/scientific/"provable" approach to the God question will never really work. There is always going to have to be an element of faith involved. Someone could recommend all the books they want, but if you choose not to believe in your heart , it really wont matter much.

I mean lets be real here... You once got filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, and now you're borderline atheist?? The infilling of the Holy Ghost is one of the most powerful and real interactions a person could ever have with God. So then for you to now apparently disregard that and be now considering atheism (?!) tells me you never really cultivated and developed your relationship with God the way you could have/should have.
(By the way, please understand, I'm not trying to "point the finger" or sound harsh in saying this, but I'm just speaking in a straightforward way.)

If you've been in and around UPC churches I'm assuming you've been in places where the Lord gave messages either by tongues-and-interpretation, or the gift of prophecy. Personally, whenever I have been in such situations I've always been awed by the presence of God. That is something no-one can ever take away from me. Like they say "a man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience". God has been so real in my life that no amount of human rationale or skepticism I encounter from anyone will ever take away what God has firmly planted in my mind and spirit. In the end, it comes down to relationship more than anything else.

Yes I believe there are rational reasons to believe in God, and rational reasons to believe in Christianity in partiular; and there are several books and videos on apologetics etc that I have recommended in the past. I break it down on 2 levels: A/ Is there solid reason to believe there is a God who made all this, and B/ Is there solid reason for me to believe that God presents his message to mankind via the Bible and Christianity ? To me, it's a slam dunk... the answer is a resounding yes to both questions, and the evidence is rock solid.

But in the end, I dont know if that will be enough for someone who may already have a mindset to only regard the measurable and the scientific, and disregard the spiritual and experiential. In other words, reading books will probably not lead a man back to relationship with God if his heart is closed to the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

Those who regard the intellect over everything else sometimes struggle with issues of faith, because in our walk with God, faith simply trumps intellect. What I mean by that is, there is always a "tough question" that someone can ask you that you wont know the answer to. If you let that kill your faith, you wont really be able to have a walk with God, because none of us have all the answers. In my own case, I've done a lot of reading, and have been able to answer many of the questions skeptics ask about God, Christianity, etc, but I know I dont have all the answers -- nobody does. And the fact that I cant give a "pat answer" to a particular tough question will never override my faith in God, because 1/ my relationship with God is solid 2/ my experiences with God are irrefutable. (I pray in tongues almost daily, and know that the origin is supernatural, and not from my own mind... and I've had people give me a prophetic "word" from the Lord that I know could only have come from Him. and 3/ I believe that the historical and scientific evidence on record overwhelmingly validates the Bible and the Christian message, regardless of whether I can answer every "tough question or not". But my faith in God is not based on such evidence. Such evidence only serves to strengthen the faith I already had in God anyway.

But anyway, as far as your question about references....
I would recommend "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for a Creator", both books by Lee Strobel. Also "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" is a good book... and there's also a video by the same title that's available free online HERE. Also I like a lot of the Creation Science videos by Kent Hovind, among others. There are many available on google video, including one of my favorites by Hovind, "Lies in the Textbooks" , found HERE.

But all that being said, yes, I'd recommend you pray also... in particular regarding your past experiences, in terms of what you've experienced and/or witnessed in your time growing up in Pentecost, and let the Lord confirm in your own mind and spirit that it was really Him that you had an encounter with. Fact is, after reading whatever books and reference materials you get your hands on, you're still going to have to end up talking to Him, and allowing Him to touch you, and bring you to where you need to be spritually.

Hope this helps somewhat.
Be blessed.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

TRFRANCE, you said a mouthful in your post. Could you explain your definition of 'faith' and is it antithetical to 'reason'?

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I'm not saying this applies to this instance, but what if someone who was raised in the church was pressured to speak in tongues and then someone said "You just got the Holy Ghost!" I've seen this happen to my own kids. It makes me sometimes wonder if they got what I got.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

You choose to believe FOR YOURSELF what you will believe. But at the same time, you must realize we cannot choose what is truth. Truth is truth, no matter if we believe it or not. But it is our choice to believe it or not.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Thanks all, I'll give more time for comments and then respond... there are some subjects that I can't really discuss without starting a debate, such as witnessing tongues my whole life, etc. (which I have) so I will try to avoid those...

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I believe one has to choose to believe.


There have been times where I have rationalized, "there is no god." These were times of great pain and loneliness for me and for my family. My Dad, who made me feel like he hated me when I was a kid, my Dad is an Apostolic Pastor who has very quirky ways and has Pastored for over twenty years, never having more than 50 church members at one time. He works so hard, but his efforts seem vain. I got involved with the UPCI as a young adult and on more than one occasion, I've felt betrayed by swallowing hook line and sinker all of my experiences, thoughts, teachings as God inspired.

So one day, life just evolved into something really bad and depressing. Things were just so out of whack, made some really poor lifestyle choices and bad financial decisions and all that I knew of and remembered of God (good and bad) seemed out of touch with that current reality.



But, by God's Grace, I have chosen to believe.

He gives everyone that same Grace-- the opportunity to choose to believe or not to believe.

I have rationalized what if Christianity is just one gigantic manmade construct. I decided that even if it was, it's a great life to strive for.

It's good to have a purpose and a sense of the eternal active in your mortal life. I find my sense of the eternal in knowing Jesus. He gives me hope on my darkest days, when the good things evade me and it seems like I'll always grapple with the same issues.

Just this morning, God brought to my mind the 145th division of Pslams, verses 15 and 16.

"The eyes of all wait upon thee, and thou giveth them their meat in due season. Thou openest thine hand and satisfiest the desire of every living thing."

He is not just my source for stuff, He's my best friend, though often I'm not a good friend to Him. I'm working on that, even today.

Without faith in God, I'd be a very bitter and angry man. I'd probably be a dead man. I've rationalized this too and I am telling you the truth when I say I'd be dead already, if it had not been for the blood of Jesus.

I realize these things and maybe your situation(s) are completely different from my experiences that caused me to question.

However, if you continue to choose to believe in God, believe that He will do for you what is needed-- what you can't do for yourself.


One day, you're gonna need Him. You're really going to need Him.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I think the biggest question is, why would you choose not to believe?

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Well, I guess 10 people can give you 10 different definitions. And even the same person could give you different definitions, depening on the situational context being discussed...

But in a nutshell, I primarily think of faith on 2 levels.
Faith that there is a God up there to begin with.
And Faith IN God, (That is, faith that God will provide, as the Bible says... faith that God is just and will always do the right thing by me, etc)

Obviously one wont have faith IN Him, if they don't even believe he exists.

So in the context of what the original poster is referring to, I'm really talking primarily about faith that He is real, to begin with. And secondarily, faith in the sense that we should believe in His Word, and the path laid out by his Word, the Bible, to the extent that we would choose to give our lives according to the Biblical path given to us.

--------
Is faith antithetical to reason?
I'm not sure what angle you're coming from with that, but I'd say it's not necessarily antithetical to reason, although in the minds of some, it could be.

For example, in the minds of some, there cant be a God, because "why would he let innocent people die in earthquakes?", etc. Thus they think faith in God defies reason and is irrational. Simply because they cant wrap their minds around the idea that a God could allow innocents to die in natural disasters, they feel that faith in God is unreasonable.

But faith in God says that even though I might not be able to explain to your satisfaction why God would allow innocents to die in earthquakes, it doesnt negate my solid belief that He exists, nor that He is good, even though I cant explain all of His acts, or why He allows some things to happen.

Hope that makes sense somewhat.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

You've given a definition of what faith does but I'm interested on what faith is.....

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

CNE, that is a beautiful question, if I may say so. Simple and direct, it cuts to the root of the issue.

Questioner, I'm intrigued by that. What would make you choose not to believe?

Or, if I can pose a similar but slightly different question: What experiences/thoughts/ideas have brought you from "there" to "here"?

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Sorry, bud.
I don't know what other answer to give you.

You asked me how I defined faith.
I thought my meaning was fairly clear from that last post.

To me , faith is 1... believing that God exists.
And 2... faith is believing that God is who He said He is, and that He'll do the things He said in His word that he'll do.

Maybe someone else can define it better for you.
But thats really all I've got.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

faith is a lifestyle.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Many describe it as a form of irrationality...a leap into the unknown.....

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

To me, faith is taking hold of that which we do NOT see, and holding on to
that which we do NOT see, UNTIL, that which we do NOT see, we DO SEE!
We hold on to faith (don't see) by HOPE, UNTIL we SEE that which we have
been believing for. When it appears, we no longer need Faith. The substance
of things hoped for, has appeared or been made manifest!

Heb.11th chapter, was a favorite that was introduced to we older siblings, as
small children. My eldest brother could quote the entire chapter at about 9 or
10 yrs. of age. I could quote some but not all, at around 8 yrs. old. Faith comes
by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Jesus told his disciples, "The words
that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life (lifegiving). Today His words
still give us instruction, inspiration, correction, to mature us, to throughly prepare
us for all good works.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I guess I can see why some would say that.

As Christians worship a God we've never seen, and are trying to get a heaven we've never seen, and avoid a hell we've never seen either.

Still, the Bible tells us that "without faith it is impossible to please God".

Those who don't believe now will believe eventually...Those who choose not to serve God they cant see will eventually see him on judgment day. But then it'll be a bit too late. That's going to be a sad day.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I'm at a loss as to how to answer that since I stated in the first post that I don't believe I have chosen whether to believe or whether not to believe... that is like asking whether you like chocolate ice cream or not. If you do like chocolate ice cream, why did you choose to like it?

I will say... carefully... that I do not feel that religion or spirituality has anything to offer me, and do not feel that ministers or being subjected to a minister would benefit me in any way. Being raised in a preacher's home, I was usually annoyed by those people who would come to the preacher for everything and could never figure out why they could not make any decisions on their own, etc. I also found that it was easier to use shows like "Leave it to Beaver" or "Andy Griffith" as a litmus test for normalcy because I felt my Pentecostal upbringing was anything but normal. And no, I didn't have a television growing up... my close friends find it odd that I would try to apply a template from a tv show as my litmus test for normalcy... I didn't even realize it was odd until they pointed it out.

I'm usually able to make the right decisions on my own without having to go to someone else for assistance in making those decisions. If for some reason I make the wrong decision, I accept responsibility for the wrong decision and try to correct the behavior as needed.

I may also be a Deist or Humanist... I'm really not clear enough on the differences of all the different terms to know which label fits, or if I am some hybrid of several labels.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Questioner...how seriously do you want to discuss this? I won't openly...I just won't put myself out there like that. But I'm willing to PM or email.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I'm not sure yet... I feel exposed already just from what I have already shared. I will think about it. Thanks for taking the time to correspond.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

So this goes beyond whether you have ever believed for yourself? But rather, if any belief is a choice?

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Cindy, I understand your question, and to those who DO believe, the question makes perfect sense.

But, unfortunately, to someone who is struggling with their faith, this doesn't answer the question.

It's like someone who is sold on Ford cars trying to convince a GM driver to convert by asking, "Why WOULDN'T you want to drive a Ford?" To you, it's obvious, but to someone else, the answer is not that simple.

Peter said that we should always be prepared to "give unto every man a REASON of the hope that is within you", not necessarily a reason AGAINST not having hope.

Hope you understand my post, and I'm not criticizing your response, but as one who has been thru what Questioner seems to be going thru, this may be a bit of a conundrum.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Oh I sure do, I have been there myself. Wondering why I believed. Or if I believed for myself, or just because I was raised in the faith. It all comes down to Jesus for me. And belief is a choice I make. It is not natural to sinful man to believe is it? So we choose to, or not to believe. I choose because I don't just believe IN God, but I BELIEVE God.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I understand.

Please know any identity would be kept confidential...

And know that there's no pressure from me. Your path is your path. But you sound like you could use someone to speak with openly. There's not a thing you could say to me that'd cause me any concern in any way.

Ok, maybe one thing...if you are plotting the destruction of the human race I'm probably not interested in talking to you. :tease

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Take the bible as it written and rightly divide it don't read it and filter it through a commentary,or a manual but take the word,without any religious bias.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

RD: Hebrews 11:1 is the Bible definition of faith. If you like apologetics Faith Has its Reasons by Rob Bowman discusses reasoned faith through many methods of apologetics and those who teach them. I've found that these type of things help my faith, they strengthen it, but they do not sustain my faith when doubts come my way.

Questioner: I was an atheist before becoming a Christian and the thing that opened my heart to the possibility of the existence of God was an EXPERIENCE with God. I hated talking with Christians about God and would rudely walk away. The word of God, reading the words of Jesus in the gospels, converted me (I didn't come to the Lord in a church). Even now, my experiences with God (and to a lesser extent with the power of darkness) sustain me when doubts come as to God's existence and from time to time they do. The same spirit of atheisim (or whatever you want to call it) still tries to fill my mind with doubt but I've had too many experiences with God now that all I have to do and what I've done all along is REMEMBER all the times that God has drawn very near to me or healed me or kept me and the doubts disappear quickly.

Once I came to believe in the existence of God and that Jesus is God....the very spiritual experience I had when I was baptized and when I spoke in tongues the first time while praying for God to use my hands as his own convinced me that the Bible is the word of God...because I experienced it for myself. So when the devil comes with more thoughts that God doesn't love me or God is not good... I have other experiences with God that in my heart tell me that the Bible is true because it's words have been confirmed by experience and therefore I can trust it and not the foolish lies that come into my mind from the deceiver.

Many will disregard what I say because experience is subjective, I don't care. :)

Taste and see that the Lord is good and God is not a God who is afar off but a God at hand. Seek Him with all of your heart and you will find Him. Prove Him by obeying His word. He is extremely merciful. Questioner, you will find NOTHING in being an agnostic or an atheist. I didn't realize to after becoming a Christian how lost and without hope I was when I believed that when we died, that was the end of us. I truly hope and pray you don't go there.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

If belief was simply a choice I could make, things would be a lot easier for me. These are the kind of answers that turned me completely away from Christianity. And I know the people offering them to me meant no harm, and I know you mean no harm. But this answer wasn't enough for me, it still isn't enough for me.

It's like taking someone who's colorblind out and watching a sunset with them. No matter how much you describe what you're seeing, what you're viewing, what you're experiencing, it won't mean anything to that person. It doesn't diminish your experience in any way. It just leaves them without that shared point of reference.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

THIS is the key, right here, Miz!

This ties into TRFrance's comment about the man with an experience never being at the mercy of a man with an argument!

Igor Sikorsky, inventor of the helicopter, had this plaque hanging on his wall:

(Paraphrased) "Due to the size and weight of its body in proportion to the area of its wingspan, scientist have concluded that the bumblebee cannot fly. Of course, the bumblebee does not know this, so he goes ahead and flies anyway!"

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

To answer your question: if we don't choose what to believe then we have become a fatalistic. In effect, we then believe in fate (whether we admit it or not) and that our future is totally out of our control and is in the hands of something other than ourselves.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

But, isn't that in effect what we believe when we have faith in God?

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I think being raised in UPCI culture; knowing how to dress, how to act, how to sing, how to praise, and how to be - does not give you a true relationship to Christ.

God is more than up to the challenge of showing you who He is and how much He loves you. Just ask Him to show himself to you...He will.

Questioning does not make you reprobate nor an atheist...it makes you human:friend

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

That was an answer to Questioner's initial question, " Do you choose what you believe in, or is it something out of your control?".

I believe God allows or gives us the latitude to make our own choices (I'm not in anyway Calvinistic) and depending on the choices we make, He guides our steps through circumstances to bring about the law of reaping and sowing. I also believe the choices we make are TRUE choices despite God having perfect foreknowledge of them.

Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Unfortunately, Questioner, seems to think we have no choice in what we believe. He's becoming fatalistic.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

People choose what they believe...but it doesn't really matter what one believes now does it? The truth lines up to the Word of God.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Gotcha.

So, what you're saying is that we all are placing our faith in SOMETHING, just some trust in fate, and some trust in a God who is directing our steps?

I would agree with this, if that's what you're saying.

As David said, "Some trust in chariots and horses, but we will trust in God". (Paraphrase)

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Yes, that's what I'm saying. LOL

Sorry to be so confusing!

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

I do understand that. We come from different perspectives. I guess we all have to have a reason.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

YOu weren't confusing, I'm just trying to multi-task!:dance

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

Questioner, if you are looking for books, especially by Christian authors, in addition to TRFrance's suggestions, you might want to try Mere Christianity by CS Lewis and Warranted Christian Belief by Alvin Plantinga. There are also many Christian apologetic sites online. Here's some to get you started:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer

http://www.paulcopan.com/articles/

http://www.4truth.net/

http://www.irr.org/

http://www.bethinking.org/other-religions/

http://www.str.org/site/PageServer

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

This person is saying it isn't necessarily a choice but that their logic and experiences have brought them to this place.

Re: Do you choose what you believe in?
 

To not believe is a choice.