What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

How long should a pastor stay at a church under these circumstances?

He's been pastor for almost a decade.

- Membership is 30.

- There is minimal compensation and he works a secular job fifty hours a week.

- The church building is an embarrassment, but paid for.

- Started the church from nothing.

- He pays some of the church bills out of his own pocket.

- The church members are apathetic.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Sure he should stay. The solution here is for someone else to start a new church in the same town.

Capitalism always works, in the end.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Is there somewhere else for him to go?

Would he be stepping down and taking a break from pastoring, or just moving on?

Would someone else be stepping in over the church if he left, or would it dissolve?

What steps has he taken to inspire the members?

What steps has he taken to inspire himself?

What is he doing to build himself up?

Working 50 hours a week is hard on it's own. Add pastoring to that mix, is he burning out? Especially with apathetic members.

Or, is his working and being unable to pour his time and energy into the church part of the apathy problem?

How long has he been at that church?

Are there any members who are not apathetic who are supporting him and the church and would be willing to take steps necessary to move in a different direction than the current apathy?

Just the first few questions that came to mind. It sounds like a rough situation all around, and I don't know enough details...

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Sadly, God might call him to stay and serve that congregation his entire life long. He must do as the Lord leads him.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

I'll add that they started the church from nothing.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

He has begged God to release him, to no avail.

He still has a burden, but struggles with feelings of failure.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

A membership of 30 in 10 years. That doesn't sound so bad. There are churches smaller than that that have been around more than 10 years.

When he came there to start a church, was that a burden and calling from the Lord? If so, has that calling or burden shifted to another location? Or, is God telling him, we've given it 10 years, that's enough, close the doors and give up. Or is God telling him, you've done well for 10 years, you deserve a rest, turn this over to someone else.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

It sounds like God hasn't released him yet.

In other's experiences, when God hasn't released you what advice can you give when you are depressed?

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Lots of good questions and thoughts.

One thing to consider is if he is working that many hours he probably couldn't handle pastoring more people.

If he could find a helper that would be great.

For instance, find a bible college kid to help him in the summer for room and board and a little pocket money.

He could help him pray, do some preaching and give the pastor a break.

And he oculd do the outreach during the summer.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Ester- I was thinking along the same line- recruit a family if possible from a Bible School or a larger church who want to be used in a church. They could travel on the weekends to the church or in a best case relocate. It would give the pastor a break, infuse new people and ideas into the church and could energize the pew warmers.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Noah only convinced seven other people. Was he a failure?

If God has not lifted the burden, keep on keeping on......no telling what God has in the future!

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

This is a very hard situation...one that I can relate to, having been there to some degree. Only he can answer this question. He needs to consider that maybe his own desire to leave means something. He does need God to release him if he is to go but he also needs to understand that his own desires and perceptions could be God talking to him. I understand the heavy burden and toll this takes. His health, his family, his life is more important than this church unless he is absolutely convinced God wants him there. He may be confusing God's will with the church's will. It can be incredibly hard to leave.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

I am not judging this man.

However many pastors stay to carry the title of pastor.

So to family and friends they have appearance of being a pastor...

When really it is nothing close to the truth...

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Can this also be a time when God is trying to show the person something about themselves?

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

he needs an assistant pastor to lighten the load. Someone young, fresh, vibrant....

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

It could be a whole lot of things. It's hard to say what it is for somebody else without knowing lots more details.

I wish it was as easy to get assistants and stuff as these suggestions make it sound!

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Sis. Renda, I thought it would be interesting to look at these points
as if this was a family, a home instead of a church.

How long should a father stay at a home under these circumstances?

He's been a father for almost a decade.

- Family membership is 30. (Wow! This man means business. What
does his wife think. How many sets of twins, triplets, etc.)

There is minimal compensation and he works a secular job fifty hours a
week. (He is trying to provide for his family. My, 30 family members
in 10 yrs.)

- The home is an embarrassment, but paid for.

- Started the home from nothing.

- He pays the family bills out of his own pocket. Well that a man's
responsibility, to provide for his own.

- The family members are apathetic.

I would say this man, and most certainly his wife, need a lot of encourage-
ment from someone who has been there, done that. I believe I could provide
some encouragement to that father and mother! How! By telling them about
my father and my mother. And how their Heavenly Father brought them through.

When Dad started the church we attend, he started it with his wife and
eleven children. In ten years, I am sure there was not a huge crowd.

But 50 yrs later, there are a lot more members under the pastors that have
been there since Dad went to be with the Lord.

But I thank God that in that 50 yrs. my husband and I, our six children,
their spouses, their children, and one granddaughter in law, number 29
from this church that started with a family, a man and woman with a desire
and little else.
(one son and his family of 6 worship in a neighboring city a few miles away.)


The apostle Paul said though you may have ten thousand instructors in
Christ, yet you have not many fathers. Fathers beget sons and daughters.
Instructors instruct but fathers produce.

Just some thoughts,

Falla39

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

No disrespect, but the analogy breaks down when comparing it to a family.
You can't "breed" a church.
It sounds like a lot of well meaning people are stuck in a rut. What is usually required in these situations is some sort of shake up. Another person starting a similar church in the same town will often get things going. Two or more churches are often greater than the sum of their parts -or members.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

it's not??

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

I haven't found it to be.

How do you get one of these people to come and assist, help, etc.?

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

hmm. That's a hard one. I know of several who are equipperd, but have no desire to leave where theyre at. too bad

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Exactly.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

do you need an assistant?

a lot of things ppl have to consider...
dont want to uproot family
job climate
etc

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Bro. RandyWayne,

The apostle Paul asked a question in 1Timothy 3:5,
(If anyone does not know how to manage his own house, how can he take
care of God's house?)
There are similarities between the natural (which is first) and the spiritual
(which is afterward).

If you want to grow something you have to sow something! No sow, no
grow, family or church.
No, you can't "breed" a church, that's what you do with dogs. when you
want to raise dogs. You could tell us all a lot about that perhaps.

But we're speaking of a growing a church! How can you grow a church when
you haven't grown a family. Very similiar. One is natural and the other is
spiritual. You sow the seed of man to make a family. You sow the Seed of
God to make spiritual babies.
Every man cannot make babies for various reasons. If a man does not have
the Seed (Word of God) in him, he won't be making spiritual babies either.

I have been around children all my life. 10 siblings. We have children. Raised
children. Carried and birthed children and have 20 grandchildren. So, I know a
lot about children. I have been there, done that and have the proof. Our
natural children are now spiritual children. Likewise our grandchildren, that
are mature enough.
I don't think you could really understand where I'm coming from because you
haven't been where I've been in life.
Neither could I identify with the places in life you've been that I haven't.

I worked beside my pastor father and my mother in pastoring the church
they founded 50 yrs. ago. They are gone but we remain. I have been here
the whole time. Have seen the process of growing a family as they taught
by example. Have with my husband of (will be 50 yrs this July), raised our
children, all adults with children. I have seen the similiarites in raising a
natural family and a church.

My parents didn't take a pastorate that someone had already pioneered
and done the hard part. No, they built it from the "ground up". GOD was
our refuge and strength, a very present help. To Him be the glory for the
natual and the spiritual heritage. We have a goodly heritage.

I trust I haven't been offensive in my way of explaining this. It certainly
wasn't intended to be so.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Amen! Especially to a remote villiage of about 600 in S.E. Alaska.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Bro. ChTatum,

I believe it was 120 yrs. Noah spent building an ark for a flood
when he had never seen rain.
Then as you mentioned, he only convinced seven other people.
But that was HIS family. He built an ark to the saving of his OWN
house.
The Bible says that every man shall bear his own burden.
What is a man's own burden! Could it mean that he is responsible
for what he birthed. If he birthed it, it's his baby! His responsibility
to see that it is trained up in the way it should go. So that when
that child is grown (mature), he will not depart from the right path.

Just some thoughts!

Falla39

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChTatum (Post 675993) Noah only convinced seven other people. Was he a failure? If God has not lifted the burden, keep on keeping on......no telling what God has in the future!

Brother,

I watched my parents struggle for many years, and worked alongside them
as long as they lived. The church grew in the years after they were gone,
but after 50 yrs., today my husband and I sit together with three generations
of our own family that remain from those humble beginnings. How I thank God
that they did keep on keeping on, until God called them Home.
Dad not only built a place of safety for his own house, but for mine also!
And many others!

Falla39

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

If it was me I would pray and seek God for a answer.Of course if God has planted you there and He isn't finished with you there,then one must be content and do the best they can with what they have to work with.
Little works need sheperds too.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

I would say he needs to seek God for change. Something needs to change.

If your not where you think you should be in your life with God then its time to change what your doing. Reminds me of Hannah. God closed her womb.

7 This went on year after year. Whenever Hannah went up to the house of the LORD, her rival provoked her till she wept and would not eat.
8 Elkanah her husband would say to her, "Hannah, why are you weeping? Why don't you eat? Why are you downhearted? Don't I mean more to you than ten sons?"
9 Once when they had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh, Hannah stood up. Now Eli the priest was sitting on a chair by the doorpost of the LORD's temple.
10 In bitterness of soul Hannah wept much and prayed to the LORD.
11 And she made a vow, saying, "O LORD Almighty, if you will only look upon your servant's misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the LORD for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head."
12 As she kept on praying to the LORD, Eli observed her mouth.
13 Hannah was praying in her heart, and her lips were moving but her voice was not heard. Eli thought she was drunk
14 and said to her, "How long will you keep on getting drunk? Get rid of your wine."

It says year after year she done the same thing. Hannah finally done something different, she changed how she approched God, changed her whole attitude, change her worship to HIM, so much so that Eli thought she was drunk. (in other words Hannah may have been the first Apostolic in worship, ..lol)

If what your doing ain't working then its time to change, its time to approach God a different way with a different offering. Its time to change.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Farming: Doing the same thing over and over while awaiting the harvest.

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." (Galatians 6:9)

It's easy to criticize, but, if the rest of the UPC had accomplished as much as this man in the last ten years, it would be ten times the size that it is now. A church of 30, a mortgage free building, and all while working 50 hours per week. I wouldn't be in any hurry to stand beside this brother on Judgement Day.

"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Renda,
I didn't read the responses prior to posting this. This is my opinion: If the church has not grown in 10 years and the membership is not vested in it - then the Pastor needs to look at why he continues to hang on to the church. The secondary gains he gets for supporting this church could be: 1] His recognition as a Pastor, 2] Pride, or 3] He was self called and not God called.

This Pastor needs to search his heart and find out the true answer between he and God and then make adjustments where necessary.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

This seems like an excellent time for a repost. (It's a lot nicer than what I'd really like to say.)

"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase.
One may sow the seed (Word of God), another waters and
nurtures what has been planted, but God must give the
increase.
Just as he that comes to Christ must first BELIEVE that HE
IS, and that HE is a rewarder of them that DILIGENTLY SEEK
HIM. He repents (his part), and is baptized (the preacher's part)
in the name of Jesus, for the remitting of those sins, and then
God fills (God's part) him with the Holy Ghost. Try as we may, we
cannot do God's part. We are laborers TOGETHER WITH GOD!
And IF the Father has not planted, try as you may, it will still be
rooted up. The WILL of GOD is so important. Wise men and women
still seek Him, with all their hearts.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Stephanas,

What I hear you saying is that you disagree with my post. This is your choice. The bottom line which I am not sure anyone can disagree with, the point I was making is: that this is between God and the Pastor.

Blessings, Rhoni

P.S. I stand by my post. There are churches on every corner in the U.S.A. and if you work for 10 years to pay an empty building off that is in need of repair, and the members are not vested in your vision then it is time to sit down and revisit your calling.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

It would be nice to have somebody around willing to help with some things. :)

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Think of those who by faith endured, believing in He who had promised.
Abraham waited for the son God had promised. Got weary in waiting on
the promise and with Sarah's help, tried to "help" God. But God still kept
His promise.

King Saul became impatient and decided to not wait but go on his own.
Lost the kingdom and his life.

But in the book of Hebrews there is a list of those who by faith won
victories, some didn't live to receive them but had hope of a future
prize. He that shall endure unto the end shall be saved.

To those who will wait upon the Lord, and to those who do not grow
weary in well doing, in due season (God's time) they shall reap, IF they
faint not.

No time, dear friends, to faint. It just could be that over the next hill
we'll be HOME!

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Did you read the first post?

The Church was built from nothing.

A worldly model of "success" discounts the Master's right to distribute as little as one talent to His servants. The question is, "Has this brother been faithful to the work that God has given him?" If the record of accomplishment that has been listed isn't "faithfulness." I don't know what is.

The only way to conclude that there are churches on every corner in the USA is to conclude that the doctrine taught in those churches is of no importance. If "Jesus Name" doctrine matters, there are lots of areas where churches are few and far between.

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

Stephanas,

There is no one discounting faithfulness of the Pastor or Christ's multiplication. I am not sure why you are taking a defensive stance on this issue. Once again, I will say, the calling and direction of the Pastor is between he and God, not anyone on this forum.

It appears this issue is close to your heart. I think your posting is clouded by your perception as it applies to you. I intended no judgement in this matter that I know little to nothing about. An opinion was asked - I gave it.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: What Would You Do if This Was You?
 

How does one define... "The church members are apathetic"