Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongues?
 

We know that miracles, healings, signs and wonders can be present in the lives of Christians who have not been filled with the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues as evidence). Also, prophecies were given by many who did not speak in tongues.

Here are the questions.

If we assume speaking in tongues at Holy Spirit baptism is a different and separate occurrence than speaking in tongues that are subsequently interpreted, is it then possible that one may "give a message in tongues" and not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Does operating in this gift necessarily imply that the speaker also received the Holy Spirit? Why when one has the gift of healing or knowledge then does it not imply the same??

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Don't we normally declare someone has the Holy Ghost when they speak in tongues?

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

It is also normally declared that speaking in tongues initially (at Holy Spirit baptism) is NOT THE SAME as the gift of tongues.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

A good question...

I always wondered, if it is expected to speak in tongues when one receives the HG, why is it also not required that that they be healers by laying on of hands when they receive. AFter all, it does say "these things shall follow" those who believe, right?

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

No. No way. It can't happen. A person that does give a message in tongues either has the Holy Ghost, or is not really speaking in tongues by the Holy Ghost. People can fake speaking in tongues.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Gifts of the Spirit are not operated in by those who don't first HAVE the Spirit.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

A resounding Amen!

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Is it possible for someone who has not spoken with tongues to have the Spirit dwelling in them? In other words, can Jesus come into a person's heart without that person speaking with tongues?

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

No.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Are you then saying those who have apparent gifts of healing, discernment, knowledge etc., yet do not speak in tongues, are also faking it?

Do we discount miracles if they occur in memberships of non Pentecostal churches?

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Wow! this is a very strong stance.

I could not agree with this, neither was it my own experience.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

A miracle can occur wherever God pleases. That doesn't mean it's a spiritual gift.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Some things are black and white, that is one.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

When Jesus came into my own heart I was never the same. I was converted, the word was illuminated to me. I loved to pray and felt the overwhelming presence of God. I was compelled to make restitution to those I had wronged and testified publicly to many of my peers at church and work.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

I do understand the sovereignty of God and his ability to do as he will.

The question asked is if God uses men specifically in the gifts to administer healing (laying on of hands, prayer) or in giving a message in tongues, or being a facilitator in miraculous works, if they have not received the evidence of tongues in Holy Spirit baptism.

If such a person lays hands on the sick and they are healed - is that not the gift of healing?

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

I wouldn't personally classify it as such.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

if a Person really is operating in the gifts of the Spirit then they must have THE Spirit already

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Just because the Lord is working on someone's heart doesnt mean they've received the baptism of His Spirit.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

God responds to faith, and God can respond to any prayer to Him that's made in faith.

That doesnt mean the person who "lays hands" and prays for healing has the spiritual gift of healing.
That's the key word there: "apparent".

Its been known that Catholic priests have been "apparently" casting out demons for centuries. And these are men who dont have the Holy Ghost.

Just because it seems they're casting out demons doesnt mean they have the Holy Spirit, or have a real relationship with God.

Things are not always what they seem.

And lets not forget Jesus' words in Matthew 7:

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

This has been debated a million times over,but I don't believe one can truly and genuinely operate in the gifts of the Spirit without having received the baptism of The Holy Ghost.
Sadly many fake these gifts and it's hard to explain how sometimes people who live immoral lifestyles seemingly function in the gifts,that's why I say these sorts are not properly operating in the gifts.
People who are living immoral lifestyles and then try to function in the gifts,are not vessels of honour in the body of Christ.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

God honors faith,and He will move for people in response to their faith,and grant non-spirit filled people healing and miracles but can one have a gift of the Spirit without having the Spirit ?

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Let me try to reword this.

Are any of the gifts of the Spirit evidence of the Holy Spirit in the individual's life?

For those who have said some of these can be faked - I agree.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

It could be, but doesn't necessarily mean so. If a person has never spoken in tongues, yet apparently has the gifts, it doesn't mean they have the Holy Ghost.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Yes.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

I have friends that have never spoke in tongues, and produce righteous fruit 100 fold that of many that have spoken in tongues. Seems to prove to me they're Spirit led. Can God's Spirit lead them to producing that much "good fruit", without indwelling in , and without them ever speaking in tongues as the evidence of His indwelling? I think so, and I also think folks like James Dobson, for 1, has God's Spirit leading him from the inside, whether he's spoken in tongues to convince me, or not.
As far as "gifts of healing", I have not PERSONALLY seen any H.G. filled person evidence with tongues, or any other, that retains that gift, tho I feel there is some out there that may have it, whether they have spoken in tongues or not. Jesus said you'll know them by their fruits. I wonder if we're a lttle amiss looking for tongues as the 1 and only sign, when evident fruits say that person is being led by God's Spirit.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Did you speak in tongues at this time?

I'd like to give a bit of history about myself. I was raised in a non christian home. I had little to no church background growing up other than a few Easter Sundays, one summer camp and a few services with friends in high school. It was just a blip here and there.

But at age 22 I was invited and went to a UPC Church with a friend and coworker. Up to this point my life had spiraled into complete chaos and I was ready for a change. The message that night (I believe) was directed to me personally. I don't mean to sound egotistical or anything I just know the hell I had in my own life and how desparate I was for help/healing.

Anyway, I prayed (and wept and so on) until I was completely emptied out. I committed my life to Jesus that night and was FOREVER CHANGED. He came in my heart and I was made ALIVE. What was dead was reborn. I was "born again" that night. I cannot describe (in words) the change that took place within my heart, my mind, and my soul (and still do it justice). It is just not possible. The next day and over the next few weeks people would comment on the fact that I had changed. That something was different about me. A lady whom I worked with me later told me that she could almost literally see a glow around me. (probably b/c I was so filthy in sin that the cleaning up itself made me glow... HA HA)

However, I did NOT speak in tongues until almost a month later and have many times since then almost 15 yrs ago. And quite honestly this PALED IN COMPARISON to my experience at the alter the first night. No experience since that first night has ever compared.

Based on my experience I would say it is not only possible but that it does happen. I think we as an organization place way too much emphasis on tongues and not nearly enough on developing the Fruit of the Spirit and walking in the Spirit.

Any how... just a bit about me. :blah

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

It's not all just about a feeling that we have at any given point in time - whether when not speaking in tongues, or when speaking in tongues.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Exactly !


People have life changes like this all the time without ever stepping into a church.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Woah! Very thought provoking question!!

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

On March 28, 1955 at the age of 17, I asked Jesus to come into my heart. I did not feel anything earthshaking at that moment but my life changed. My language cleaned up. I quit smoking and drinking alcohol. I started going to church and later joined a Baptist Church. I started carrying my Bible to school to read during study hall. I was a new creature according to 2 Corinthians 5:17.

I saw by reading my Bible and by listening to some preaching on the radio (Revivaltime with C.M. Ward plus some preachers like A.A. Allen, Jack Coe, Glenn Thompson) that there was more available for me as a Christian.

October 27, 1955 I was re-baptized. I had been baptized in a nearby lake by my Baptist pastor that summer.

May 20, 1955 I received the Holy Ghost Baptism.

I've been serving the Lord (some times not very well) for over 50 years. Many of those years I had to "deny" the experience with God that I had received because it wasn't "proper" water baptism and because I hadn't spoken with tongues. In other words, I was not REALLY saved until I spoke with tongues more than a year after my life was radically changed. I no longer deny the life changing experience I received when I simply asked Jesus to come in. I believe He did come in as the Holy Spirit when I asked. Over a year later I received a subsequent experience when I spoke with tongues. That was a filling, a baptism in the Spirit, but it was not salvation. I was no more saved afterward than I was before.

Now, this is my opinion and may not agree with your opinion.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

I think we should just go by what the Word says, and not by our own feelings or impressions.

There are some mild, sweet-spirited Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses ouit there too. From their demeanor and daily lifestyle, many would think they produce "righteous fruit" too. But these people are not Spirit-led. These people's "fruit" doesnt "prove" anything.

There are also some mild-mannered so-called "believers" in certain churches/denominations, who are very anti-Holy Ghost, and discourage their loved ones from going to a Pentecostal churches, because they feel speaking in tongues is demonic, fake, etc. These people are not Spirit led and certainly not Spirit filled, no matter how sweet and gentle they may seem to be.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

The disciples of Jesus were authorized to preach, teach, and work miracles. Their names were written in Heaven. (Luke 10:1-20). Later, after His resurrection, Jesus commissioned them to go into all the world and preach to every creature, but, told them to wait in Jerusalem for an experience that would give them power to be witnesses for Him. Ten days after His ascension, Jesus poured out an empowering experience that we call "the Holy Ghost Baptism" or "the Pentecostal Experience" or "the release of the Spirit" or "the filling of the Spirit." This was for empowerment. It was not for salvation. They had already been saved and working for God.

again, this is my opinion and may not agree with your opinion.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

TR France if they think tongues are demonic they have to be reading it from somewere in the bible why else would they think like this. I know what you are saying because I have heard the exact samething..

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

But where would they be reading it in the bible? There's nothing in the bible about demons speaking in tongues.

It's plain ignorance and hardness of heart, just as the Pharisees claimed Jesus was casting out devils by Beelzebub, the prince of devils. They refused to believe and accept Jesus's word and his works, so they tried to talk down his works by claiming they were not of God. It's the same kind of thing with these folks who talk about Pentecostals who speak in tongues as being demon possessed. These people who say that are terribly deceived, and are often looking to find a way to explain away the phenomenon, especially since they havent had the experience themselves.

They remind me of the kind of people Jesus speaks of in the parable of the sower, when he says:

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luke 8:12)

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

the one verse I have heard used by a good s. baptist buddy of mine is;

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’(iniquity-kjv)

He claimed they would be working iniquity by casting out devils and prophesying in his name according to this verse. Yeah, I know, the signs follow the believers..., I told him that.

TR, your points concerning Jehova witnesses, mormons etc... are good noteworthy points IMO. If someone believes Jesus was just an angel or prophet.... they're no doubt, up the creek without a paddle no matter how much good fruit they produce. And they sure can't have His Spirit in them if the believe Him to just be a prophet or angel...

It does however lead me to a question;
Is it possible to cast out demons in his name without knowing him? They tried it in the bible and they got stripped naked, and sent on down the road.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Shag, I feel sorry for your good Baptist buddy.
Here's the thing: ask him for a scripture that says that tongues and other manifestations of the Spirit would not continue to future generations beyond the early church.

He cant find any such scripture, because it doesnt exist.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Agreed. he as many, overlook Crinthians extended expl. of gifts in the operation of the church....for the church....on and on..


What do you think about my previous inserted last question, as to if its possible to cast out demons.....

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

Actually trfrance in 1 corithians 8:13 it does mention something to the effect but the kicker is the perfect is it the bible or jesus because the bible is the perfect word which they did not have back then for people to read..

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

I personally, dont feel he would institute so much scripture on "tongue and sign" operation in the church in atleast 1 full chapter, if it did not exist after the letters came together shortly thereafter. Why even put it in there? Makes no sense to me that way of "thinking'.

Re: Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongue
 

You put down on the work of Christ? This person gives their testimony and for you to put down is just wrong. NO ONE can be born again without Christ.