Apostolic Friends Forum

Apostolic Friends Forum (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/index.php)
-   Fellowship Hall (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   Bible Question (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=21713)

Michael The Disciple 01-11-2009 12:15 AM
Bible Question
 
In Malachi chapter 3 we find this prophecy.




1: Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal. 3:1

Yet when it is referenced in the New Testament we find:

2: As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Mark 1:2 in apparent reference to Mal. 3:1

10: For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Matt. 11:10

These references from the gospels do not seem to match the scripture from Malachi as given through the Massoretic Text.

Here is the Malachi verse from the Septuagint version:

1 “Behold, I send forth My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come into His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, whom you take pleasure in: behold, He is coming,” says the Lord Almighty.

While this agrees with the Massoretic Text it still does not seem to match the quotation of it in the Gospels.

The question is therefore what Version of the Tanakh did the early Church use since what they referenced does not agree with what we are reading?

brotherjason 01-11-2009 07:01 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
I'm sorry I don't have time to look it up at the moment (we live in the sticks and it's a long way to church), but I believe the quote in the gospels there are quoting Isaiah. I could be wrong but it seems to me I have read it there, I'll look when I get home. I'm not afraid to be wrong, just trying to help.
Jason

Michael The Disciple 01-11-2009 08:07 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brotherjason (Post 679300)
I'm sorry I don't have time to look it up at the moment (we live in the sticks and it's a long way to church), but I believe the quote in the gospels there are quoting Isaiah. I could be wrong but it seems to me I have read it there, I'll look when I get home. I'm not afraid to be wrong, just trying to help.
Jason
Thanks Jason.

TK Burk 01-11-2009 08:21 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brotherjason (Post 679300)
I'm sorry I don't have time to look it up at the moment (we live in the sticks and it's a long way to church), but I believe the quote in the gospels there are quoting Isaiah. I could be wrong but it seems to me I have read it there, I'll look when I get home. I'm not afraid to be wrong, just trying to help.
Jason
(Isa 40:3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1:2-3
(2) As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
(3) The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mat 3:1-3
(1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
(2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
(3) For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

OneAccord 01-11-2009 08:27 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Malachi 3
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

This seems to be speaking of 2 separate messengers.

1. Messenger (John the Baptist)
2. The Messenger of the Covenant (The Lord Jesus).

When this verse is alluded to in the Gospels, it is referencing the first part of Malachi 3:1, which deals with the one who prepares the way for the Messenger of the Covenant.

John came in the spirit of Elijah as a messenger to prepare Israel (and the world) for the coming of the Christ, the Messenger of the Covenant.

Kind of simple answer, I know...but I don't know anything about Massoretic Text, Septuagint versions and the Tanakh.

Mal. 3:1 (a) references John the Baptist: 1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

Mal. 3:1 (b) references, Jesus, the Messenger of the Covenant. and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Bro-Larry 01-11-2009 08:34 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Jesus, most often quoted from the Septuigent Version.

brotherjason 01-11-2009 10:06 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk (Post 679323)
(Isa 40:3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1:2-3
(2) As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
(3) The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mat 3:1-3
(1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
(2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
(3) For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Thank you Mr. Burk!! Saved me from digging!!

pelathais 01-11-2009 10:17 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 679287)
In Malachi chapter 3 we find this prophecy.




1: Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal. 3:1

Yet when it is referenced in the New Testament we find:

2: As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Mark 1:2 in apparent reference to Mal. 3:1

10: For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Matt. 11:10

These references from the gospels do not seem to match the scripture from Malachi as given through the Massoretic Text.

Here is the Malachi verse from the Septuagint version:

1 “Behold, I send forth My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come into His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, whom you take pleasure in: behold, He is coming,” says the Lord Almighty.

While this agrees with the Massoretic Text it still does not seem to match the quotation of it in the Gospels.

The question is therefore what Version of the Tanakh did the early Church use since what they referenced does not agree with what we are reading?
Most, though certainly not all of the Old Testament quotes found in the New Testament come from the Septuagint. One thing that stands out if you compare all the NT quotes of the OT is that the NT writers were obviously not always interested in doing a "cut and paste" type of quote but would sometimes make references to what was said or sum it up and quote the gist of the OT passage.

It was the copious use of the Septuagint by the NT writers that led St. Jerome and later catholic scholars to favor the LXX over the Hebrew Tanakh even though Jerome himself was an excellent Hebrew scholar. This of course led to the use of the Septuagint in the Vulgate and all Roman Catholic translations - in fact almost all versions of the Bible until the Reformation.

Praxeas 01-12-2009 01:48 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 679287)
In Malachi chapter 3 we find this prophecy.




1: Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal. 3:1

Yet when it is referenced in the New Testament we find:

2: As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Mark 1:2 in apparent reference to Mal. 3:1

10: For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Matt. 11:10

These references from the gospels do not seem to match the scripture from Malachi as given through the Massoretic Text.

Here is the Malachi verse from the Septuagint version:

1 “Behold, I send forth My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come into His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, whom you take pleasure in: behold, He is coming,” says the Lord Almighty.

While this agrees with the Massoretic Text it still does not seem to match the quotation of it in the Gospels.

The question is therefore what Version of the Tanakh did the early Church use since what they referenced does not agree with what we are reading?
It was because either they quoted the LXX or the Gospel author was making a point by making Christ the "me"...which would point to His Deity...imo

Praxeas 01-12-2009 01:51 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro-Larry (Post 679330)
Jesus, most often quoted from the Septuigent Version.
I doubt that. If he did I think one of the strict. conservative, non- greek speaking Pharisees or sad you sees would have said something. Jesus probably did not speak english nor did he speak much greek. He spoke Aramaic. He was in Israel not the Diaspora. When he read from the scroll in the temple or synagogue it was in aramaic/hebrew.

It was the authors that wrote the gospels in greek and who probably quoted the LXX

Digging4Truth 01-12-2009 08:19 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 679806)
It was because either they quoted the LXX or the Gospel author was making a point by making Christ the "me"...which would point to His Deity...imo
From what we have seen in this thread it seems that it was because they were quoting from Isaiah and not from Malachi.

Digging4Truth 01-12-2009 08:20 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
This is a very interesting thread and it touches on a subject that I have thought about several times...

It would appear from what we have seen so far that the quotes in the NT align more closely to Isaiah and do not align exactly to the writings of Malachi?

Is this every ones understanding thus far?

That seems very clear that the terminology in Isaiah lines up very nicely to the quotes in the NT and the writings in Malachi do not provide a close enough version to safely say they were quoting Malachi.

Digging4Truth 01-12-2009 09:13 AM
Re: Bible Question
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 679872)
This is a very interesting thread and it touches on a subject that I have thought about several times...

It would appear from what we have seen so far that the quotes in the NT align more closely to Isaiah and do not align exactly to the writings of Malachi?

Is this every ones understanding thus far?

That seems very clear that the terminology in Isaiah lines up very nicely to the quotes in the NT and the writings in Malachi do not provide a close enough version to safely say they were quoting Malachi.
I wrote the post above to get an agreement that we are at least at the understanding above and then I was going to comment further...

There are only a few of us discussing this so that might be quite a wait and might waste a pretty good bit of time...

So... taking that into consideration I will go ahead and put forth my thought for discussion.

I am excited to have seen this discussion because I, too, had been under the assumption that these verses being discussed in the NT were quoted from Malachi. It now seems clear that the quote structure leans heavily toward Isaiah and leans equally as heavily away from Malachi.

With that thought in mind I would like to share with you a feeling I have had about Malachi 3 for quite some time.

For a number of years now I have felt strongly that the person being spoken of in Malachi was Nehemiah.

The robbing God etc from Malachi 3 is speaking of the priests at the time of Nehemiah and he did indeed come to the temple and set things straight.

i have felt for some time that this was foretelling that God would send a man to set things straight at the temple and bring people back into proper obedience to his law.

your thoughts?


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.