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ILG 01-15-2009 09:36 AM
Being an Iconoclast
 
Do you think it is good or okay to be an iconoclast?

Quote:
i⋅con⋅o⋅clast   /aɪˈkɒnəˌklæst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-kon-uh-klast] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a breaker or destroyer of images, esp. those set up for religious veneration.
2. a person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditional institutions, etc., as being based on error or superstition.


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Origin:
1590–1600; < ML īconoclastēs < MGk eikonoklástēs, equiv. to Gk eikono- icono- + -klastēs breaker, equiv. to klas- (var. s. of klân to break) + -tēs agent n. suffix
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Cite This Source
i·con·o·clast (ī-kŏn'ə-klāst') Pronunciation Key
n.
One who attacks and seeks to overthrow traditional or popular ideas or institutions.
One who destroys sacred religious images.

[French iconoclaste, from Medieval Greek eikonoklastēs, smasher of religious images : eikono-, icono- + Greek -klastēs, breaker (from Greek klān, klas-, to break).]
i·con'o·clas'tic adj., i·con'o·clas'ti·cal·ly adv.

Word History: An iconoclast can be unpleasant company, but at least the modern iconoclast only attacks such things as ideas and institutions. The original iconoclasts destroyed countless works of art. Eikonoklastēs, the ancestor of our word, was first formed in Medieval Greek from the elements eikōn, "image, likeness," and -klastēs, "breaker," from klān, "to break." The images referred to by the word are religious images, which were the subject of controversy among Christians of the Byzantine Empire in the 8th and 9th centuries, when iconoclasm was at its height. In addition to destroying many sculptures and paintings, those opposed to images attempted to have them barred from display and veneration. During the Protestant Reformation images in churches were again felt to be idolatrous and were once more banned and destroyed. It is around this time that iconoclast, the descendant of the Greek word, is first recorded in English (1641), with reference to the Byzantine iconoclasts. In the 19th century iconoclast took on the secular sense that it has today, as in "Kant was the great iconoclast" (James Martineau).


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

iconoclast

"breaker or destroyer of images," 1596, from Fr. iconoclaste, from M.L. iconoclastes, from Late Gk. eikonoklastes, from eikon (gen. eikonos) "image" + klastes "breaker," from klas- pt. stem of klan "to break." Originally those in the Eastern Church in 8c. and 9c. whose mobs of followers destroyed icons and other religious objects on the grounds that they were idols. Applied to 16c.-17c. Protestants in Netherlands who vandalized former Catholic churches on similar grounds. Extended sense of "one who attacks orthodox beliefs or institutions" is first attested 1842. Iconoclasm in this sense is from 1858.


Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source
iconoclast

noun
1. a destroyer of images used in religious worship
2. someone who attacks cherished ideas or traditional institutions


WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Cite This Source
Iconoclast

Ferd 01-15-2009 09:41 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
LOL!

Was Jim Yohe an Iconoclast?

edjen01 01-15-2009 09:44 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
sacred cows make the best cheeseburgers.

MissBrattified 01-15-2009 10:01 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
If I had read the first post, I would've saved myself the trouble of going to dictionary.com to look it up! :D

The new generation should be questioning everything, but removing nothing unless it truly needs to be removed. I'm sure there were OT kids who said, "Mom, WHY do we have to burn incense? That's stupid!" And then if they were referred back to the law, they probably said, "Oh yeah...because God said so." And they kept burning incense.

The point being...make sure if you question something, you find the answer before you ACT.

ILG 01-15-2009 10:34 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 683040)
If I had read the first post, I would've saved myself the trouble of going to dictionary.com to look it up! :D

The new generation should be questioning everything, but removing nothing unless it truly needs to be removed. I'm sure there were OT kids who said, "Mom, WHY do we have to burn incense? That's stupid!" And then if they were referred back to the law, they probably said, "Oh yeah...because God said so." And they kept burning incense.

The point being...make sure if you question something, you find the answer before you ACT.[/
I think this is a very good point. My personal opinion is that sometimes, radical, iconoclast actions needs to be taken, but that is the exception and not the rule. If it becomes the rule in someone's life, I think it becomes more of a personal problem than a true iconoclast work.

Withdrawn 01-15-2009 10:35 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 683040)
If I had read the first post, I would've saved myself the trouble of going to dictionary.com to look it up! :D

The new generation should be questioning everything, but removing nothing unless it truly needs to be removed. I'm sure there were OT kids who said, "Mom, WHY do we have to burn incense? That's stupid!" And then if they were referred back to the law, they probably said, "Oh yeah...because God said so." And they kept burning incense.

The point being...make sure if you question something, you find the answer before you ACT.
Funny! This was the "Word of the Day" from Dictionary.com in my Inbox on Tuesday so it looks like I had one up on you. :lol

I agree with you. The definition says an iconoclast is a "breaker or destroyer" and someone who "attacks". This should be a grim reminder to everyone that before we tear something down, we should build something up that can serve as a stable, suitable alternative.

ILG 01-15-2009 10:37 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaamez (Post 683069)
Funny! This was the "Word of the Day" from Dictionary.com in my Inbox on Tuesday so it looks like I had one up on you. :lol

I agree with you. The definition says an iconoclast is a "breaker or destroyer" and someone who "attacks". This should be a grim reminder to everyone that before we tear something down, we should build something up that can serve as a stable, suitable alternative.
Interesting! And no, I don't get the word of the day. I used to post back in the nineties with someone who had the username of Iconoclast. I thought it was kind of cool, but I don't know that it's something I would want to be known as!

iceniez 01-15-2009 11:08 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
OF course if we did we probably would end up in jail.

ManOfWord 01-15-2009 11:15 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
I think questioning is good. However, not questioning to tear down, but questioning to establish a foundation upon which to build.

I have people forward things to me all the time about "you name it!" Some of these are pretty radical things. I don't forward things and I don't get on the bandwagon for the next coming crisis. I DO want to believe in something. I'm skeptical because I don't want to be a sucker. But when I've done my "homework" I'm a pitbull for or against something I'm convinced about. At least until I can be proven wrong....again! And it DOES happen!!! :D

StillStanding 01-15-2009 11:17 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edjen01 (Post 683025)
sacred cows make the best cheeseburgers.
Now THAT is funny! :lol

Timmy 01-15-2009 11:19 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
I voted "I don't know". Betcha never saw that coming!

I guess I fit def 2 to a large extent, though I don't care for the word "attack". I like "challenge" better. As to the question, I don't think it can be answered definitively for everyone, and the wording is "Should we...". It's not a job for the faint of heart. :winkgrin

But "yes" could have worked, too. I think everyone should challenge things. Everything. Why cling so tenaciously? If you are right about something -- anything -- it will hold up to scrutiny.

*AQuietPlace* 01-15-2009 11:20 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
noun
2. someone who attacks cherished ideas or traditional institutions


Didn't Jesus do this? Maybe not attack, but challenge?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaamez (Post 683069)

I agree with you. The definition says an iconoclast is a "breaker or destroyer" and someone who "attacks". This should be a grim reminder to everyone that before we tear something down, we should build something up that can serve as a stable, suitable alternative.
That is a very good point.

ILG 01-15-2009 12:18 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 683100)
[B]


Didn't Jesus do this? Maybe not attack, but challenge?




That is a very good point.

Yes, I think so. And some of the OT prophets did this.

Ferd 01-15-2009 12:40 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 683097)
I think questioning is good. However, not questioning to tear down, but questioning to establish a foundation upon which to build.

I have people forward things to me all the time about "you name it!" Some of these are pretty radical things. I don't forward things and I don't get on the bandwagon for the next coming crisis. I DO want to believe in something. I'm skeptical because I don't want to be a sucker. But when I've done my "homework" I'm a pitbull for or against something I'm convinced about. At least until I can be proven wrong....again! And it DOES happen!!! :D
in the context of AFF and the Apostolic movement MOW, it is my humble opinion that you are happy to have done a good deal of both questioning and tearing down....

And based on at least one very very very long thread here on AFF, it seems to me that you fancy yourself as some sort of iconoclast where certain Oneness Pentecostal doctrines are concerned....

not a shot, just my own personal observation...

ManOfWord 01-15-2009 01:51 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 683193)
in the context of AFF and the Apostolic movement MOW, it is my humble opinion that you are happy to have done a good deal of both questioning and tearing down....

And based on at least one very very very long thread here on AFF, it seems to me that you fancy yourself as some sort of iconoclast where certain Oneness Pentecostal doctrines are concerned....

not a shot, just my own personal observation...
You have a right to your observation......So, what, in your opinion, constitutes a "good deal" of questioning and tearing down?

No shot taken, just a personal question spurred from a personal observation. :D

Ferd 01-15-2009 04:11 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 683245)
You have a right to your observation......So, what, in your opinion, constitutes a "good deal" of questioning and tearing down?

No shot taken, just a personal question spurred from a personal observation. :D
my brother, my second paragraph serves as context. you have at least one extremely long threAd here on AFF that I would point to. no need to go beyond that.

ManOfWord 01-15-2009 07:18 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 683374)
my brother, my second paragraph serves as context. you have at least one extremely long threAd here on AFF that I would point to. no need to go beyond that.
OK, so 1 thread, 1 subject constitutes a "good deal" of questioning and tearing down. Hmmmmmmmm.......as I said, you have a right to your opinion. That is the great thing about an open forum.

From your perspective and knowing where you stand, I can see how you might think so. :D

Ferd 01-15-2009 08:11 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 683461)
OK, so 1 thread, 1 subject constitutes a "good deal" of questioning and tearing down. Hmmmmmmmm.......as I said, you have a right to your opinion. That is the great thing about an open forum.

From your perspective and knowing where you stand, I can see how you might think so. :D
1 thread with quite a lot in it that explains quite a lot about you. You are comfortable in your own skin (and thats a good thing), I am not making a judgment here just an observation.

the one thread serves as a clear indicator but we both know there is more and there is no need to delve deeper.

There are a LOT of Apostolic Iconoclasts mucking about the internet these days. Most want to rebuild their own version from the rubble.

In some ways I fit that mold too. Im just not trying to distroy the structure and the foundations.... more like moving some furniture around and switching out some of the pictures on the walls....

others seem to have wrecking ball and a jack hammer. Its that wreckingball and jackhammer that cause the most alarm for those of us that are.... coming from my perspective? Standing where I stand?

ManOfWord 01-15-2009 09:46 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 683491)
1 thread with quite a lot in it that explains quite a lot about you. You are comfortable in your own skin (and thats a good thing), I am not making a judgment here just an observation.

the one thread serves as a clear indicator but we both know there is more and there is no need to delve deeper.

There are a LOT of Apostolic Iconoclasts mucking about the internet these days. Most want to rebuild their own version from the rubble.

In some ways I fit that mold too. Im just not trying to distroy the structure and the foundations.... more like moving some furniture around and switching out some of the pictures on the walls....

others seem to have wrecking ball and a jack hammer. Its that wreckingball and jackhammer that cause the most alarm for those of us that are.... coming from my perspective? Standing where I stand?
And I would only respond that the "wrecking ball" swings both ways and usually only recognized as swinging ONE way. At least that's my observation. :D

StillStanding 01-16-2009 09:32 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 683540)
And I would only respond that the "wrecking ball" swings both ways and usually only recognized as swinging ONE way. At least that's my observation. :D
Correct! There are iconoclasts representing each segment of the Apostolic faith!

Ferd 01-16-2009 11:14 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 683540)
And I would only respond that the "wrecking ball" swings both ways and usually only recognized as swinging ONE way. At least that's my observation. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway (Post 683778)
Correct! There are iconoclasts representing each segment of the Apostolic faith!
hmmm.... I think i disagree. There might be a strong contengent of traditionalists (in one form or another) who oppose what the neo-apostolics are doing, but I wouldnt call them iconoclasts. They dont oppose the standard. They oppose those of you who are working so diligently at taking thier system apart... of course the taking apart is being done with the intention of building your own system afterwards....

but that doesnt mean those who oppose you are equal to you. THIS wrecking ball swings one way MOW. It is opposed for sure, but it only swings one way.

Pressing-On 01-16-2009 11:26 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 683193)
in the context of AFF and the Apostolic movement MOW, it is my humble opinion that you are happy to have done a good deal of both questioning and tearing down....

And based on at least one very very very long thread here on AFF, it seems to me that you fancy yourself as some sort of iconoclast where certain Oneness Pentecostal doctrines are concerned....

not a shot, just my own personal observation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 683491)
1 thread with quite a lot in it that explains quite a lot about you. You are comfortable in your own skin (and thats a good thing), I am not making a judgment here just an observation.

the one thread serves as a clear indicator but we both know there is more and there is no need to delve deeper.

There are a LOT of Apostolic Iconoclasts mucking about the internet these days. Most want to rebuild their own version from the rubble.

In some ways I fit that mold too. Im just not trying to distroy the structure and the foundations.... more like moving some furniture around and switching out some of the pictures on the walls....

others seem to have wrecking ball and a jack hammer. Its that wreckingball and jackhammer that cause the most alarm for those of us that are.... coming from my perspective? Standing where I stand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 683942)
hmmm.... I think i disagree. There might be a strong contengent of traditionalists (in one form or another) who oppose what the neo-apostolics are doing, but I wouldnt call them iconoclasts. They dont oppose the standard. They oppose those of you who are working so diligently at taking thier system apart... of course the taking apart is being done with the intention of building your own system afterwards....

but that doesnt mean those who oppose you are equal to you. THIS wrecking ball swings one way MOW. It is opposed for sure, but it only swings one way.
Ferd you are awesome!!! Thank you!!!

StillStanding 01-16-2009 11:59 AM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 683949)
Ferd you are awesome!!! Thank you!!!
Ferd, you are indeed awesome, but wrong! (IMO)

I believe the true later day Apostolic church was hi-jacked by the conservative segment. As this church re-emerges, traditionalists are trying their best to destroy it before it gains momentum. Of course, this is my opinion! :)

RevDWW 01-16-2009 12:15 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Destroyer of idols??? Hmmm........might not hurt to have a church full of Iconclasts.........

ILG 01-16-2009 01:47 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway (Post 683975)
Ferd, you are indeed awesome, but wrong! (IMO)

I believe the true later day Apostolic church was hi-jacked by the conservative segment. As this church re-emerges, traditionalists are trying their best to destroy it before it gains momentum. Of course, this is my opinion! :)
I agree.

Keep in mind that the original Pentecostal movement was made up of iconoclasts dismantling the Catholic/Protestant systems.

Pressing-On 01-16-2009 03:37 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway (Post 683975)
Ferd, you are indeed awesome, but wrong! (IMO)

I believe the true later day Apostolic church was hi-jacked by the conservative segment. As this church re-emerges, traditionalists are trying their best to destroy it before it gains momentum. Of course, this is my opinion! :)
And you are awesome for having an opinion, too! :D But Ferd made some excellent points and is always awesome when he does. Just my opinion! :D

Ron 01-16-2009 03:40 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 683949)
Ferd you are awesome!!! Thank you!!!
I agree PO, Ferd does bring points from another viewpoint.
Alas, I wonder what good it does.:angelsad

Pressing-On 01-16-2009 03:42 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Post 684087)
I agree PO, Ferd does bring points from another viewpoint.
Alas, I wonder what good it does.:angelsad
Basically, people express their opinions to let it be known how they feel about things/issues. It only does good to those that agree! Isn't that the way it always and only works?

Ron 01-16-2009 03:44 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 684090)
Basically, people express their opinions to let it be known how they feel about things/issues. It only does good to those that agree! Isn't that the way it always and only works?
I guess you are right!

Pressing-On 01-16-2009 03:46 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Post 684092)
I guess you are right!
I don't mind reading any opposing thoughts or opinions. When they are forced down my throat and it feels like I'm being forced to change my views, then I don't like it. Vice versa for all - it goes both ways.

OneAccord 01-16-2009 03:48 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
[QUOTE=jaamez;683069]

I agree with you. The definition says an iconoclast is a "breaker or destroyer" and someone who "attacks". This should be a grim reminder to everyone that before we tear something down, we should build something up that can serve as a stable, suitable alternative.[/QUOTE]

This is so true. Elijah and Elishas were both prophets, but, there ministries were quite different. While some are called to be destroyers, others are called to be builders. Though I sometimes fail miserably, I try to be the latter.

Ron 01-16-2009 03:49 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 684095)
I don't mind reading any opposing thoughts or opinions. When they are forced down my throat and it feels like I'm being forced to change my views, then I don't like it. Vice versa for all - it goes both ways.
I agree!

Pressing-On 01-16-2009 03:51 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneAccord (Post 684096)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaamez (Post 683069)

I agree with you. The definition says an iconoclast is a "breaker or destroyer" and someone who "attacks". This should be a grim reminder to everyone that before we tear something down, we should build something up that can serve as a stable, suitable alternative.
This is so true. Elijah and Elishas were both prophets, but, there ministries were quite different. While some are called to be destroyers, others are called to be builders. Though I sometimes fail miserably, I try to be the latter.
Amen, OA!! Good post!!!! :thumbsup

ManOfWord 01-16-2009 08:43 PM
Re: Being an Iconoclast
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 683942)
hmmm.... I think i disagree. There might be a strong contengent of traditionalists (in one form or another) who oppose what the neo-apostolics are doing, but I wouldnt call them iconoclasts. They dont oppose the standard. They oppose those of you who are working so diligently at taking thier system apart... of course the taking apart is being done with the intention of building your own system afterwards....

but that doesnt mean those who oppose you are equal to you. THIS wrecking ball swings one way MOW. It is opposed for sure, but it only swings one way.
Working so diligently at taking their system apart? You've got to be kidding! Whose system?

Equal? You're right about that because it is usually ONE side which accuses the other of being hell-bound. Now, talking about "tearing down" how can a person be torn down worse than their salvation not only being questioned, but canceled out?

It would really be great if their could be enough mutual respect that someone's salvation wasn't called into question. That my friend is the hard fact. The wrecking ball DOES, in fact, swing both ways and the tearing down as well.

Who determines what THE standard is and who has the wrecking ball? The predominant thinking pre-Affirmation Statement? The predominant thinking at the merger? The predominant thinking 15yrs after the merger?

That's my point. It DOES swing both ways. It just depends upon which direction you're looking at it from. That is why mutual respect is paramount. :D


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