Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

www.cresourcei.org/hmovement.html - 49k

Written by Keith Drury

"We need to admit to each other that the holiness movement is dead. We have never had a funeral. And we still have the body upstairs in bed. In fact, we still keep it dressed up and still even talk about the movement as if it were alive. But the holiness movement—as a movement—is dead. Yes, I recognize that there are many wonderful holiness people around. And people are still getting entirely sanctified here and there. But as a movement, I think we need to admit we are dead. The sooner we admit it, the better off we’ll be.

We have a holiness heritage. We have holiness denominations. We have holiness organizations. We have holiness doctrines. We even have holiness colleges, but we no longer have a holiness movement. I, for one, lament the death of the holiness movement. But pretending we are alive as a movement will not make it so. In fact, it may be the greatest barrier to the emergence of a new holiness movement."

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Do you believe the holiness movement is dead?

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

What is the "holiness movement"? What defines it?

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

From Wikipidia

The doctrine of the Conservative Holiness Movement varies slightly from group to group; however, the common thread between them is the belief that the carnal nature (or sin nature, depravity) can be cleansed (eradicated) through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit by one who has received salvation from God through the confession of sin, repentance and faith (See also holiness movement). This belief is also called, "entire sanctification" or a "second work of grace" that enables one to live a life set apart from the world.

The fundamental differences between its denominations and the mainstream (liberal) holiness movement in general are what define it as the Conservative Holiness Movement. These fundamental differences include but are not limited to standards of dress, fashion, and entertainment. In many cases the liberal churches are no longer a reflection of what they once were. Many even question their basic doctrines and beliefs that were once held as fundamental. The Conservative movement strives to remain true to Biblical doctrines and standards.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Yeah, sounds like he's talking about Wesleyan type holiness.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

exactly?

how many people does it take to start a "movement"? 1..2..100...1 million..???

What was the holiness movement made up of?

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Are Oneness Pentecostals still "holiness" people?

Is the concept of holiness unimportant to us?

Is ole time holiness preaching DOA?

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Wikipidia....really?? thats a reliable source??

not sure I want to get my facts about a subject from public opinion.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

no, it is not dead...I still believe in clean living! ha...
Love you folks.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I think this minister means something entirely different by the word 'holiness' than most Apostolics do. Particularly conservative Apostolics.

No, it's most definitely not dead... in many areas it's going very strong. Way too strong in some places. :D

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I don't think the Holiness Movement is dead, cause it is in action. But there is a difference in the Holiness Movement and people that follow a "holiness dress code." The leaders of The Ramp out of Alabama are certainly a holiness movement, but most of the OTP's would call them liberal, sinners, or whatever. Holiness is a condition of what is in the heart not so much the condition of what is on the hinnie. I know people in this movement that look holiness on the outside, but the conditon of the heart is certainly not a holiness lifestyle.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

what does DOA stand for?

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I think the holiness movement as described is dead. However, there will always be folks trying to add to the word of God.

We see a lot of the same confusion of the holiness movement in the charismatic and pentecostal movements. Folks are always trying to find a newer and easier way to live for God. We will constantly see these fads and trends happen as long as people don't have a strong understanding and hunger for the word of God.

There is a book by Dr. Harry Ironside, Holiness: The False and the True that describes his conversion from the holiness movement and the confusion that he suffered because of the teachings of the movement.

Here is a link to some of his writings.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/D...e/holiness.htm

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

not sure Oneness has anything to do with holiness. I know lots of different groups who profess a level of holiness.

When you say "us"....who are you refering to?

IMHO...I hope that most ole time style of preaching is dead or dying. I don't need to be spat on to feel God...i don't need to be screamed at to hear the truth...i don't care if a preacher can walk on the backs of pews...stand on the pulpit/organ...or make the viens in his forehead pop-out. to much style over substance....even if it is bad style.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Dead on arrival?

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

When I think of the holiness movement I think of the groups that predate the Azuza street revivals. There are always revivals happening among people who are thirsting after Christ and want to be more like him.

People need to realize that sanctification is also a work of the Holy Spirit. Trying to do the work ourselves will only end in failure and frustration. With the proper faith and trust in Jesus and his dying on the cross as our source of sanctification we allow him to move and work in our life in ways that we don't realize. If we start trying to help him along then our flesh will start to get in the way and we will find ourselves once more heading down the wrong path.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I don't think the Bible teaches we can "eradicate" the sinful nature but we can try to mortify it through the Spirit. This is the pursuit of inner holiness, the separation from sin and starts with maintaining purity of the heart.

I think we have to maintain an attitude of being a pilgrim in the world. This world is not my home. We can use the things of this world but not hold dearly to these things for our conversation is above. As for "worldly" fashion, dress, and entertainment...we have to go by what is godly in all these things. "What would Jesus do?".

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Conservative holiness in the article you quoted is what the UPC stands for in the AOF.

I think it is dying because it is being redefined.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I have friends who are Bible Methodists, an organization that broke from Wesleyan Methodists in 1968...

They look more like 'us' than 'us', and believe in living separated lives. They lift their hands in worship, and say "Amen" outloud.

My friends are southern gospel singers and musicians, and when I attend their concerts I cannot tell the Pentecostals from Bible Methodists, Wesleyans, and some Nazarenes.

And they consider themselves holiness folk... :snowing

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Thanks for posting that link.

A short preview:

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

What does God intend us to understand by the term holiness? It simply means BELONGING TO, and in this case, belonging to God. And the way we live should reflect that. I believe in modesty, but I think it got way out of whack when standards that are not found in the bible, or are the result of misreading what the Bible does say, started to high-jack what holiness is supposed to mean.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Yep!

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I simply suggest that the holiness movement is not dead! :D

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

If you hang around AFF for awhile you may think it has long since been dead and buried!

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I believe in holiness. I preach holiness. Holiness is two things: Separated FROM & Separated TO.

The debate is over the measure of separation. Most "holiness" organizations are built on the Greek idea of "duality." Flesh and Spirit. The SPIRIT is good and the FLESH is bad. Therefore, everything of the SPIRIT is good and everything of the FLESH is bad.

Jesus never said that. Jesus said that the SPIRIT is willing but the FLESH is weak. Jesus didn't create something that was bad. He made the world and our bodies to enjoy what He made for US!

However, we are to enjoy all He made for us, including the world and the things in it, withing the protective boundaries of His word. When principles of holiness take a backseat to the "specifics" of holiness, legalism reigns. There is a ditch on the other side of the holiness road as well.

When principles of holiness are above specifics of holiness, God loving, intelligent people will, hopefully make decisions based upon God's word.

I will "set no wicked thing before my eyes" has absolutely nothing to do with television. It has everything to do with moral or immoral input from ANY media.

In the OT, the ceremonial "law" had nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with being Jewish. It was NEVER, "How saved is someone?" It was, "How Jewish is someone?" If you were truly Jewish, you did XYZ. It was not that XYZ made you saved or was connected to our salvation.

The scripture doesn't say TV is bad! However, there are things on TV that ARE bad and we should not set them before our eyes/heart. The same with the written word, spoken word and illustrated word...there is no difference. I don't care whether you rent it or pay for a ticket. If it's wicked, it's wicked. If I preach that, I don't have to deal with the TV or Movie Theatre issue. :D

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I'd have to know if holiness means to you what it means to most OP's STANDARDS ??

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I have that book and it also delt with the doctrine of sinless perfection.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Hmmmm. Since "holiness" was never all-encompassing, never consistent in application, and never even church-wide within Pentecostal ranks, I would say that if its dead now, it was dead 15 or 20 years ago. It's sort of a moot point.

Of course, I'm using the term "holiness" within the context of this thread, mostly in regard to outward appearance/standards only.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Oh..that version of holiness. No, it's not dead, but could someone just please put it out of it's misery. :thebunny

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I have several of Dr. Ironside's books.
That was a good article.

When the Holy Spirit Baptism began to be poured out in the late 1800's and early 1900's many of the folks had come from a "holiness" background. They believed that they had been saved and subsequently "sanctified" or "baptized in the Spirit." So, when they received the "tongues" experience they went to a three works of grace stand. Some would testify to being saved, sanctified, and baptized in the Holy Ghost. Later through a teaching called "the finished work of Calvary" many abandoned the idea that sin or the old nature was eradicated in a second blessing and just preached salvation and a subsequent Holy Ghost Baptism (tongues). The Assemblies of God developed from those who denied the "second blessing." The Cleveland Church of God and the Church of God in Christ maintained the three steps or three experiences. Some Oneness churches also believe in a second blessing holiness experience in between repentance and the Holy Ghost Baptism.

Some years ago I was in a Church of God (Cleveland, TN) meeting where they reported on the statistics from a recent Youth Camp. They told how many had been saved, how many had been sanctified, and how many had been baptized in the Spirit.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I think the major problem is how standards are presented and the false security it can bring.

I would say MOST holiness pentecostals don't know they are even saved.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

I think the Holiness movement is alive, it's just struggling to adjust to a new day. We're learning that holiness is an issue of the heart not the external. Dress codes and standards only bring Christian modesty at best and legalism at worse. Nothing about the outward standards makes one "holy". Those are my thoughts. God bless.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

That is precisely a good point.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Don't just throw it out the window because "it's Wikipedia".

Most of the contributors to Wikipedia are very knowledgeable about the topics they post on.

In the case above, their description of the Holiness Movement seems to be pretty accurate. But if you think it's not, feel free to give us your insight.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Wikipedia is a good source. Anything in error on it is quickly cast out of the text. They keep a good handle on it.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

LOL. The editor at that site has this note:

"This article is an edited version of two articles by Keith Drury, "The Holiness Movement Is Dead," and "Hope for the Holiness Movement") -editor, Dennis Bratcher"

So, the Holiness Movement is Dead - yet there is Hope for the Holiness Movement? Both articles simultaneously from the same writer. Keith is a popular writer among Wesleyans. I read a booklet of his about suffering, "Walking With Death" (?) which I though was very good.

"Movements" come and go. Since holiness is an intrinsic element of God's nature, I think holiness itself will be around for a very long time to come.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Just to add my comment to the others about Wikipedia - in order to get your contributions to stand you have to build a consensus among other contributors and prove that your facts are correct. I have made contributions in articles on Military History and had to plead my case. Never lost a battle - but I did have to go back and dig up sources for corroboration to satisfy the many critics.

And every source of information could be labeled as "public opinion," even the Encyclopedia Britannica. And I'm sure that you have found plenty to criticize in the Britannica.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

"Movements" come and go. Since holiness is an intrinsic element of God's nature, I think holiness itself will be around for a very long time to come.[/QUOTE]

Both of you said almost exactely what I was thinking when I read the thread! Instead of looking for a "movement" we should be seeking a move of God! Both of these were awesome responses!

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

Yes the Weslyan style Holiness Movement is dead. But the scriptural command to be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is alive and well. Its a challenge to every would be disciple.

We are at the point where most Christians dont believe you can consistently overcome Sin by the Holy Spirit power in them.

Re: Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
 

As long as someone thinks that they can earn their way into heaven (which is only natural since it is easier for someone to wrap their heads around it as opposed to the concept of Grace), "holiness" as defined by clothesline preaching, will NEVER die.