When "I" became a "Him"
 

Trinitarian argument is based on pronouns proving "person". It is their assertion there are three persons. It is Oneness basically that asserts One God became the Son and could therefore refer to God as a "he" as though God is someone other than the Son.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Notice in this verse the speaker is "I" and says "they shall look upon ME, whom they have pierced"?

Then notice how the pronouns shift to the second person? And they shall mourn for him.

The First personal speaker became a second personal speaker in the same context.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

And all within one sentence...so what do you think? The entire verse seems to be prophetic otherwise how could Zechariah know that "they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

It's like having one subject and going from calling himself someone who is God to someone who is other than God. Prophecy is so hard to decipher!

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

From first person to third, you mean? "...shall mourn for him".

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

YOU are right....YOU being a second person and HE being a third person :thumbsup

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

So what did you think of my exegesis of Isaiah 6?

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

Can you post the link? I didn't have time to look at it this morning.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

http://www.christiandiscussionforums...d.php?t=151945

Especially near the end. First I pointed out the vision there with the son of man is speaking about the saints. The saints according to the context are the son of man in the vision. This is important because it shows how the Trinitarian mind works. They use eisegesis and read all these OT passages that way..

Then I took on Netmannas assertion that Isaiah 6 shows the Trinity.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

One of the greatest books that I have read thusfar has been: The Shack by William P. Young. His display of God was wonderful and so different.

RV

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

It was on the direction and possession of pronouns in the Hebrew language when I dozed off in class... how is this carried over in the original?

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

And I just haven't learned enough yet to look at it and know. I'm curious too, what it says in Hebrew.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

Old mountain man coming down to the river in search of water, fish and gold.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. [JPS 1917]

Or, a more commentary translation is:

9. In that day I will all but annihilate all of the nations that came up against Jerusalem. 10. But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born.11. In that day the wailing in Jerusalem shall be as great as the wailing at Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddon. [JPS 2000]

In this case, note the radical differences between the 1917 and the 2000 editions. There are two possible reasons for the changes, (1) to remove the Messianic focus from the scripture,which is not very likely and/or (2) the later translation is a better translation of the original manuscript, which brings into question the scholarship of both groups of translators.

I will study this more closely during the week and get back to this thread, unless someone else gets to it first.

Shalom Aleichem

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

An additional note:

Rashi was not a friend of Jesus and did not recognize Him to be the promised one, however, his commentary on verse 10 reads as follows:

... a spirit of grace and supplications That it should come into their mind to supplicate Me, and they will be in My good graces.

a spirit Talant in Old French, a desire.

... they shall look to Me because of those who have been thrust through Jonathan renders: And they shall supplicate Me because of their wanderings.

And they shall look to Me to complain about those of them whom the nations thrust through and slew during their exile.
and they shall mourn over it Over that slaughter.

... as one mourns over an only son

As a man mourns over his only son.

And our Sages expounded this in tractate Sukkah (52a) as referring to the Messiah, son of Joseph, who was slain.

----------------

So, as we can see, this is not a trivial matter. We need to consider it further.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

An additional translation reads:

“… and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer’ and they will look to me, whom they pierced.” They will mourn for an only son’ they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a first born son. [CJB 1998]

In addition to the task of translating the Hebrew into understandable English, is the task of a correct interpretation of the original text into an English/American world view – which is where I currently suspect the major differences cited above lie.

Another added note: If someone else wants to jump in here, I hope the cited references give you a head start.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

They, combined with a quick glance at e-sword...noting the italics all over the place, lead me to think it's a translation/smoothing over issue. It doesn't look like much of a fun verse to translate. They probably had to put *something* in there to make it make sense....

Nope, I'm not volunteering to tackle this one. lol

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

This is from the OJB (Orthodox Jewish Bible)

|8| In Yom Hahu shall
Hashem defend the
inhabitants of Yerushalayim;
and he that is feeble among
them in Yom Hahu shall
be like Dovid; and the Bais
Dovid shall be like Elohim,
like the Malach Hashem
before them.
|9| And it shall come to pass
in Yom Hahu, that I will seek
to destroy kol HaGoyim that
attack Yerushalayim.
|10| And I will pour upon the
Bais Dovid, and upon the
inhabitants of Yerushalayim,
the Ruach (Spirit) of Chen
(grace) and of Tachanunim
(supplications for favor); and
they shall look upon Me whom
they have pierced [dakar,
"pierce through" cf. Yeshayah
53:5; Targum HaShivim
Tehillim 22:17], and they shall
mourn for Him (Moshiach) as
one mourneth for his yachid
(only son), and shall grieve in
bitterness for him, as one that
is in bitterness for his bechor
(firstborn).

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

Okay, nahkoe, go for it. LOLOL

I was going to publish the Hebrew, but I can't get an image small enough to post, yet large enough to read, and typing it in one letter at a time (in Hebrew) from the key board is just too hard for a guy to do - and with my typing skills????? However, I think most everyone these days has access to some original language Bibles - at least on-line. e-Sword is a good one, SWORD and Davar are also excellent.

I like that version Jim posted from - I'll have to get me a copy.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

I was thinking the same thing about that version Jim posted from.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

Which seems to agree with the KJV et al, regarding pronoun person. So, what does this tell us regarding Trinity or Oneness? Well, as a somewhat impartial (don't laugh) bystander, I say "not much". It could merely be a rhetorical device, simply changing the point of view mid-sentence. (There's probably a name for that, but it escapes me.) Nothing meant to be read into it, either way. (As if there was even a question of Oneness vs Trinity, back when it was written! LOL!)

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

I have the OJB as a pdf file.
If anyone wants me to I can email it to you as an attachment.
It's too large to attach to a post on here.
It's 1,248 pages, 65.4 MB, I don't know if my email can send it or your email can receive it.
My email address is Jim@InJesusName.us

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

You can go to
http://www.afii.org/ojbible.html
and download it

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

Thank you!

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

I did, and I got my free copy.

Thanks Jim

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

LXX
Zec 12:10καὶ ἐκχεῶ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Δαυιδ καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας Ιερουσαλημ πνεῦμα χάριτος καὶ οἰκτιρμοῦ, καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται πρός με ἀνθ᾿ ὧν κατωρχήσαντο καὶ κόψονται ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν κοπετὸν ὡς ἐπ᾿ ἀγαπητὸν καὶ ὀδυνηθήσονται ὀδύνην ὡς ἐπὶ πρωτοτόκῳ.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

NET bible commentary
15 tc Because of the difficulty of the concept of the mortal piercing of God, the subject of this clause, and the shift of pronoun from "me" to "him" in the next, many mss read אֲשֶׁראֵתאַלֵי ('ale 'et 'asher, "to the one whom") rather than the MT's אֲשֶׁראֵתאֵלַי ('ela 'et 'asher, "to me whom"). The reasons for such alternatives, however, are clear--they are motivated by scribes who found such statements theologically objectionable--and they should be rejected in favor of the more difficult reading (lectio difficilior) of the MT.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

I think the writer was repeating words as though God were prophesying at first, and then shifts to himself prophesying and uses the second person, rather than God continuing to speak in first person and using a second person pronoun.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

Praxeas – go for it!

It will be another three days before I can get started (my wife is having “minor” surgery). And it will most likely take another three days to get the job done. Meanwhile, it will be interesting to see how we each render this passage.

Re: When "I" became a "Him"
 

That would be unusual since he started off saying "I"...he is being the mouth piece for God. God is speaking verbatim. So then God would be saying "they will mourn for me" but the prophet changed it to "him"...that would be a violation of prophetic law would it not? adding or changing the word of God?