What do you think of this?
 

A UPC church has a multicultural congregation. A local PAW does not nor does the local Apostolic Assembly. The AA is all Latino. The AA church has actively sought to take away Latino saints from the UPC. The Pastor of the AA is ok with it. The PAW Pastor gave an invitation to church members when he was at the UPC where he was welcomed to attend. Well one of the UPCs saints went and visited and stayed and the PAW pastor never called.

Members of the AA used to visit the UPC and actually would try to talk Latino members to change churches.

I personally find this disturbing. On the one hand it is unethical to actively try to get saints to change churches. On the other hand I am bothered by the "our kind" mentality. I thought segregation was a racist ideal.

The AA has in the past first gotten the wife to leave the UPC and go to their church, then they tell the husband he needs to follow his wife. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Anyways, the UPC pastor wanted to be able to get together with the other oneness churches but now is reluctant to do so because of the sheep stealing activities and the lack of ministerial consideration to call the pastor when one of his saints changed churches.

Is this some sort of growing trend? Aren't there enough sinners out there to reach without having to take a bunch from another church? I fully understand why a Pastor would no longer want to associate with the other churches despite them supposed to be brothers of the faith.

What do you think?

Re: What do you think of this?
 

I experienced that when I lived in Grand Bay, AL.

I attended the local UPCI church there, and I was the only Black member there. I loved this church and would not have become a member any where else.

But there was an predominately Black Ind. Apostolic church close by. In fact, the church was all Black. One or two of the brothers of that church encouraged me to leave my church to join theirs.

The Pastor of that church hinted at it too, and said that my current Pastor would understand. They also questioned my stance on UPCI standards.


In the end, I realized the Lord led me to that church and there I stayed.

It didn't bother me then because, strangely enough, the stuff they were saying made sense at the time and the questions they were posing seemed sincere. There were a few times I was very lonely. Now I see that I was being seen only as another potential member, not really a friend.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Sheep Stealing is never God's way. And the excuses some take for sheep stealing are horrendous.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

While I agree............ let me stir the pot.

How can I "steal" a sheep that does not belong to you or I. I thought they were HIS sheep. :stirpot

Re: What do you think of this?
 

It comes down to basic ethics.

Any "man of God" should know that sheep stealing is unethical.... and the fact that they're "cherry-picking" their targets based on race makes it even more disturbing.

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I agree.

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Would be nice if God would have given us some specific scripture on this.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

My take:

None of the "sheep" in the church I pastor are mine. Therefore no one can steal them from me. I can't have "dibs" on anyone. If we are serving them and their needs are being met, we have no reason to fear them leaving and going somewhere else.

However, if we just expect people to put up with inferior ministry because "our" church is where they got saved, we're fools, IMO.

A few years ago, I had a number of folks from the local PAW church begin attending. There were some serious "secret" moral issues involved, which if came to light, would have destroyed the pastor. It's not my job to do that, so I left the sleeping dog lie. One of the folks was their choir director and also the pastor's Sec'y.

She now loves NLC, the freedom she has and is a blessing. The PAW pastor called her about a year ago and told her that the Lord told him to tell her that she needed to leave our church NOW! At first, I was upset, but she doesn't belong to me. I counseled her to do what the Lord led her to do. She knew what she would be going back to if she left. She decided to stay and now this man no longer has control over her.

I have far more important things to do than to worry about who is trying to take members from NLC. If all they are is members, then they WILL find someplace else who will love them. However, if they're family and receive ministry and love, they're probably not going to want to go elsewhere.

I don't fault anyone for leaving if I am too arrogant to do what it takes to minister to them or their family.

Anyone is welcome here and anyone is welcome to leave! That is freedom, and it sure keeps my blood pressure low! :D

Re: What do you think of this?
 

But that is totally different than you seeking them out to become members of your church.

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Excellent post and attitude.

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Yep. The territorialists cant fathom this ...

Also I'm sure there a various sides to this story ...

Each case being unique and "justifiable" ... at least in the story teller's eyes.

The problem that happens here .... is that "franchising" in each fellowship ... gives a traditional Apostolic limited choices in their individual cities ... causing immediate friction for maintaining and sometimes competing for "saved" souls

The poisonous fruit of a "us four, and no more" paradigm.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Although the situations are different, (the former bringing race into the equation) I think our response should be the same.

Pastors should pray for thier saints, counsel them and ultimately let God look after it and keep a good spirit and lines of communication open. There may come a time when that saint who decided to leave needs to come home and they need to know the doors and arms are open.

It does trouble me that a church would try to pull members from another church on basis of race... I think that is the part that troubles the poster as well.

I think that is the main theme of this thread, and the "sheep-stealing" secondary.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

I once attended a church where the pastor informed the pastor in a neighboring town that there was this certain road that was the "boundary".

The pastor was not to knock doors etc past that road.

Apparently this would be reaching out in his territory.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

It's easy to jump to that conclusion, however the original post expresses the most concern over the race issue.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

I understand the "free to come, free to go" mentality.

However, there is some merit to objecting to someone who sows division and actively seeks to persuade someone to go to another assembly, for various reasons.

I also agree that trying to get a person to go to another church simply because of their race is disturbing.

I understand DA & MOW's points, and I don't think we need to be territorial, per se, but if it was one of MY friends, I would be upset if someone was filling their ears with divisive double speak simply to add to the success of another congregation. How selfish! To try to get someone to go to another church, when they're already saved right where they are! (Assuming there aren't any serious problems.) Those "sheep-stealers" are focusing on moving converts, rather than converting new believers.

DA, don't you have anything to say about such behavior? Address it from both sides, instead of just being critical of the "territorialists."

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Sheep stealers are only interested in themselves. If they were focused on the kingdom of God, they would be spending time witnessing to sinners, not pulling on members of other churches.

Talk about "poisonous fruit."

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Excellent point. And very true.

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There is a natural tendency for people to hang more comfortably with folks of their same race when all things are equal. This changes as as you get to know people.

Pastors who take advantage racially to steal new converts from another church are despicable, IMO! :foottap

Re: What do you think of this?
 

the sheep are not mine...so they cannot be stolen from me. the sheep belong to God...and if anyone tries to steal them away from Him...vengence is His...not mine.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

I think it's really a bummer.
It does seem to be what humans do.
I think it provides another data point supporting my view that our assemblies are much more accurately descriptions of clubs than God's own church.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Edjen, I really think most people are smart enough to understand this. However, "sheep stealer" is a good word for people who sow division so they can personally reap the benefits of increasing the size of their own congregation. They are wolves.

I am VERY careful when fellowshipping with folks from other churches that I don't criticize their pastor/leadership, even if I disagree with them. To do so would be sowing discord. If someone wants to come to our church, I think we should welcome them, but still be courteous to their previous leadership. At the same time, we shouldn't be "welcoming" them before they even make a decision to move.

THAT is the problem. The welcoming of other saints is happening way too early in the game.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

MissBrattified echos my feelings. It's very frustrating to win souls, built a family that is working together to serve him and reach more souls then to have a church across town try to build their own work by secretly coming to your members and convincing them to leave that church and join them. And it is disturbing that a Pastor would stoop to that level rather than reach lost souls.

The race issue makes all the more disturbing

Re: What do you think of this?
 

while I agree that most should understand this....i'm not sure most practice this attitude.

regarding fellowship and welcoming other Christ-followers...i guess i don't see how that can happen "too early in the game". i'm not trying to be difficult...but i don't see the Jesus-principle in asking someone to make a proclamation of where they will be attending church this week/month/year.

I do believe that God-led pastors, leaders, and a stable church enviroment can help a believer grow...but i guess my approach would be to teach them about the benifits of this...and not focus on how long they've been where and with whom.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Seems to me the issue was one church actively focusing on taking or convincing saints to leave one church for theirs. I can't understand then why anyone here would focus on the church that these saints were "recruited" from. It's one thing for a saint to decide the don't like a church and go elsewhere but quite another for churches to attempt to build themselves a little club by convincing members they should leave the other church

Re: What do you think of this?
 

I have to agree with you here, TB. Divisions along a saint's preferences date to Paul's day when he wrote:

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
Divisions in the Church

10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul?

We have divided Christ if somehow we think we have propietary rights over "sheep". It's as devilish as the sin of backbiting, gossiping and spreading false witness.

A real pastor would have the interest of the soul, first. One should accept whether it be immature or not ... that PEOPLE HAVE PERSONAL PREFERENCES.

Some people like a certain type of worship (Spanish, Black, Caucasian, Southern Gospel, Hillsongish, etc) ... different types of preaching styles ... leadership styles ... etc.

As a pastor, I would want a Christian to attend the optimal place where they will work out their own salvation ...

It does not offend me if it's not my ministry... The mission is ... and remains ... to serve.

The idea that one ministry is inferior or superior ... is simply ... perspective.

Yet when the country club mentality is where church rolls, territory and sheer numbers are the benchmark ... then the Kingdom becomes a man's fiefdom.

Christ is not divided. There is one body ... where folks congregate should be left to personal choice without the foolish tug of wars that have stagnated the Apostolic movement ... to bickering, isolation, intrigue, distrust ....

When we start looking at the Church ... as a corporate entity ... we'll stop thinking our local assembly is the only real church in town.

My advice to the "offended" party is ... keep plugging away ... do what we've been called to do ... and stop the vicious circle of victimization and marginalization .... and endless "business" meetings that teeter on character assassinations.

Also, unless there is ample evidence that there is "double speak" being utilized in a coordinated and orchestrated effort ... I usually chalk up these discussions to ... sour grapes.

The issue would be about character .... not "sheep stealing"

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Don't be obtuse, edjen. :) I'm not talking about "fellowship." I believe churches SHOULD fellowship with each other. Fellowship is NOT the same as getting with another saint from another church and spending time convincing them that they belong elsewhere. Even if it's TRUE, and even if they have CAUSE, it's wrong on the part of the persuasive party.

I'll never forgot a pastor who pastored in a neighboring city from my father. We had moved to Louisiana, but we were home in Missouri for a wedding. At the wedding, the pastor walked up to our table, in front of my father, and said, "Hey, when you decide to move back, we would love to have you come do music for us!" (Seriously--not joking.) I really wanted to slap him, first for disrespecting my father enough to make the statement right in front of him, and secondly for assuming that we would have ever attended anywhere but my father's church, if we moved back.

Now, maybe my (inward) reaction was uncalled for, but I lost respect for that man, and it made me angry to boot. :foottap

Small churches especially have a hard time surviving, and no one needs to be taking saints from other churches. Each church needs to work together as a team to win the lost, and how can they be a team if another church is constantly picking off their team members?

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Of course, DA, and I have no problem with people choosing where they attend. I object to pastors who use manipulative tactics to keep their saints under their thumb. I don't care about the reasoning, either. Some people simply want a church that is close to their home. Nothing at all wrong with that.

It doesn't offend me either, for a saint to CHOOSE. It does offend me for a member of another church to deliberately affect their choice to their own advantage.

I completely agree, but you still have not addressed the issue from the perspective of people who would attempt to persuade others to leave their assembly and go elsewhere, and the motivation behind such. :foottap

It sounds like the UPC pastor is trying to do just that, but with some reasonable concerns based on past acts of division.

So address the character, and I still think that "sheep stealing" is a reasonable label for those who make a concentrated effort to relocate the saints from another assembly into their own.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

The only "marketing" that should be taking place is toward unbelievers. The church as a whole should be focused on evangelism.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

I KNOW of pastors who have put in serious effort to "woo" key people from other churches, because they needed a youth leader or sunday school teacher or just wanted bigger tithes payers. I don't care how you frame that, that is unethical and speaks ill of that pastor's character.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Again, unless there is a memo, a video, etc ... a smoking gun ... this stuff usually boils down to he said, she said. In this case, there is none ...just some poster's recounting of a situation.

The principles remain the same for a pastor or saint ... backbiting is a sin.

In these terrritorial fights (yes, that's what they are)... usually there is backbiting on both sides ... I've seen it enough to know that all it does is lead to disfellowship.

Churches make coordinated efforts all the time to appeal to the saved and unsaved ... it's par for the course ... with their progams, format, signage, etc

The problem would arise if it was based on backbiting ... just as I think that if the person who has lost members ... should not engage in it ... after his number's dwindle ... at the expense of the person who has benefitted from the increase.

When it's all said and done ... the Kingdom of God ... should come first.

Move forward .... do it better. No such thing as "sheep stealing" ... in and of itself. They are His.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Are there any reliable statistics (this would not include "evangelistically speaking") that show how Oneness churches grow? What I'm asking is what percentage of people come as sinners getting saved as compared to the percentage of people who come from other churches? Isn't most church growth from folks who switch churches? Not being critical, just wondering.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Sam this is very much untrue for the church I attend. There are new people coming in all the time. While Pentecostals do move in - and out, the greater problem is long-term retention. They go out the back door - and I think this is a problem not unique to Oneness Pentecostals.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

There is some REAL hurt that takes place when one pastor deliberately robs another pastor not only of his church members, but often the relationship that existed between that pastor and the saint.

There are cases when the pastor who is doing the "stealing" deliberately sabotages the existing pastor with innuendos and "backbiting" in his attempts to persuade the saints to go elsewhere, and OFTEN it works like a charm.

Are you actually a pastor, or were you just speaking hypothetically earlier?

I agree, the Kingdom of God should come first, and taking saints from other churches, whether by good marketing or underhanded tactics isn't about the Kingdom of God. It's about a man (or woman) increasing their own personal kingdom or fiefdom.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

And of course, there is the "robbing" of tithes.:sad

We'll agree to disagree at how we view the Church of God.

Obviously, MissB ... the UPC pastor is the victim in your eyes ... sans evidence ... perhaps bias affects your judgment?

Re: What do you think of this?
 

I don't view it any differently, DA. I'm smart enough to understand the concept that the church is bigger than a single assembly. :)

However, to pretend that the IDEAL does away with the practical issues at hand is either obtuse or naive.

My father pastored for 25 years. When people left he was heartbroken, and NOT over money. Even when people had good, valid reasons, he still hated to see them go. More often than not, the reasons weren't personal, but sometimes they were. It didn't matter. I've seen him agonize over folks because he was afraid another pastor wouldn't understand them or spend enough time with them or even cater to their needs--and sometimes he was right. There have been people backslide because they were led (selfishly) into a church that only wanted to use them for their money or talents, and had no real interest in their eternal good.

Many pastors ROB others of their saints BECAUSE of the resulting increase in their own tithes. THAT'S so much more noble, right? LOL!!!!

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Whatever. LOL!!! I wasn't even thinking about it from that point of view. My father was at times independent, UPC, AMF, ALJC and was NEVER, at any point, a "company man." I don't have loyalties to an organization, therefore I don't possess the bias you think you perceive. ;)

Anyway, there aren't enough details to determine one way or another in the specific situation presented--there rarely are. In general, though, I agree that it is an "attack" for a pastor or saint to deliberately relocate saints from another assembly for their own personal gain. JMO

And I'm not agreeing to disagree because I'm not done arguing. :D

Re: What do you think of this?
 

My dad pastored just as many years, Miss B.... we had divisions internally and he too adjudicated over these type of messes as a district presbyter and leader in the Spanish minsitry ...

The meetings, the witnesses ... the phone calls, the letters, the whining, boohoing, BACKBITING, etc ... wasted a lot of his VALUABLE time ... and, I believe, the time and energy of others ...

because it usually was based on he said, she said.

Usually it resulted in hurt feelings all around ... someone being disfellowshipped ... and fueds that may last for decades ....

ALL FOR WHAT ????

It's time we move on ... and stop being territorial ...

someone goes ... LET IT BE. It hurts, sure ... We're supposded to be big SEASONED boys and girls.

But too much time has been wasted on sorting these issues and USUALLY it results in HIGHLY CHARGED OPINIONS ... not FACTS.

Any pastor who thinks that their sheep have been stolen ... needs to re-evaluate the mission.

AND YES ... LOVE MONEY ... IS THE ROOT OF EVIL ... and does play a role in a lot of this .... some way or another.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Your father handled it differently than mine did, apparently. My father never brought charges against a single man, nor did he disfellowship any other churches. He would put in a polite phone call when someone came to our church, but never demanded it from other pastors. (Who didn't usually offer it anyway.)

As for being territorial...when you have seen lives damaged by selfish men, it does create some protective feelings on the part of any pastor who cares about the congregation he is supposed to look after. Territorialism is underscored by men who care so much about increasing their personal kingdoms that they spend more time wooing members of other churches than they do evangelizing a fresh harvest.

Are you a pastor?

Re: What do you think of this?
 

The meetings and such ... were part of his adjucating problems as district presbyter between pastors who were bickering ... part of the fun, I guess!!!

Dad usually made the polite courteous calls when it came to his local church, also.

Presently, I am not pastoring ... We have put the Spanish ministry on hold for now ... since the wedding announcement and subsequent wedding.

Re: What do you think of this?
 

Oh, I see. That goes with the job, I guess. No fun at all, I wouldn't want to be involved in any of that.

:) Understandable!!!! And a wise decision!

But you have pastored before?