Babylon in Revelations
 

My husband and I were discussing the stock market this morning- Neither of us are prophecy buffs, but my husband is reading Revelations currently. He commented if Babylon in the Book of Revelations could possibly be the Stock Market. What do you think ?

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

In the Babylon found in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ it is stated that...

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


Jesus clearly stated....

Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

IMO, it would seem to be a bigger system then any equity trading market since it would span most, if not all, of human history.

Whatever establishes "money markets" in any civilization's experience would be consistent with the imagery we read in Rev.

Just my 2-cents worth...and just a supposition at this point.

Your post and D4T's scriptural cite, stirred in my thinking, the possibility that the prophets and saints may have been draw into temptations (by their own lusts). The methaphor of a 'great whore" would be consistent with a seductive spirit capable of inticing those who still have a love directed toward possessing the things of this present world.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

I think there is a possibility that Babylon is connected with money systems, and trading systems or world wide money systems. It is an interesting thought- Any more comments would be appreciated.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

For the money system to be Babylon the great... the great whore etc it would have to fulfill the attributes laid out in the descriptive terms given in Revelation.

Any speculation without said system fulfilling those descriptive requirements would be moot and outside of the confines of the word of God.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

thanks for the contribution and the perspective.

I will take some time this evening and attempt to list the 'descriptive requirements" and see if there is not a possible linkage to the attributes presented in a book of "imagery".

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

I look forward to hearing your results.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

"Revelation" is singular!!!!!!


Argh! :(

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

for whatever reason, this post reminded me of my years as a bible quizzing coach.

3-part question might be:
Who gave what to whom according Revelation 1:1 (reminder...be careful of the pronoun rule!)

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Not only is it not Reveltions....

It is The Revelation Of Jesus Christ.

That title doesn't fit many interpretations of the book.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Ahhhhhhhhhhh Bible quizzing...

Been there... done that. LOL

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

I believe it is probably America.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Supposition, pure and simple.

No Biblical backup at all!

Brethren, give us Scriptures.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Hi Brother,

My supposition is built on several things. Number one that we are living at the beginning of the end times.

If THAT is true what nation on Earth today fits this:

7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11: And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: Rev. 18:7-11

Who buys most of the worlds goods? Is it not us? Is it not hard to find things made in the USA?

What would happen to the high finance merchants around the world if America was devestated with a nuclear attack?

15: The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16: And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17: For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18: And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19: And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev. 18:15-19

Could the same be said of any other nation in existence today? The worlds merchants would wail and mourn?

Some will say this has not happened.

24: And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev. 18:24

And its true except for a few martys here and there.

But that does not mean it wont. It could happen here just like it has happened in other great nations.

Speculation ? Yes? Got anything better for me to believe?

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

You stopped just shy of the parts that would begin to give your speculation trouble.

Again... one inescapable thing to note... she is guilty of ALL of the blood of the prophets.

Jesus called Jerusalem the city that kills the prophets and said that he would have to travel nearly 3 days to get to Jerusalem because "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem".

You did well to stop at verse 19 because the speculation you are making wouldn't hold up many more verses.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

D4T,
I am still quivering under my desk in the fetal :bigbabyposition, just plain skeerd to take on this issue because I know you've got some "partial preterist punch pending".:smack

Since our last exchange, I have sought God's counsels and have meditated on some scriptural settings, in particular: Jer 51:6-12, Rev 14:7-12, 16:15-21, 17 1-7, and Rev 18.

My premise (admittedly a bias) is that the city of Babylon we read about in the OT would be a foreshadow of what Mystery Babylon would be in the realm of spiritual dynamics.

I submit that as Jerusalem was a center in the dynamic of natural Israel and New Jerusalem is the revelation of God's holy assembly, the same applies to Babylon and Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babyon will not be a place, but rather a community comprised of believers in some false salvation (I was searching for God to provide me some clearer phrase to express this, but for now I do not have a better one). The power that comes from earthly wealth is worshipped as the alternative to abiding in God's house. This is why I made an earlier reference to Balaam as a natural example; seeing gain as godliness.

We read in Jerimiah 51:7 that Babyon was God's GOLDEN CUP and those nations that drink from it become drunken, the identical language is applied to the Great Whore of Rev 17:4.

Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

The fornication bears a fruit. The fruit supplies the feedstock for a wine. The wine induces a drunken condition.

I continue to be drawn to a couple of strange things:
SEDUCTION is at the core of this MYSTERY BABYLON, but I am confident it is not in any manner SEXUAL. Since we understand the power of seduction as it pertains to a harlot and fornications, it is used as the language to convey the imagery; the rulers, kings, and nations are drawn to her ability to provide pleasures.

Then the most fascinating thing is recorded by John in Rev 17:6

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

John looked upon this imagery WITH GREAT ADMIRATION. An image that he understood to be drunken with blood of Saints and martyrs.

What ever it is, its seduction transcends our normal ability to even imagine; its inticements are fully enveloped with a mystical charm and beauty (of some kind). So much so, that it prompts the angel to ask:

Wherefore didst thou marvel?

So. prompted by this thread's OP, I speculated and proposed a MYSTERY (spiritual) alternative [faith] that 'invests' all confidence in the riches (a Golden Cup) in the economies of this world. Then, I wondered outloud (possibly, in hindsight a mistake), concerning whether the blood of saints and martyrs may resulted from something similar to what charmed John...that in looking into this Golden Cup of Mystery Babylon, their vision was overtaken by something 'marvelous' and they were trapped.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

I will respond to your post in more detail a little later on...

I think that the combination of the prophets blood & what Jesus had to say is a very formidable consideration. Although no one is commenting on this aspect that failure to address such has made me appear as a one string guitarist so I will be forced to relent from bringing this up again and again.

But... making this quick post. The application of the Book Of The Revelation Of Jesus Christ will also have to do with the intended time of application.

Revelation 1:1 (a seemingly good place to start) tells us...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

I know that we have spoken about this before and I am aware of your feelings about time and the Bible's freedom from the constraints of such.

But doesn't the Bible say "Not many days hence" and other such time related terminologies. Are we to be able to have no faith whatsoever in the utterances of the word of God when it deals with time?

I bring this up because as long as we can take the template of the writings of Revelation and apply them any place we see a fit down the timeline of history then there are, assuredly, a number of places it would fit.

But whomever this great whore is she cannot fulfill 92% of the words spoken about her. She must fulfill them all since those words were penned from the very mouth of God.

My apologies that I haven't offered any answer to your questioning... as long as this post is... I am in a hurry and have to get back to work.

Please let me know what stirrings this brings in your own mind and what questions they compel you to offer me.

We learn most when we discuss with people who don't see things exactly like ourselves. That is when new and previously unsought realities begin to be placed within our minds. This is when growth occurs and I appreciate your input.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Well, you have some problems with lining these Scriptures up with the Good Old USA.

7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

When was she married to God? This is a direct takeoff of the Old Testament.

Lam 1:1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!
Lam 1:2 She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.
Lam 1:3 Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.
Lam 1:4 The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.

We see here that Jerusalem is called a Widow.

Brother Michael

What say you?

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

dig,
you know I have the utmost respect for your approach and demeanor involving discussion of scripture.

Somehow this particular topic feels like we are riding two different rails through the same station. We can see each other, but we did not start at the same point and imagine different destinations.

I connect the Great Whore, with Mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlots.

My view of the scriptures we call the NT is that they testify of principles involving INVISIBLE things; things that have their reality in that which is ABOVE the earthly realm; the spiritual realm.

As such, I have never been big on looking to Rome or to Jerusalem or even to the US as being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots. This seduction transcends any one earthly kingdom or power.

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

I tossed that idea out in my first post. I bumped into something that you feel is a principle being ignored (things can not be 92% applicable). I have 0% problem agreeing with you on this hermeneutical requirement.

As one setting out to further chart an unknown river, I think it would be impossible to outline the whole trip to recruit other explorers.

If you already possess a 100% applicable "great whore" (I feel so funny writing that line), please catch me up.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some of your thinking here.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

TBPEW

I will also allow Diggin to make his own reply, but you raise a very interesting point, one of which I have considered before myself.

One of the problems that I have with total and absolute preterism is that, it seems to be, in one way, similar to Futurism, in that they both seem to be extremes. I have brought up to others the idea of a principal or spirit of Babylon, one that reoccurs throughout time. If we take and apply that as a principal theory then it does change things a bit.

I don't know, it is interesting though and one that I have personally looked at for some time!

TJJJ

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Yes sir. I can certainly agree with this thought. The scriptural admonition that the love of money is the root of all evil is, indeed, a universal one that continues for as long as mankind breathes air on this earth.

The scriptures being discussed in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ would, most certainly, be the result of said tendency within the nature of man. That love of money, hence power, would be the base and driving force that led that great whore etc to her place of total and complete apostasy.

The basic thought that I have trying to get someone to address is this.

1. It is said in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ that the great harlot (or whatever other names that city is known by) is guilty of the blood of the prophets.

2. Jesus said of Jerusalem...

Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ also said that great city would be made desolate.

These things do not, of their own accord, make Jerusalem the undeniable lone candidate but they would seem to, most certainly, make that great city a worthy candidate for careful consideration.

The identity of this great city had already been shared in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The city would sit on seven mountains.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Jerusalem sits on Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

There may very well be some overflowing universal application that we see played over and over again as man continues to fall for the love of money that comes so naturally but these scriptures seem, to me, to speak to a very real city have a very literal application.

I don't deny, in the least, the universal application that you speak of. But I do not feel that any universal application would be so sans any specific and tangible interpretation. Especially in the face of such a growing cloud of witnesses.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

No way it is Jerusalem. In the first century when it fell (again) the merchants of the Earth spent no time wailing and mourning. It was nothing economically compared to Rome. Neither did its judgment come in one hour. It was beseiged over time.

In this century Jerusalem would not survive more than a few weeks without the assistance of the USA. There is no comparison whatever between the economic might of America and Israel.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Jesus said that all the blood shed on the earth was to be meted upon Jerusalem's head. The end of rev 18 shows the Babylon of Revelation to have been slain and in her was found the blood of all shed on the earth.

If we allow the bible to interpret itself, Jerusalem of old was the Babylon when John wrote Revelation. She became what she was delivered from, herself.

Matthew 23:35 KJV That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Two different parties cannot be said to have ALL the blood shed on earth. Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of it all since Abel to Zecharias. If the Babylon of Revelation is not the same Jerusalem, then she could not have ALL the blood on earth in her, because Jerusalem was guilty of that from at least the time of Abel to Zecharias.

While this view takes away the sensationalism away from prophecy from some views' perspectives, it puts the focus of the doom and gloom under the canopy of the time surrounding the cross, which is more correct, overall, anyway.

MTD, you just have to see that revelation uses biblical imagery and is not face-valued. Otherwise, if you're correct, Rev 18 cannot say someone other than Jerusalem had ALL The blood of the earth that was shed in her.

If Jerusalem was left with only the blood from Abel to Zecharias, although Jesus said she would be guilty of scourgings and crucifixions, and Babylon in Rev 18 was someone else, then Rev 18 could not say ALL. It could only say ALL SINCE the date when Jerusalem was gone, due to the innumerable deaths Jerusalem caused from Jesus' own words.

So we either realize Revelation (without an "S" -- ;) ) is SYMBOLIC, or else there is a contradiction between the two verses I cited above. What makes more sense? You can find a parallel picture of every single Revelation symbol used when you look elsewhere in the Bible, showing us that Revelation took pictures from the rest of the Bible and applied them symbolically like a TYPE and SHADOW to the events Revelation was actually referring to in John's day. This shows it is SYMBOLIC.

See if MERCHANTS can be understood spiritually of something associated with Jerusalem.

Recall that Jesus said the moneychangers turned the temple in to a den of thieves. Without a temple.....

My thoughts, anyway.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Thanks for all the comments- I will be more careful about typing Revelation(s) from now on! :)

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Mike,
Your post invites us to allow the bible to interpret itself.
I am now purposing to apply that same principle to my reading of your post.

Are you establishing Mystery Babylon as Jerusalem?

I presently am left to surmise this (pending your own interpretation of your own post:thumbsup) because your words include:
"Two different parties cannot be said to have ALL the blood shed on earth. Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of it all since Abel to Zecharias. If the Babylon of Revelation is not the same Jerusalem, then she could not have ALL the blood on earth in her, because Jerusalem was guilty of that from at least the time of Abel to Zecharias. "

May I also inquire as to how you place Abel's murder in (or comissioned by) Jerusalem? I can not get Luke 11 to triangulate on Jerusalem in my reading.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Don't be too hard on yourself....afterall, if the removal of the plurality-causing 's' is of signficance and value, dropping the ...'of Jesus Christ' is disasterous.:foottap

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Very true!

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Raven,
could you share how your perspective would make the scriptural witness that this "Mystery Babylon" is:
1. The mother of all harlots
2. Drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs.

I am just trying to pull some more stuff out of you. I am not positioning for any kind of :gotcha.

The discussion has turned out to be rather interesting (to me) and I would like to see folks with well established views share them openly.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Revelation 18 said Babylon was guilty of all blood shed on earth. Jesus claimed Jerusalem was guilty of that in Matthew 23. I am just saying ther eis contradiction if we claim Babylon is not Jerusalem. And I am implying need for an explanation as to how it would not be contradictory for Babylon to not be Jerusalem.

I am just quoting Jesus. I did not say Jerusalem committed the murder, but that Jesus put the guilt for it on Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:35 KJV That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

A cup was being filled everytime someone was murdered. Someone was going to come good for it. It turned out that Jerusalem filled the cup! So the wrath for those murders was meted out upon her. Revelation reflects that in speaking of Babylon.

Watch this connection to Jerusalem as well:

Babylon was guilty of the blood of all slain on the earth, the prophets and the saints. (Rev 18:24).

That blood made Babylon drunk along with the kings of the earth. The blood was from the golden cup in Babylon's hand. (Rev. 17:6, 2, 4)

Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of all the blood of the prophets that was shed upon the earth all the way back to Abel. (Matt 23:31, 35)

Jesus also said Jerusalem filled the measure. A cup is in view. (Matt 23:32)

Jerusalem asked for the BLOOD to be put upon her and her children (my daughters) (Mat 27:25)?

The Apostle said that Babylon would be given the cup of the fierceness of God's wrath (Rev 16:19).

Paul said this wrath was for those guilty of the killings of the prophets and Jesus. (1 Thess 2:15, 16)

God will avenge (Rev 18:20).

Babylon was called that GREAT CITY (Rev. 16:19; 17:18)

The great City was where our Lord was crucified (Rev 11:8).

Jerusalem was once a FAITHFUL CITY (Isa. 1:21)

Isaiah 1:21 KJV How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Babylon sits on 7 mountains (Rev 17:9)

Jerusalem became the whore on many hills and sits on seven mountains (Jer 2:20).

Jerusalem played the harlot time and time again as noted throughout Ezekiel 16. Read entire chapter and note the kings of the earth are mentioned. WORLD powers.

Acts 4 has the disciples praying about the persecution from the leaders of Jerusalem and Israel who worked TOGETHER WITH THE KINGS OF THE EARTH. (Acts 4:26-28)

Acts 4:26-28 KJV The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, (28) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Revelation 17:1-2 KJV And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: (2) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Ezekiel 16:28-29 KJV Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. (29) Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Re: Babylon in Revelations
 

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jesus said the guilt for all the blood shed on the earth was to be put upon Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:35 KJV That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

And Jesus said that a prophet, whose blood was found in the harlot, cannot be shed except in Jerusalem.

Luke 13:33 KJV Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

So, how was the prophet's blood found in the harlot Babylon, if Babylon was not Jerusalem, if Jesus said no prophet should be slain outside Jerusalem?