He Was More than Just a Man
 

I need help in witnessing to someone who believes that she is a Christian, but also believes that Jesus is not God, just the Son of God. She, in fact, believes she has a 'special revelation' that requires this belief.

She teaches perfection.
That it can be attained only by the knowledge that Jesus was just a man anointed by God from birth, who was tempted and yet overcame without sinning.
If He were truly God, there is no hope for us to live without sin because we're NOT God.


In other words,

Can You be a Christian if You believe that Jesus was just a man filled with God's Spirit?

If not, why not?

She says she believes that Jesus is who He says he is in His Word,(Son of Man, etc) and we should judge her fruit to decide if she is redeemed.

She says that Jesus NEVER said "I AM GOD".

John 8:56 says:

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Is this as close as Jesus comes to saying 'I am God'?

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Jesus never said "I am God"? Yes that is true, but he did allude to it. Probably why is explained in Phil 2 where Paul argues he existed in the form of God...but humbled Himself.

It seems to me her argument is not really based on scriptures though but on her belief that she is or has to be perfectly sinless because Jesus was. And if Jesus was God, but not a man, then she can't be perfectly sinless...sounds like a circular argument.

Also, what if she does sin? What if she does commit a sin...just one...in say a 10 year period? Using her argument then that would mean her belief was wrong to begin with...using her argument. For her entire argument is built on the assumption that she can be and will be sinlessly perfect by believing Jesus was just a man, because he was just a man.

However, the other fallacy is that in saying Jesus is God she seems to think that means we deny he was a man. That is completely untrue.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Thanks for Your thoughts.


She says she must be sinless because Jesus told many to "Go and sin no more."


Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

While a Christian doesn't practice a lifestyle of sin,if a believer does commit a sin,they can repent and obtain forgiveness.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Brother Scott,
Don't Apostolics teach that we can live without sin?
Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Sister we teach that one can live a Holy life, but if a believer does commit a sin,they can ask forgiveness,but if one is truly saved they don't practice a lifestyle of open sin.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

The Apostolic Church I went to years ago taught that all sins were to be confessed to the Pastorto receive forgiveness and stay in right standing. It was a heavy weight to bear and before long I fell out.......was always feeling condemed.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Luke 1:35
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 10:36
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God ?

Matt 16:16-17
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Let's just simply let the Scripture speak for itself. Jesus is without a doubt, the Son of God! Some seem to shy away from this truth. Others want to say, "Oh I know it says that but we really know he is ........" [Whatever it is they are trying to prove]
Jesus told Peter, that the revelation is that, he indeed is the Son of God!
I'm afraid we "oneness" believers are close to being like the Mormons and JW's with extra-Biblical "revelations" we conjured up somewhere. This post won't go over well with some but that's alright the Truth will "dawn" eventually on them. To glibly pass over the truth that there is a Father and there is a Son in the Word, is to miss the glorious truth that God wants to perform in us as sons of God. This is what this Grand Plan of God is all about.
Raven

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Nice Strawman. Just because we admit to the scriptures that speak of His Deity does NOT mean we shy from the truth of those scriptures you posted. There is no extra biblical revelation either.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Raven,

This is a weak attempt to have, like the Mormons and JW's, a dual godhead. They believe just like you are explaining.

The son refers to the sonship, the humanity indwelled by the Spirit of God. How else could we, mere mortals, become, like Jesus, sons and children of God?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The son refers to the flesh that the spirit resided in. We are sons today because when we recieve the Holy Ghost the spirit now resides in our flesh.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Don't mistake the flesh for the diety.

TJJJ

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Jesus is both the Father and the Son.

6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

That is the doctrine of Christ which we must believe.

If Jesus is the Son he of necessity also the Mighty God-Everlasting Father.

Apostolic people should rejoice over this and not be insecure.

As to the doctrine of sinless perfection every single New Testament Church should be teaching it.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1 John 5:20

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Brother,

She would agree with every Scripture You've cited.
She would also say that they don't prove He is God.
Only that He is the 'Son of God.'

Thank You for the time You've taken to add to the conversation.

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Brother,

Can You be a Christian if You make this mistake?


If not, why not?

Thank You for Your input.
I need help.

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Could You explain it in a nutshell?

And can it be attained if You believe Jesus is just a man anointed by God?

Thank You,
Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Ask her what does being the Son of God mean and then what does being the Son of Man mean?

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Thanks Prax, I will.

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Are you saying that You can be saved if You don't believe that Jesus is God?

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Would You go so far as to say that Jesus was NOT God?

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Do you have a copy of the tract/chart available from the UPC Publishing House called "Wheel of Prophecy"? It shows scriptures showing that Jehovah is Shepherd, King, Creator, etc and that He is God and then it shows that Jesus is Shepherd, King, Creator, etc. and that He is God. That might help.

See the attachment with this post (if it works)

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Hi Nina,

In a nutshell its living your life without sin. Although we have been told by men this is not possible the scriptures give a much different story.

There is a great amount of detail to it but if I only were allowed one scripture to describe what I mean it would be this:

12: Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God Col. 4:12

Thats it! Be perfect and complete in THE WILL OF GOD.

One can live this and believe that Yeshua is a man annointed by God. That is if he ALSO believes Yeshua IS GOD.

I believe it is a sin to disbelieve in the deity of Yeshua. It may take some time for the message of it to sink in but if one has the Spirit in them I think this will eventually be revealed.

So its important to believe he was/is a man anointed by God. Also that he IS God.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Thanks again for Your time.

Do You live without sin?

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Good question!!


Bump!

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

I have one of these.
Thanks for the reminder.
I will study it.

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

By Gods grace Im not aware of any sin in my life. But one must not think thats something big. No thats just whats supposed to be normal to a disciple of Yeshua.

The problem is mens traditions have made it seem as if SIN were the victor over the Saint. As if someone who was overcoming it were some super spiritual person. Rather the Apostolic writings make as if its NORMAL for the Saint to walk in the Spirit.

5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Gal. 5:22-24

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

This thread reminds me of this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB0nQ8Z4_GM

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Do You EVER sin?

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Well sad to say I have sinned since being a Christian. That does not mean I will again by Gods grace. John said "if" we sin we have an advocate even Jesus. So thats also true.

But without doubt God wants his people to follow his will always. Instead of having the mindset that we know we will sin it would be better to have the mindset Paul instructed:

11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 6:11

Count yourself dead to sin.

Sinless perection does not mean its impossible to sin. It is the concept that sin can consistently be overcome one day at a time.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Thanks for Your honesty here.
Were You still in a state of Salvation when You sinned?

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

I believe God grants space for repentance as we see in the case of Jezebel:

20: Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21: And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Rev. 2:20-21

If one continues in sin they should expect chastisment from the Lord. If they still continue in it they should fear that he will cut them off.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Isn't this what 'every single New Testament Church' DOES teach?

When You describe the way this works in Your life it sounds like what I've been taught.

Are You saying 'we MUST' be sinless...and yet You still sin.

And others say, we (theoretically) CAN be sinless...and yet still sin.

???

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Jesus is explicit with satan about who is God.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

No its not the same. Saying I HAVE sinned since becoming a Christian is not the same as saying I am sinning now.

If its the same why do almost all the Preachers OPPOSE the teaching of living without sin?

Its true that many Preachers do lay it out in the same progression I have. Thats good. But do you hear them preaching that Christ expects us to be perfect? How many have you heard?

It thats whats normally taught I dont understand why so many are offended when I or someone else may teach it?

Its actually a very basic message. Devote our lives to Christ. Follow his teachings. IF one would sin they should repent immediately. It should be taught that its RARE for a Christian to sin rather than its rare to overcome it.

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Thank You Coadie.

That's an appropriate Scripture.
I'm ashamed I haven't thought of this.

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Even though most pastors don't teach this, does that absolve saints from striving to live without sinning?

Do You believe that, taught or not, saints desire this standard?

Don't we all know that we shouldn't sin?

Nina

Re: He Was More than Just a Man
 

Raven,
Thanks for reminding those who read your post, that if we let the scripture speak, it will speak of Jesus being the Son of God.

I am confident that the firstfruits and the harvest are always of the same composition.

Your words:
To glibly pass over the truth that there is a Father and there is a Son in the Word, is to miss the glorious truth that God wants to perform in us as sons of God. This is what this Grand Plan of God is all about.
AMEN and AMEN.

I Tim 3:16 is about the mystery of GODLINESS; the creature being partaker in (recipient of) the divine nature.

Seen again in 2Pt 1:3-4
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Thanks for caring enough to share something that bears witness in your spirit and witnessed in the scripture; something that many only give lip service, recitation.