Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

For most of my life, I have been told that we must "catch 'em before we clean 'em." This phraseology is used to explain how the church should teach its traditions to visitors and new converts. The implication being that we should woo the visitor with great preaching, anointed singing and a great deal of love. The further implication being that traditions or "standards" shouldn't be preached to newcomers for fear they will walk away before partaking in the full Pentecostal experience.

To that end, many pastors in Oneness Pentecostal circles do not address traditions and standards from the puplit. These issues are normally addressed in a new convert's class, well after a newcomer has rubbed shoulders with the church for a while. Often newcomers have no idea what is expected of them, and what practical Pentecostalism involves, until they have felt a measure of acceptance within the local assembly.

However, at some point, perhaps months down the road, an effort will be made to assimilate the new convert into our shared culture. At this juncture, core disciplines such as standards of appearance, tithing, and other lifestyle expectations will be broached with the new convert. So, a new convert comes in with a wrong perception of what Pentecostalism is, because we hide things from them from the beginning of our new relationship. This leads to confusion, hurt and a sense of distrust.

I do realize not all churches practice this sort of deception, but I also realize that Pentecostal "bait and switch" does occur.

Wikepedia defines "bait and switch" as follows:

In retail sales, a bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the party putting forth the fraud lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is. The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or product advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product.

I suppose I am most concerned about an incorrect view of Pentecostalism being fed to newcomers. I believe this is why we have so many folks experiencing the New Birth that leave after a short time. They were told to "come as you are" only to later find that statement changed to "come as we are."

Pardon my candor, but I believe we Pentecostal ministers should be honest in our dealings with newcomers. No relationship can withstand deception, especially church relationships.

I honestly do not believe it is proper to tell a potential visitor/convert, who has expressed concern over our standards, to "just come as you are, and God will take care of that." I think they should know what will be expected of members of the local assembly. It is wrong to minimize things we will later tell them are extremely important.

I am not, by any means, advocating beating them over the head with our standards. I am just saying that we should not be ashamed of who we are, and what we believe. "Bait and switch" tactics have no place in Oneness Pentecostalism.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

We preach Holy Ghost baptism to new people who don't understand it.

IF we believe holiness is as essential as the New Birth (and we do), why wouldn't we preach it as stridently?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

While someone may be a "babe in Christ" they are still an adult, capable of rationalization. We view holiness traditions as core doctrine in this movement, and I categorically reject the notion that we view them as somehow secondary in importance to repentance, baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. For goodness sake, we have reams of documents stating such.

Let's be honest here, we know full well what we will expect of any convert. We know what we want them to look like, what we want them to get rid of and so on. We know because we fully expect conformity to our traditional views concerning holiness.

So, why not be up front about it?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

This thread focuses on intent.

If a pastor is conservative, he shouldn't hide that to "catch fish." I am not advocating he preaches standards 24/7. I'm just saying that there should not be an attempt to minimize standards at the beginning, only to change course later.

I seriously doubt most on this forum would consider me ultra-conservative, and some would not even consider me conservative at all. That's cool. But I do try to be consistent. Often I fail, but I do try.

I think the whole "catch 'em before you clean 'em" motto is revealing.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Next you will be pointing out some of the old time Pentecostal church sites that use stock photo's of women with makeup and cut hair as if those women are members!

I thnk it is done to make "sinners" feel welcome but I find it an interesting practice.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Is it a hidden agenda?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Are you serious?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Not relevant at all.
To the carnal mind, Holiness is foolishness, plain & simple.

Why would you want to explain "Holiness Principles" to an unregenerate sinner?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Easy.

We are constantly fed the garbage that "Holiness is a salvational issue."

If my eternal destiny depends on how I dress, you'd better be telling me so.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

And of course I believe in holiness.

I just don't believe some of the tripe we trot out concerning "holiness."

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Bingo!

Exactly my point!

Why do we do that?

And btw, I could point you to sites like you just mentioned.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Certainly, don't you think?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Yup. I have seen a few. I don't think they are trying to be duplicitous. Probably just trying to be welcoming to all people. Which actually goes back to what Edwardo Anglican started this thread about - not being totally upfront about a church's stringent dress code requirements.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Doesn't the Bible say that we are to, "Perfect holiness?":thumbsup

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Interesting point.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

I've seen a few websites with pictures of smiling women wearing pants...it's also made me laugh as to wonder why churches do this.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

If only it had said "perfect dress codes"!

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

There's a preacher I heard of who says that when he gets a new convert, he preaches standards hot and heavy for a month. If they're still there when he's done, he knows they've got the right stuff in them.

I don't think much of that approach myself, but if you do believe that standards are salvational, I guess that is the way to go.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

In many cases, yes. I think EA has pointed out a real problem that gives Pentecostal/Apostolics a black eye all too often.

People end up feeling betrayed by their friends and "brethren." After bonding they end up being bitterly disposed of if they don't go along. Their "failure to mature" is then attributed to some fault or flaw with their carnal nature.

They end up being told that they are "pig's filth" and "dog vomit" for failing to go along with a set of crazily and haphazardly concocted "holiness standards" that vary even from church to church in the same town.

I ended up wondering if it wouldn't be better if we didn't ecompass land and sea to make a complete stranger twice the child of hell that we are. Then, I found a new and better way.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Better than the sites with the smiling women wearing no pants... :lol

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

They probably farmed out their website development to some designer who either wasn't "in the know" and used the free stock photos that are available, or a designer who was "in the know" and decided to have some fun by pretending otherwise. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ons/icon10.gif

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Edwardo Anglican,

You don't sound like a man worried anymore about your associates dropping you in the grease and costing you your license with the Mothership!

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Reminds me of Amway... ;)

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Hey, no problem, dress like a harlot, God don't care, in fact he is everybody's big buddy!:thumbsup

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

roflmbo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

:ursofunny

I am not worried about it.

1. I have not "bashed" anyone.

2. I have not spoken against any published positions.

3. They probably think I am a lost cause.

Look, I love the mothership. I just think we should be up front.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

There ya go.

Again, if my salvation depends upon adherance to a dress code, you have an obligation to tell me so.

Don't wait a few months.

What if I die before you tell me I need to shave to be saved?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

I used to get really mad at people who cornered the new folk about their "look."

Not any longer.

At least they are being truthful.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Ed, How does the Bible define holiness? Is it a separation unto God from something? from sin? from the world? from the customs of the world?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

EA are you trying to make the point that "standards" (what are called holiness standards, but are not) are NOT and NEVER WILL BE salvational issues??

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Separation is, first and foremost, UNTO God.

We are separated, consecrated and/or set apart for Him.

It's like shopping. When we grocery shop, we choose items from the shelves, and place them in our cart with the full intent of purchasing them. The shopper, when choosing, sets the items apart for purchase. He pays the price for them. He purchases them for his own pleasure and purpose.

We are holy because He declares us holy. Because of the price He paid.
Not through works that we have done.


Secondly, we exhibit holiness through a consistent disdain for "worldliness." We separate ourselves FROM ungodly thoughts, actions and locales. We do so in order to maintain right relationship. The aim is to steer away from anything that threatens our relationship with God.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Not at all.

I am only saying that if a person believes all tradition lifestyle standards are salvational, he better be preaching it as plainly as Acts 2:38.

Don't hold anything back.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Customs are different all over the world. True holiness shouldn't be subject to the whims of a society's culture.

For instance, in the middle east, western clothing is not considered holy. How could we win someone to the Lord if we allowed to go there and witness to someone while at the same time offending them by the clothes we wear? What we think is modest and holy in our culture may not be in another culture. Is there a different holiness standard from culture to culture? How can it be true holiness if can vary?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

AMEN

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

This makes sense. The whole counsel of God should be taught.


Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

There's the rub.

Plus, I think two ladies could be wearing the exact same style of clothing, but with different spirits. In some cases, the clothing is not the issue, it's the attitude of the wearer. Otherwise, there are some objects that are definitely contrary to a spirit of holiness.

What do you think?

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

I think you have "gone charismatic". You will find no logic or rhyme or reason for the tradition of Pentecostal legalism in dress code. It is largely based on the traditions of a close religous culture and not clear mandates from the Bible. Once you start questioning them you are on that slippery slope. They cannot be looked at with human logic. They are "pretzel logic" and undestanding pretzel logic is obviously a God given special talent.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

For instance, a Playboy emblem represents a very ungodly system.

IMO, that is an ungodly object, and shouldn't be worn on clothing.

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

I actually have a pair of socks with that emblem on them (didn't realize it when I bought them) but since my pants leg covers it up I wear them.

I can't believe you don't like rabbits!!!!:bigbaby

Re: Bait and Switch: Pentecostal Deception?
 

Si Si Juan,

I live "the old-time way" for the most part.

I do so because I think boundaries are needed.

We go over the cliff, however, when we mandate our own personal boundaries on everybody in the natural born world.