Church Structure
 

I was wondering if I could pose a few questions to my brothers and sisters on here about modern day church structure. I appreciate all feedback.

First, how did we come to where we are today in terms of worshipping in a central building? Is this THE thing to do, or the only effective means of having/building a church?

Also, there have been alot of subjects on here addressing tithing, and I do not want to bring that up again (trust me) - however, if joining a church is like getting married, then when one joins a fellowship, don't we automatically adopt the means wereby the church is sustained (ala, fundraisers, building fund, etc.)?

Also, I know there has been alot said about wheather or not the pastor is the modern day Moses. I don't want to be redundant, but I have heard alot of this over my 16-years in the UPC. In fact the message yesterday had a portion which the preacher (a very dear friend of mine) talked about how God told Moses to set the boundary around the mountain - he added that God did not tell him how to set it, just to set it. Point being, that God would support the boundary set because Moses had the authority by God to set it. Just wondering if any one has heard this type of teaching before and what is your take on it?

He (my friend) also talked about how if a shepherd had a particular sheep that had a propensity for crossing the fence line set by the shepherd, then the shepherd may eventually have to take the same knife that was used to carve identification on it, to kill it, so it would not lead other sheep astray. Just wondering if anyone has heard this also?

My point is not to argue, just to get feedback. I realize we are the sheep of Gods pasture, however, I am not sure how I feel about being compared LITERALLY to an animal. I have actually heard a person say that sheep are "stupid creatures" referring to the flock of God - that always struck me a little funny.

I know there are allogories and parables used by Christ and are also throughout the Bible. Anyway, I have just been pondering, praying, and studying, trying to get some direction on some things. Fire away!!

Re: Church Structure
 

Good questions. Gotta go now but I think this will be an interesting thread.

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Mr. Lemon,

The concept your pastor put forth in his sermon is pretty much SOP in the UPC. It allows the pastor to set whatever dress code / rules he wants with no accountibilty as everything he does is covered by this blanket authority from God as long as it does not contradict the Bible directly.

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Lemon, Are you sour?

Re: Church Structure
 

The way our churches are set up is a mixture of American culture and hangovers from Roman Catholicism and the Reformation.

In the first centuries after the church was formed, it picked up lots of influence from the pagan world around it. The elevation of the church by Constantine was not good. Lots of things changed. What became known as "The Roman Catholic Church" is a mixture of Christianity, Judaism, and paganism. Stuff from the Old Covenant which does not apply to the New Covenant was re-instated such as ceremonial cleansing by baptism and/or holy water, the idea of keeping one day in seven as a sabbath, tithing, a priesthood which was separate from the "common folk" etc. Things from paganism such as worship of a mother and child, lent, Easter, Christ mass, etc came in. The Reformers changed some of that but a lot has been carried on and remains among Pentecostals.

The old Roman Catholic "control" of being in the one true church or being lost is very much alive in some of our churches. The idea that you can't be saved without submitting to your pastor/priest is a carry over. The idea that "holy tradition" (standards, the UPC Manual) are equal to and as important as the written Word (Bible) is very evident in some Pentecostal churches.

Re: Church Structure
 

I do not want to exaggerate how many times I have heard how God gave Moses complete personal perogative to set the boundaries around the Holy Mountain. I think it was always by the mouth of a visiting speaker pointing back to the fella behind him on the platform.

What is so FASCINATING about that OT scriptural setting, is that the boundary was a constraint that was only to exist for the time (2 days) of purification and preparation --for the third day.

At the completion of this special season of preparation, the ENTIRE CONGREGATION would be visited by the LORD coming down from the mount (Sinai) and be with the entire congregation.

But the PEOPLE got freaked when thunders and lightnings and God spoke as an exceedingly loud trumpet....so they said....NO THANKS...we prefer having a go-between, a surrogate that God talks to and then HE talks to us.

There still seems to be many folks who embrace that approach and a lot of guys that are willing to support that request.

Any purposed rebuilding of a middle wall of separation, would require the teacher/advocate to deny that access has been provided, that the vail has been rent; the flesh of the righteous lamb, our saviour Jesus.

Re: Church Structure
 

The use of a central meeting place goes back to the most primitive human cultures. It's probably just ingrained in us, and there are many advatages. One family isn't put having to always prepare and host a large gathering.

Also, there are few homes that could comfortably hold hundreds or even thousands of people. The stresses on parking in most neighborhoods would prohibit even a portion of those numbers from meeting in a home.

Yes, some means of voluntary participation is required for any group. But you have to be flexible. What happens when unexpected expenses are incurred? A furnace going out in the midst of winter or a large medical bill would cause most families to have to change their spending and giving on the fly. It's wrong to then have your pastor standing there with his hand out demanding an additional 20% interest on your "late tithe payment."
Moses made the bounds around the mount. The mount was the object that was "off limits." That's pretty plain. Anyone who wants to expand the "boundaries" beyond "the mount" and uses "God didn't say 'no'" as an excuse has ulterior motives that you need to watch out for.

Some may want to jump on me for this - I dare you! But when you add to God's word you imperil your soul to the curses listed in the Book. You are NOT God. Get over it. Set the boundaries that God has instructed and stop adding to His Word. Again, Build a Bridge And Get Over Yourself. YOU ARE NOT GOD. (Not directed toward you, The Lemon, but those that lurk).
That's nonsense. I grew up in sheep ranching country and no one ever broke legs or killed sheep as described to you. I was there. I saw the herds. I sat and watched them come and go ON THEIR OWN - crossing roads and stopping traffic without a human "shepherd" anywhere in sight.

The sheep knew where they had to be before night fall and that was it.
I appreciate your input. Sometime I might take a camera out and film the flocks and herds coming and going on their own just to prove the point. All of the "tender but tough love" scenarios I've heard from some pulpits doesn't even amount to one of the good sheep dips that I witnessed as a kid.

Re: Church Structure
 

Pel,
Are you advocating that God has instituted under-shepherds to help out the Good Shepherd who gave his life for the sheep?

Pel,
Do you believe there is a man (other than the only begotten Son of God) that sit in Moses seat to administer the assembly of the Saints?

Re: Church Structure
 

Get a cup of 'Joe, friend and re-read my post. NO! http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif

Unless of course in question #1 we intend the "help" to be that of good Christian guidance and instruction. Then, I'm all for that. But no amount of "under-shepherd's" sweat, toil and "tough love" could ever even come close to the Good Shpherd who gave His life for the sheep.

And no one "sits in Moses' seat" except the One Who fulfilled the Law that Moses delivered.

Re: Church Structure
 

thanks for the reply.
Any time I get counsel involving coffee I am more than willing to comply.

I just want to keep the 'scorecard' as up-to-date and clear as possible involving how folks fill Moses' seat.

Re: Church Structure
 

Just a note of extra clarification - nothing really new from what has already been posted.

The boundary set by Moses was to keep the people away from God until He was ready, otherwise they would surly die. Only Moses and the invited (e.g. the elders) were allowed access on the mountain and only Moses was allowed to continue on to the top. But, as has been pointed out, the boundary separating God's people from "the mountain" has been removed. No one is permitted to reconstruct it!

No pastor (or other minister) sits on the throne of Moses, except in their own opinion. That kind of teaching is, I regret to say, self-serving and a spiritually dangerous misuse of scripture in an attempt to further an individual's personal agenda.

Again, these remarks are just an affirmation of what has already been posted.

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Words of wisdom....

Re: Church Structure
 

I think the bible does not give us a license to spiritualize stories that don't have an explicitly stated principle already in the bible. In other words the Pastor is not Moses. He does not have a right to kill anyone.

As for a central church building. They had those in the bible, but it was someone's house. The church in that area held services in someone's house.

Later as the church grew and was no longer persecuted, it became easier to set up places of worship like the Jews had and *gulp* the pagans.

In the beginning this was not possible since the church was poor and persecuted

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Isn't it something that God's plan for Israel was the Tabernacle, which, the way I see it, was just the place for sacrifice. Each Israelite father was instructed to lead his family in personal devotions on a daily basis. (Due 6)

The tabernacle was a very mobile and transient structure that, instead of the Israelites going to it, it went with them. Kind of like the Holy Ghost.

It was not until the Israelites wanted to be like the nations around them, and king and etc, that they began to desire a temple. God's plan was the Tabernacle. Man's plan was the temple.

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Kind of like Gods plan is the home church/meeting and mans plan is the church building?
He clearly blesses both but it is rather obvious what He would prefer.....

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The pastor=Moses doctrine is dangerous, ridiculous, and borders on the heretical. There is ONE modern day Moses, and His name is Jesus.

The allegorical method of interpretation of Scripture (while having a long venerable history) is always a shaky thing and has been the root of many false doctrines for centuries. There is a place for it, but only within the boundaries Scripture sets for itself.

IMHOP: Tithing is not explicitly taught in the NT, but serves the good and practical purpose of keeping the local church financially afloat and is a good way to express our worship to the Lord, exercise personal financial responsibility, and bring our flesh under control. But, alas, it is not often taught that way............

BTW, if anyone doesn't feel their local church is worth supporting financially, why attend that church?