Differences of the two at the merger?
 

I did not know until I read these threads that the PCI and the Apostolic Assemblies held different beliefs at, during and since the merger in 1945. Although many posts have referred to these differences I have not seen what the differences were. Could you please list the differences and which side held those beliefs, what churches did each side evolve from, names from each organization and what part of the country did they dominate?

I just need a little history lesson on the differences. Thanks.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Oh, they're huge. I don't remember what they are, but they're huge. ;)

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

I too would like to know this information. As a matter of fact I was discussing this very information last Saturday with another poster.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

I don't know I got to an apostolic church but our sunday school materials are UPC out of hazelwood mo..so go figure

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

To sum it up on what I think is the most important point...

The PCI view accepts all those who have sincerely turned to Jesus Christ in faith as being at least potentially a part of the Body of Christ. In other words, those millions of Christians that you meet every day just might be your brother and sister in Christ and should be treated accordingly.

The PAJC view is more exclusivistic and demands that the complete "3 step" process of repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the infilling of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues, be completed.

The practical difference is that the PCI view does not purport to hold itself up as judge and arbiter over the salvation of mankind. Also, the "3 step" view has led to a number of errors. Here's just 3 of them:

1) The belief that an "Acts 2:38 church" has always existed throughout church history. Several fraudulant and even ridiculous books and "reports" have been published over the years. Many in the "3 step" camp seem to require this fantastic manipulation of the truth in order to line themselves up with their expectations on Matthew 16:18.

2) The belief that careful "obedience" to a script supercedes the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

3) The belief that since we've got the baptismal formula correct, every other thought or whimsy is equally the "voice of God" and to be obeyed for fear of losing one's salvation.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Pretty good way of viewing it Pel..

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Most, or many, independent Apostolic churches came out of the UPCI. Most of them quit over holiness, not new birth doctrines. Thus they can use the SS material.

Most of the differences between the two organizations was in the way they viewed salvation, whether a person needed to just recieve the Spirit, whether or not baptism was essential, the need of tongues and so forth.

There are some good books out there on this subject by some of the origional men.

Just to think of a few:

Winds of God,
Both books on the Urshan brothers,
Coal miner preacher

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Just so I understand Pel,

Do you not believe that the church has existed throught the centuries?

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

We can't forget Thomas Fudge's book, "Christianity Without the Cross"! That book created an epiphany for me! :)

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Fudge did have some good data, I just disagree with the conclusion he came to.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

It is the most academic expose' of the history of the UPCI to date. I got a little squirmy at some of his conclusions, but the documented history of the merger was spot on!

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

And the PCI strongly emphasized repentance and baptism in Jesus name and the necessity of receiving the baptism of the Spirit with tongues post conversion (like the AOG does or did)

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Doesn't that "bias" him though? A true historian should present the facts and let us draw the conclusions

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

dude, try to be a bit more bias. good grief.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Agreed!:thumbsup

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

No more biased than those history books "approved" by the UPCI. Fudge a least made an attempt to be even handed and academic in his approach.

For those interested, here is a link to why Thomas Fudge wrote the book. (in his own words)

Why I Wrote the Book, "Christianity Without the Cross"

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

oddly enough nowhere in there does fudge inform the reader that he is the son of a UPCI minister who is now an Anglican.

anyone besides myself see that as a bit of a red flag?

(I have read most of the book in question.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Also, be careful of the answers because most of the answers will come from folks with some dog in this hunt. Most will give you their bias view.

I would be no exception to that rule, but I will try to be as unbiased as possible.

To begin with, by and large the Pan-Pentecostal movement came out of Methodism. The Holiness movement of the 1800’s was driven by the Methodist church and it was from those roots that the Pentecostal outpouring sprang. That is not to say that it was only Methodist (holiness) people alone at the beginning, but it was the dominant doctrinal tradition.

From that, Pentecostals who were by and large Trinitarian formed the Assemblies of God. During these early days some AOG preachers began to teach Oneness doctrine and at some point around 1919 (If memory serves) the AOG as an organization, took a stand for the Trinitarian doctrine. This led to a split between those who were committed to the Oneness doctrine and those who were Trinitarians.

Those that were Oneness further broke down into several different groups or organizations, race being a component (Pentecostal Assemblies of the World PAW being the largest black organization) and then there were quite a few white groups. The Pentecostal Church International (PCI) and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ (PAJC) were two of the largest such groups.

These two groups made several attempts at unifying into a single organization. But there were some differences. Both were still holiness in message. Both preached Acts 2:38 as the proper response to the Gospel. But within the PCI there were a number of men (the actual percentage is not known) who believed that one was saved at repentance and that Baptism and Holy Ghost infilling were events that the saved person did/experienced.

The PAJC was made up mostly of men who believed the Water/Spirit doctrine. That is to say that one must be born of Water (baptism) and Spirit (Holy Ghost Baptism) to be saved.

What is not known is exactly what percentage of the PCI believed in Saved at repentance. I know for certain that A. T. Morgan and George Glass Sr. both believed in the Water/Spirit Doctrine and both of them were members of the PCI organization at the merger. A. T. Morgan became a General Superintendant of the UPCI. On the other hand Howard Goss, CH Yadon, and A. D. Gurley believed one was saved at repentance at least one of these men was a General Superintendant of the UPCI and I think at least 2 GS of the UPCI believe in saved at repentance.

What all the older men agree on is that all of them fervently preached Acts 2:38 One God message.

While that was not the only difference that had to be ironed out for the merger to happen in 1945, it was the biggest doctrinal issue. It was that issue that led to language in the merger documents that stated in essence that these men would strive for unity of the brethren until they came into unity of the faith.

There were other minor issues like organizational structure and who would hold what offices and church structure among other things but this was the one serious doctrinal issue.

At the end of the day, those men thought that it was not too large a difference to prevent them from working together.

Over time, the Water/Spirit doctrine became dominant, it is my belief that this was because the majority of the men in both the PCI and PAJC already believed the Water/Spirit doctrine before the merger.

As a side note, I firmly believe the Water/Spirit doctrine, so if I have shown any bias, you know where I am coming from. Hopefully this answers your questions. If I have made any factual mistakes here, it is the result of having recounted this from memory and not taking the time to be sure of certain facts (like the 1919 date and such). But this is in essence the information I believe you are looking for.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Yes, I do believe that. But to be fair to those who don't agree with me on other points I need to say that I believe "the Church" to be those described in Hebrews 12:22-29. "Whose names are written in heaven..."

To be included in this number we must be "His workmanship..." You are not saved by what you have done, you are saved because of what He has done. See Ephesians 2. We are "made nigh by the blood..." His blood. We are NOT saved "of ourselves..." it is "the gift of God: Not of works..."

We are not saved because we have figured out a secret or because some mystery was revealed to our grandparents. We are saved because "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)."

I can find no evidence of the supposed continual line of "Acts 2:38 believers" from the apostolic age through to the 21st century. And, those who have tried to offer such "evidence" embarassed all of us with their sloppy and often deceitful work.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Pel.. I do believe you have gods spirit all over you right now..

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Wow bro. you finally said something I can compeltely agree with today!

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

I was left with the impression that he pulled his "punches." He describes the chief "antagonist" or the "bad guy" from the perspective of his storyline (LE Westberg) in terms that are almost flattering and certainly respectful.

He didn't really offer a conclusion of "who was right." He just offered a narrative on one side of a debate that he thought had been neglected. And did so in a way that didn't really antagonize the other side. (Just my perspective http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif).

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

To be clear, you probabaly want to reword that. Did you mean "the necessity of receiving the baptism of the Spirit with tongues post conversion" (like the AOG)..."? And the "baptism in Jesus name" in a different clause or sentence?

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

If we yak enuf were bound to line up from time to time, even by accident. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

yes, but I guess I mistakenly assumed the intellect level of the general board would understand that................ :ursofunny

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Originally posted by Ferd:

To begin with, by and large the Pan-Pentecostal movement came out of Methodism. The Holiness movement of the 1800’s was driven by the Methodist church and it was from those roots that the Pentecostal outpouring sprang. That is not to say that it was only Methodist (holiness) people alone at the beginning, but it was the dominant doctrinal tradition.

The first of our family of five generations of apostolic oneness Pentecostals, came from
the Methodist. My late father said when he was a small child he saw his mother (Lizzie),
my paternal grandmother, shout her long hair down and hair pins went everywhere. Of
course, she didn't have the Holy Ghost, to lead and guide her at that time and when
the "bob" came in, after the soldier boys (her oldest brother one of them) came back
from WWI, she had her long hair bobbed, put on a chemise and did the "Charleston. That
is what Dad said. He was just a little boy and his mother also painted her lips bright red
and it effected Dad as a lad, so much, he crawled under the house where they stored
the potatoes, onions, etc., and cried. Mother didn't look like mother and it upset him.

In 1926, as she lay dying of typhoid fever, she breathed a simple mother's prayer,
"Lord, if You would see fit, let me live to raise my three children. Dad was 8, little bro-
ther was 5 and baby sister was 2 1/2 yrs. Grandma lasped into a coma and awoke the
next afternoon, hungry and thirsty. She would live to see my first grandson, who is 25
yrs. old. She lived until Oct. 1984. It might be interesting what a lot of people might
do IF they thought they were dying!

After God healed Grandma, she continued to pray and read her Bible diligently as she
had previously done as a devout Methodist. God sent a white-haired old preacher man
their way and in 1933-34, she and her young son, my late father, obey the truth as the
old preacher had preached it from the Word of God.

Grandma never "bobbed" cut or trimmed her hair after she received the Holy Ghost.
There is/are girls/ladies in every generation since, that have also followed this pattern.
There is more to this thing than many know. God chose the foolish things of this world
to confound the wise. God's ways are not our ways. They are SO much higher.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Sister Falla, thank you for that post. My Great Grandmother was an old time Shouting Methodist, long before the out pouring of the Holy Ghost or the Pentecostal movement also.

My granfather who was a life long baptist recounted following her into the woods to her prayer spot where she would pray and shout and in his words "talk funny"

She died before any pentecostals came to that community. She was an old time Holiness Shouting Methodist that has roots deep in the 19th century.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

This board? (Hey! Just kidding guys! Guys?)

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Bro. Ferd,

God, by His Spirit, led His people long before the merger, the outpouring,
etc.
He lead His people out of the wilderness of Sin and continues to lead them
just as of old. In the beginning, GOD!!!!

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

ok,.....to sum it up, the PCI had those who believed you were saved at repentance and some who believed in the three step method of salvation....the PAJC believed in the three step method of salvation,....both came out of the AOG.....both preached holiness....

.....am I to conclude that the PCI was a little more liberal then the PAJC???....who were the main players of both groups at the time of the merger and what churches decendended from their roots?....were they prominent in different areas of the country?....and why is the western district of the UPCI so conservative?.....

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Amen. The funny part of the story is that Granny Miller would come back from the woods and live as cleanly and holy and Godly as any saint, but with time she would slip a bit and pick back up her snuff box and start with a poor attitude.

then she would go back to that old stump where she prayed and when she came back she was a saintly as you please!

There were few people around in those days and even fewer churches. once in a while an itenerate preacher would wonder thru the woods and find my folks and preach to them.

granny didnt have many folks that believed because there just werent very many folk that lived around there.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...t=15547&page=2

Bro. Ferd,

Back then, my family had never heard of the organization, merger, etc.
God led them out of Methodism into more of His wonderful Light. God led
them out of the wilderness and into the Light of the Glorious Gospel of our
Lord Jesus Christ. He has always led His children in the way HE would have
them go.
My Grandma Lizzie had a place wallowed out down in the persimmon grove.
The place where she went to meet her Lord in prayer.
I posted a link from a thread I posted (ABOVE), more about Grandma after she was
baptized in Jesus Name and received the Holy Ghost.

Falla39

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Ahem! I will school you on these matters of consderable import and debate...

And you (sort of) summed it up okay. There's a PCI manual posted on here somewhere where even the word "trinity" is used to describe the one God.

"Prominent areas" for the PCI way were the Pacific Northwest, Midwest and especially Tennessee. When I was younger they used to warn us about "Tennessee." All of this is just generally speaking, of course. The truth was much more complex.

California in the post war years beckoned as a land of opportunity to many people including Oneness Pentecostals. Many people thought "whoever controls California will control the nation..." The huge growth rates certainly spoke for themselves.

The Haney clan was of course well established in the Stockton, CA. long before the war. They were of the "PCI" persuasion. Stockton was (and maybe still is) the largest inland port in the world. This was the primary outlet for all of the produce of the rich California Central Valley.

With the merger of the PCI and PAJC in 1945, a program was immediately implemented by the "conservatives" within the PAJC to undermine the spirit of the Fundamental Doctrine and the merger itself. One of the first salvos was fired when Ike Terry moved to the Sacramento area and began to establish a new work there. Years later, Borther Terry would boast that he was "the first to preach Acts 2:38 in the Valley..." as a direct attack against the Haney's and their perceived "soft on doctrine" habits.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

I was personally forbidden to attend Christian Life College in Stockton after meeting with Kenneth Haney and Dan Rigdon, because "that Kenneth Haney has a real problem with compromise out there..." This was back in the early 1980's. It always puzzled me; if I posted the nickname Brother Terry was known by, I'd be banned here from AFF. But he was always the one who known for "holiness" and everyone else was known for "compromise.

There were a large number of other transplants over the years. They eventually wrested control of the old Western District from the "compromisers." They were not particularly interested in promoting the UPC as a whole and would often go out of their way to try and drive good men from the fellowship.

Once, a pastor in the Bay Area with a growing church was presented with a land deal that was incredibly generous. The only sticking point was that he had to put over $20,000 down immediately or lose the deal. You know how land is in the Bay Area. He was forced to jump on the deal weeks before the District Board could meet. When they finally did meet, they presented him with this offer: Give up the $20,000 deposit or turn in your card.

Nice guys. They really thought they had gotten rid of another "compromiser." He was called this despite the fact that he preached and practiced all of the traditional "holiness" customs. His wife was an especially popular singer in the UPC. They were welcomed everywhere in the fellowship, but they were not "clean" enough in the old Western District because they didn't play ball with the "conservatives."

The man kept his card and walked away from over $20,000. It was one of the classiest things I had ever seen, and one of the most Christian.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

While I wouldnt paint all the PAJC fellows with that broad brush that pel has done, (and I come from a PCI background church), I will say that California is one very wierd place where the politics has often been a blood bath and good men have been cut to shreds out there.

i would go a step further though and suggest that it wasnt just PCI/PAJC belief at the heart of all of it. a big chunk of the Callifornia stuff is just personal dislike. its really kind of sick.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

It is my understanding that they did NOT both preach holiness. Some of the earliest photos of the Gen Sup show his wife with short hair and a string of pearls. Others have also been around showing women in pants and lipstick...

Wasn't it posted here along with a quote just a few days ago?

Or rather "holiness" as defined by the OP was not nearly as "emphasized" as it is today in some circles. In certain areas it is considered a matter of salvation but not in other areas....

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

I would argue a point here... they did preach "holiness." It's just they had a standard that was different from what some of the self proclaimed Holiness preachers had.

My great-great grandfather was a Holiness preacher from a long line of Holiness preachers. He would have been bewildered by some people's idea of "holiness" today:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/...e64ef79473.jpg

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

...what stock did the following come from:....Urshans, Goss, Yarden, Chambers, AT Morgan, Price, Tenneys.....and so forth....BTW I find this discussion very interesting as I have never heard it discussed before in such detail.....thanks

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Thank you.

Re: Differences of the two at the merger?
 

Urshans - Nathaniel Sr. PAJC Youth Leader
Howard Goss - Founder of PCI (along with John Dearing).
Yadon (?) PCI
Stanley Chambers - General Sec. of PCI
AT Morgan - PCI
(Paul) Price (PAJC - at least that's what I remembered he said once, I have no documentation right now - away from Library).
Tenneys - PAJC