Angels and their ability to sin
 

I have been taught all my life that the Angels are basically robots with no free will and were created to worship GOD with no ability to sin. However, we do have the example of Lucifer and the 1/3 of the Angels CHOOSING to rebel against GOD and thus being thrown out of Heaven. So does that mean angels have free will also?

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Angels dont have forgiveness extended to them as we do so they can choose to sin but then they cant come back to the father.Angels have higher knowledge than we do and we got tricked in the garden of Eden.I think the angels would have known what they were doing when they rebelled.Now I could be wrong. So take this with a grain of salt.LOL!!

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

I don't think anyone really knows.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

The bottom line question - (re-phrased) - Do you believe angels have free will or not? and why?

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

OK, I'm not sure but they must have some free will because some of them rebelled against God.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

It is inconclusive to say 1/3 of the angels fell. We read in Rev 12 that 1/3 of the stars were thrown down by the dragon's tail, but we are not told WHEN that occurred, neither are we told they are heavenly angels. Just stars. Stars in Rev 1 were angels of the churches.

But we do read that angels lost their first estate. That can only mean they have free will. We do not know WHEN they fell or WHY. Jude only mentioned they did. And that implies lack of faithfulness.

Jude 1:6 KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Tradition alone says 1/3 of the stars falling means heavenly angels. It is only conjecture.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Who are those angels in chains?

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Jude 1:6 has always been a question in my mind...

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Is it possible that the Angels reffered to in Jude 1:6 are the same as Referred to in Genesis 6?

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

I see no angels mentioned in Gen 6.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

I believe they are demon spirits in bondage and unable to ever be redeemed or saved. Doomed for the lake of fire without release of any kind ever.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

a warning to you ladies,

if you trim your hair,

you are not only damning your soul,

and forfeiting your salvation,

but, even worse,

you are tempting more angels to sin



at least that's how some teach about the 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

so... who are the "sons of God"

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Some believe the "sons of God" were angels who had sex with women and produced a race/species of beings who were half human and half angel. Some times this is linked with the "serpent seed" doctrine that all around us are people who came from sexual union of satan and eve and these people are the "seed" of the serpent/satan.

Others believe the sons of God are those who are first mentioned in Genesis 4:26 as those who "called upon the name of YHWH" or those who "called themselves by the name of YHWH." In other words, those who believed that YHWH was the true God and who worshipped Him. This lineage goes on in Genesis chapter 5 through Seth, Enos and down to Noah at the end of chapter 5. Then in chapter 6 there was a breakdown in the separation of God's children as they intermarried with those who worshiped other gods. So the "sons of God" were those from the God fearing group and the "daughters of men" were those from the group who had turned from YHWH to other gods. (ref 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; 7:1)

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Can angels ride motorcycles? ;)

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

I believe the context reveals it:

First, Cain was banished from God's people.

Genesis 4:16 KJV And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Seth replaced Abel, the slain brother.

Genesis 4:25 KJV And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Adam and Eve had many more sons and daughters, none of which were banished as Cain was.

Genesis 5:4 KJV And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

And people spread and multiplied.

Note the words at the start of Gen 6.

Genesis 6:1-2 KJV And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, (2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

After having separated from the rest of the family, Cain was outside the presence of the Lord. Being away from God's presence by being cast out implies the rest of the family remained in the presence of the Lord. So those in God's presence would be the SONS OF GOD. And those outside were categorized as simply men. And as time passed, and Gen 6 explicitly stated that men multiplied on the face of the earth, it only stands to reason that the two separated groups would converge and meet.

The people of God included men who were called "sons of God". The people of Cain included "daughters of men". The bible already showed a godly man following after an ungodly woman when Adam disobeyed God by following Eve's sin in eating forbidden fruit. This theme carries onward with Ahab following wicked Jezebel, and even with Abram choosing the way of the flesh in following Sarai's advice to take Hagar to beget a child. We even see this as follows:

Numbers 25:1-3 KJV And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. (2) And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. (3) And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.

Similarly, the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 were Adam's family who remained with God's presence who desired the female descendants of Cain, called the "daughters of men", not daughters of God.

This unholy union of believers in God and sinful women once again caused trouble.

There is nothing sensational about it, as though angels procreated with human females, for the Lord said this is impossible.

Matthew 22:30 KJV For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I agree with what Sam said:

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Where did those "other people" come from? Did God initially create more than just Adam and Eve? Apparently those "other people" were not Adam and Eve's children.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

They would have been descended from Adam and Eve and their children.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Sure they were Adam and Eve's descendants. :) By the time Gen 6 rolled around Adam and Eve and their children and their children's children would have multiplied greatly.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

This is the part that's puzzling to me:


Genesis 4
Cain and Abel
1Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten[a] a man with the help of the LORD." 2And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. 3In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of(A) the fruit of the ground, 4and Abel also brought of(B) the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD(C) had regard for Abel and his offering, 5but(D) for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7(E) If you do well, will you not be accepted?[b] And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door.(F) Its desire is for[c] you, but you must rule over it."

8Cain spoke to Abel his brother.[d] And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and(G) killed him. 9Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said,(H) "I do not know; am I my brother’s keeper?" 10And the LORD said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood(I) is crying to me from the ground. 11And now(J) you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth." 13Cain said to the LORD, "My(K) punishment is greater than I can bear.[e] 14Behold,(L) you have driven me today away from the ground, and(M) from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth,(N) and whoever finds me will kill me." 15Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him(O) sevenfold." And the LORD(P) put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. 16Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.


It just says that Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel.... no mention of other offspring at that point, and yet when Cain gets sent out "into the world", it's full of people who will want to kill him.

Why does it only mention Cain and Abel, and yet the earth is full of people?

Later it mentions that they had Seth.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

By the time Cain killed his brother, they were both grown. We don't know how many children (and maybe grandchildren) Adam and Eve had by that time.

Ordinarily geneology lists show only prominent men who are heads of families or clans. With the death of Abel, he was replaced in the geneological line by Seth. We don't know how many brothers and sisters may have been born, married, and produced children in between them.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Genesis 6:4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Can anyone explain how children of Cain's daughters and of the righteous offspring of Adam and Eve produced these giants?

I have heard that this biblical account has been passed down, like the flood, and in many heathen groups, there are always tales of "the gods" coming down and having children with earthly women and producing Herculean-type offspring.

Also, this would not necessarily lead to serpent-seed doctrine, as I know preachers who preach this and do not believe in ss. One preacher who I know that preaches this, simply says that Genesis 6:4 (which he believes lines up with the passage in Jude) is an interesting tidbit, but it is not worth going crazy over, and it could be preached in a few sermons about things like obedience or sexual purity, but that it is not something that has a ton of practical application for us.

I have also been taught, that when we interpret the Scriptures, that we must remember that the book is about man, and not about angels, animals or the land or any other thing like that, although angels are mentioned, along with land and animals, their mention is brief.

-Bro. Alex

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

These "giants" or "mighty men which were of old, men of renown" which existed "in those days" and also "after that" (when the sons of God and daughters of men mingled), were they physical giants or does that refer to some other type of greatness?

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Maybe they're the 3000-cubit tall giants that Enoch talks about? (One translation, or maybe speculation, has them at 300 cubits, and maybe even 30. Still, that'd be, what, 45 feet?)

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

The text does not say the children of these relationships were giants. It only says Giants were there, then.

Genesis 6:4 KJV There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

It simply says giants were in earth back then, and then it adds that the sons of God beget men of renown. Two different groups. Group A and then Group B. It says giants were there then, as well as after the sons of God beget children with daughters of men. It says the giants were there before the sons of God beget men of renown.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

To the original post:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; NIV

So yes, angels can sin.

As far as who Cain married I've always thought there had to be other people on Earth during that time. I don't think he married a sister or cousin or other descendant of Adam.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Then not everyone alive today is necessarily a descendant of Adam and Eve?

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

If you believe in one of many Gap theories or possibly serpent seed doctrine you would say yes.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Correct. I can't find any place where the Bible says that everyone is a descendant of Adam and Eve. The Old Testament is concerned with the Jewish race and their ancestors. It wouldn't make sense for them to chronicle ancient Gentile persons.

LUKE2447: My wife says I believe in Gap theory though I had never even heard of that term until she mentioned it.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

Interesting. Haven't thought of it that way before.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

It does say that Eve is the mother of all living.

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Adam is called the FIRST MAN.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

I heard the theory of angels and women getting together from different groups; however, I don't buy into that. If you look closely at the beginning with the creation of 'man', you will see that there were two groups of people: the male and female created in the first chapter of Genesis was not Adam and Eve.

Now that shed a whole new light on the whole creation.......

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

The mother of all living what? All living trees? All living birds? She couldn't possibly be the mother of all living things. To say she's the mother of all living Jews makes sense though.

Where is that found at?

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

1 Cor 15.

Not only that, but Adam is considered the reason we are born in sin. If there were people aside from Adam, or before him, in the earth, there would be people not born in sin. Our opinion of whether Adam was first or not affects everything else, especially regarding sin and need for salvation.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

But I Corinthians 15 is not about the creation. That chapter is about salvation through the resurrection of Christ. Can you tell me specifically what verse you are referring to?

It seems to me that if your position were really the case it would be mentioned somewhere in Genesis, along with the account of the rest of creation.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

First of all, since Genesis mentions God creating Heaven and earth in the context leading up to Man's creation, and the same words describing Adam's creation in chapter 2 are noted in chapter 1 in that context, context shows Adam is the first man in Genesis.

1 Cor 15:45 notes Adam as the first man. This is the head of the human race, as much as Jesus is the LAST Adam who is head of the new creation race.

Not only that, Adam is mentioned as being the reason we all shall die. We were IN ADAM as sinners. how did we get into Adam? We were born in his family. If Adam was not the first man, what about the people not derived from Adam. And, as I noted, sin is attributed to Adam in 1 Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This means those not born of Adam, from some hypothetical other people, would not be in need of salvation.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

This would be laughable if it wasn't so sad that there are some who believe it

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

If Adam was not the first man, it would be error to say that IN Adam shall all die. In Christ shall all be made alive, means that everyone who comes into Christ will be saved, requiring the same exhaustive language to be understood when reading how that "in Adam" causes all to die.

If Adam was not the first of all humanity, requiring all to be saved due to his sin, then Christ is not the answer for all humanity.

Re: Angels and their ability to sin
 

I don't think it's tradition. There seems to be biblical evidence the stars are angels, as you mentioned

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Dan 8:10 It grew so big it reached the army of heaven, and it brought about the fall of some of the army and some of the stars to the ground, where it trampled them.

Army....the Host of heaven.

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Host
tsaw-baw', tseb-aw-aw'
From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).

Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Morning stars.

Now consider the context though

Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
Rev 12:8 but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.