Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744071)

Is it agreed that the posts can be up to 700 words. Does Bible verses and quotes count in the 700?

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 744523)

I would suggest scriptures DO count and the reason for that is if they do not count you can post a dozen scriptures and insist the other person respond to each one...and of course due to the word count they can't.

What makes better sense is to limit the scriptures to the most important ones, reference scriptures but not post the entire scripture,

That or not expect the other to address every verse but be specific about a verse you want them to address

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 744524)

But quoting the other person does not count.

Remember you don't need to cover everything in one post.

A good way to proceed is one person takes the pro side...he argues His position and the other argues against. Then at the end we reverse that

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744526)

That works for me. I don't have prewritten material. So that will not effect me. I can reference the scripture and only quote the important ones. I will go first and allow Brother Jason to have the last word. If that is okay with him. I will began my preparing my opening statements.

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 745070)

Hold on. We need a format
Below are the two general ones. There is always room for modifications, but the point is that there is a definite beginning and a definite ending.

The following rule sets will be used. I am opting for the first one. If you two agree then we can move on. If not then we need to modify which rule set and agree.

[LIST=1][*]FIRST - Limited to 200 , 300 , 400 , 500 or more words per post.[LIST=1][*]Topic must be posted and agreed upon along with debate room reserved.[*]Opening

1. Debater 1 makes opening statement
2. Debater 2 responds
3. Response from Debater 1
4. Response from Debater 2
5. Response from Debater 1
6. Response from Debater 2

[*]Cross Examination - Part 1

1. Debater 2 asks 1st question
2. Debater 1 responds
3. Debater 2 asks 2nd question
4. Debater 1 responds

[*]Cross Examination - Part 2

1. Debater 1 asks 1st question
2. Debater 2 responds
3. Debater 1 asks 2nd question
4. Debater 2 responds

[*]Concluding remarks from both sides.

1. Debater 2 makes closing statement
2. Debater 1 makes closing statement

You agreed on 700 words. Put all quotes by the other in quote tags. I will count words to make sure each party is complying. IF it goes over it will need to be edited before the other person can respond. Personally I like the first one. Concluding remarks will have no word count limit, but be no more than a single post

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 745072)

Also make sure your posts are clear, separated into specific points and your main points are clearly evident. IF there is a specific point you want to make it should not be buried in a paragraph somewhere. In fact it might be best to start with the point you are making then your evidence. Separate points in a outline form perhaps using a numbering or alphabet system. So if in your post you made three main arguments they would be 1,2&3 and that way we can all see if the other person addresses each point.

Also when you are making a counter reply to the other person's post you MUST quote them. Ok? What we don't want is someone making an opening post and the other person ignoring it and just posting their own polemic without addressing the points of the other person.

That is how this works, this is not making a speech. It is debate. So the second person WILL BE attempting to refute the points of the other.

If after all that you want to reverse roles we can start another debate where Jason makes the affirmative and defends afp will be countering his points

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745133)

This is fine with me, the only thing I would request changed is to reverse the closing statements. If Debater 1 opens the debate, I feel like Debater 2 should get the last word.



Okay. Do we need to start over, or do I need to respond?

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745180)

The first one is fine with me also. I can edit my opening remarks to show my points if that is needed.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744874)

The references to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ left in the context of scripture with the authors original intent in mind demands a 1st Century Coming, specifically within the generation of Jesus Christ. To determine when the Coming was/will be, let's define what a Coming is, biblically. Pay careful attention to text, context, and intent of the author.

Isa 13:1, 4, 10-11, 19-20
(1) The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

(4) The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

(10) For the stars of heaven... constellations...shall not give their light: the sun shall be ...darkened ... the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
(11) And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

(19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
(20) It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.


This is a prophecy against Babylon. Context shows the Coming of the Lord in judgment on Babylon. Intent of the author, to foretell the overthrow of Babylon. This is a biblical Coming of the Lord. Babylon did experience the presence of our Lord.

Notice some ingredients of this Coming:

The Lord gathered the kingdoms of nations together for his Coming.
The sun, moon, and stars stopped shinning.
The world was punished for evil.
Babylon would no longer be inhabited.

This is the way that all the Comings of the Lord have been:

Examples, Isaiah 34:1-17; Eze. 32:1-10.

This is vitally important in understanding New Testament references of the Coming of the Lord. Jesus, speaking of His Coming, used the exact or similar language when speaking to his followers about His Coming. How one can change meanings of prophetic language used in both Testaments to say that they have different meanings, when text, context, and authors intent are the same is beyond me. This is exactly what I expect Jason to do. Readers, your responsibility is to not allow this.

Jesus' Coming is understood by his previous Comings in the Old Testament.

Luk 21:23-24
(23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:20
(20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Mat 24:29
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Luk 17:29-30
(29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Rev 18:21-24
(21) ...Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
(22) ...voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters,...no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be...the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee...
(23) ...the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee...voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee...
(24) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This Coming was in judgment.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744874)

The references to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ left in the context of scripture with the authors original intent in mind demands a 1st Century Coming, specifically within the generation of Jesus Christ. To determine when the Coming was/will be, let's define what a Coming is, biblically. Pay careful attention to text, context, and intent of the author.

Isa 13:1, 4, 10-11, 19-20
(1) The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

(4) The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

(10) For the stars of heaven... constellations...shall not give their light: the sun shall be ...darkened ... the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
(11) And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

(19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
(20) It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.


This is a prophecy against Babylon. Context shows the Coming of the Lord in judgment on Babylon. Intent of the author, to foretell the overthrow of Babylon. This is a biblical Coming of the Lord. Babylon did experience the presence of our Lord.

Notice some ingredients of this Coming:

The Lord gathered the kingdoms of nations together for his Coming.
The sun, moon, and stars stopped shinning.
The world was punished for evil.
Babylon would no longer be inhabited.

This is the way that all the Comings of the Lord have been:

Examples, Isaiah 34:1-17; Eze. 32:1-10.

This is vitally important in understanding New Testament references of the Coming of the Lord. Jesus, speaking of His Coming, used the exact or similar language when speaking to his followers about His Coming. How one can change meanings of prophetic language used in both Testaments to say that they have different meanings, when text, context, and authors intent are the same is beyond me. This is exactly what I expect Jason to do. Readers, your responsibility is to not allow this.

Jesus' Coming is understood by his previous Comings in the Old Testament.

Luk 21:23-24
(23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:20
(20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Mat 24:29
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Luk 17:29-30
(29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Rev 18:21-24
(21) ...Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
(22) ...voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters,...no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be...the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee...
(23) ...the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee...voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee...
(24) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This Coming was in judgment.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745362)

Prax, I hand counted it and came up with 746. I thought I had stayed under 700 originally. I will edit it, but don't understand why the count is so far off. Does "1 Thessalonians 4:17" count as 1 word or 3 words?

The edit button is not showing up, can you make it where I am able to edit and cut it down.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744874)

The references to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ left in the context of scripture with the authors original intent in mind demands a 1st Century Coming, specifically within the generation of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744874)

To determine when the Coming was/will be, let's define what a Coming is, biblically. Pay careful attention to text, context, and intent of the author.

Isa 13:1, 4, 10-11, 19-20
(1) The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

(4) The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

(10) For the stars of heaven... constellations...shall not give their light: the sun shall be ...darkened ... the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
(11) And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

(19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
(20) It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

This is a prophecy against Babylon. Context shows the Coming of the Lord in judgment on Babylon. Intent of the author, to foretell the overthrow of Babylon. This is a biblical Coming of the Lord. Babylon did experience the presence of our Lord.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744874)

Notice some ingredients of this Coming:

The Lord gathered the kingdoms of nations together for his Coming.
The sun, moon, and stars stopped shinning.
The world was punished for evil.
Babylon would no longer be inhabited.

This is the way that all the Comings of the Lord have been:

Examples, Isaiah 34:1-17; Eze. 32:1-10.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744874)

This is vitally important in understanding New Testament references of the Coming of the Lord. Jesus, speaking of His Coming, used the exact or similar language when speaking to his followers about His Coming. How one can change meanings of prophetic language used in both Testaments to say that they have different meanings, when text, context, and authors intent are the same is beyond me. This is exactly what I expect Jason to do. Readers, your responsibility is to not allow this.

Jesus' Coming is understood by his previous Comings in the Old Testament.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 744874)

Luk 21:23-24
(23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:20
(20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Mat 24:29
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Luk 17:29-30
(29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Rev 18:21-24
(21) ...Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
(22) ...voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters,...no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be...the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee...
(23) ...the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee...voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee...
(24) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This Coming was in judgment.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

Opinion not fact.


This is the judgment of God-not "the second coming." God has judged many nations over the course of history. There is a difference between the judgment of God, and the unique event of the coming of the Lord. Neither this passage, nor the other passages you quote speak of the "second coming". They all reference God's judgement.



Again, these passages don't refer to "the second coming." That is a unique event in human history. These speak of God's judgment. As God judged those nations, so He judged Jerusalem, and He will eventually judge this world. Did the judgement of God fall on Jerusalem in 70AD-absolutely. Was that the "second coming?" Absoutely not-and these passages are not proving that Jesus already came back.



The Old Testament references are not "comings (plural) of the Lord". Full Preterism needs to redefine God's judgment as God's "coming" or their argument fails.


AD70 was God's judgment-not the second coming of Christ.
Secondly, Jerusalem is not being spoken of in Rev.18 In order for this to be one has to 1)change the dating of Revelation 2)put the blood of all prophets, SAINTS, and ALL that are slain on the earth. and 3)reconcile the fact that the prophecy says the city shall be "found no more at all" with the fact that Jerusalem exists as a major city in our world. This isn't the case with Sodom or Babylon. 4)several other reasons

With the few words I have remaining,I will affirm that the Bible speaks of the second coming of Christ as a visible, noticeable, unique event in human history.

First, several events happen when Christ comes back-among those is the rapture (ressurection) of both the living saints and the dead.
(because the word count-I will have to only post scripture references)
1Thessalonians 4:13-18
Matthew 24:29-31
1Corinthians 15:12-23,51-54
Revelation 11:15

Second, Jesus isn't coming back alone.
Jude 14
Revelation 19:11-14
Psalms 50:3-5
1Thessalonians 1:7


Third,the scripture distinguishes the first coming of Christ from the second:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Acts 1:9-11

Fourth, scripture uses the language of a phyiscal and visible coming.
Revelation 1:7
Zechariah 12:10
Zechariah 13:6
Revelation 6:15-17
Revelation 19:19-21
Matthew 24:30
Titus 2:13
Matthew 26:64
Luke 21:27-28
2 Timothy 4:1
Colossians 3:4

Fifth, in addition physical features and a physical location is given for the place of His coming and ensuing battle.
Zechariah 14:4
Ezekiel 39:11
Zechariah 12:11
Revelation 16:16
Joel 3:14

Sixth, at the time of Christ's return, He will take ruling dominion away from man (in the literal sense), and transfer it to Himself and His saints.
Daniel 2:44
Daniel 7:27
Ezekiel 39:25-29
Isaiah 65:17-25
Revelation 21:1-7
Isaiah 2:4
Micah 4:1-3
Zechariah 14:9
1Corinthians 15:23-28
Revelation 6:8-17
Revelation 7:9-17
Revelation 11:15
Luke 19:17


Seveth, the Devil will be bound from decieving the nations and there will war anymore.
Revelation 20:1-3
Isaiah 2:4
Micah 4:3

This is obviously not the world we live in.

Eighth, Jesus is coming back in defense of Israel, not destruction of:
Ezekiel 38:18
Zechariah 12:9-10
Zechariah 14:3-4


Ninth, the Bible warns against teaching these things as past
2Timothy 2:14-18
1Corinthians 15:12,20,23
2Peter 3:3-4

In short, the judgment on Jerusalem was foretold by Jesus (Matthew 23:37-38), but isn't the second coming of Christ. Just as Israel was punished in the Old testament and driven out of their land for 70 years, so after rejecting Christ they were punished again, but much more severely-this time 2000 years. Full preterism has trouble explaining the existence of natural Israel, Jews, and Jerusalem. The fact that Jesus is said to come back in a manner where both saint and sinner will see Him. That those alive and remaining would been turned to immortals in the twikling of an eye. There is a specific place that He is coming back to. The results will be the overthrow of the devil and sin, and war. The teaching that Jesus Christ has already came back fails on so many points, it is impossible to cover in a short debate.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

Your response OT.



Your response NT.



My conclusion: We both agree that 70 AD was the Judgment of God. This puts you in the position to explain why Jesus connects this 70 AD Judgment with His Coming. Mat 23:29-39, Mat 10:15-23



First. Of the passages you used to prove a rapture, two show the resurrection of the dead, one is within a vision and needs to be understood by prophetic language, and the last, if used as you do, is out of chronological order according to your doctrine. You have Matthew 24:29-31 speaking of a Coming 2000 years after Matthew 24:37-38. This is a clear gap in the chapter. You must: 1) Prove the Gap exists, 2) Show what verses are the 70 AD Judgment and what verses are the Coming of the Lord, and 3) Show us systematically how you have come to this conclusion. Your use of the scripture and your position is disjointed.



Second. No AFP believes He did. Actually Mat 16:27-28 states Jesus would return with his Fathers' angels, and that this would happen before some of the people listening to him that day were even dead. He did just that, returned in Judgment not alone. Clearly a reference to His Second Coming.



Third. You are pulling this scripture out of its context. Paul is contrasting the Levitical High Priesthood which had to offer sin offerings every year and itself was sinful verses Jesus who offered only once for all, and not for himself. The picture here is the enterence into the Holy of Holies with the blood and the exit of the Holy of Holies with atonement. Otherwise the scripture would be saying that Jesus was sinful the first time he came and not the second.





Forth and Fifth. The first three verses you quoted are impossible today unless you hold the Jews of all of history as guilty of the wrongful death of Jesus Christ our Lord. The fourth verse when correctly aligned with Luke 23:27-31 and your other scripture Rev 19:19 show Jesus talking to the women following him on the way to the cross. This points again to the Coming of 70 AD. No gap.



Sixth. Jesus never came or will come to set up a physical Kingdom on this earth. All your scriptures must be aligned with these too for your doctrine to be correct. What you posit would be the opposite of the Word of God. Please reconcile your physical Kingdom with these to scriptures:

Joh 18:36, Rom 14:17, and 1Co 15:50.



Seventh. The cross defeated Satan. He has no dominion over the nations anymore. Demonic dominion must come by individuals. If you understood the story of Namaan and the reason he wanted soil from Israel you would understand a little more what I mean. Also Jesus never came or will come to make peace on the earth. Jesus made this clear. Mat 10:34-36. This passage: Isaiah 2:1-4 can be understood by Bishop James' words here: Acts 15:15-17 as can Micah 2 with Romans 11.



Eighth. Daniel 9:24-27 clearly laid out that as a nation, God gave Israel one more chance. They had 490 years to complete the six points of that passage which would end with their Temple and City's destruction. No verse of prophetic scripture even remotely assumes the position of a future where God embraces Israel any other way but by His Church after that time. You cannot make the scripture say what you want it to. Any other view puts a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. If you posit that gap also please show where that is found in the text?



Ninth. Those scriptures when written, were yet to be fulfilled. Your logic fails. The Judaism uses the same type of logic in reference to Messiah. Jesus did not fit their idea of the Messiah, and Fulfilled Eschatology does not fit yours. Romans 8:24-25



In closing of my first response, Your cut and paste application of Matthew 24 does not show that the Judgment Coming of Christ was just that, the judgement of the Lord. The time texts and the statements of Jesus and his Apostles postulates a 70 AD Coming.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

My conclusion: We both agree that 70 AD was the Judgment of God. This puts you in the position to explain why Jesus connects this 70 AD Judgment with His Coming. Mat 23:29-39, Mat 10:15-23

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

First, several events happen when Christ comes back-among those is the rapture (ressurrection) of both the living saints and the dead.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

First. Of the passages you used to prove a rapture, two show the resurrection of the dead, one is within a vision and needs to be understood by prophetic language, and the last, if used as you do, is out of chronological order according to your doctrine. You have Matthew 24:29-31 speaking of a Coming 2000 years after Matthew 24:37-38. This is a clear gap in the chapter. You must: 1) Prove the Gap exists, 2) Show what verses are the 70 AD Judgment and what verses are the Coming of the Lord, and 3) Show us systematically how you have come to this conclusion. Your use of the scripture and your position is disjointed.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

Second, Jesus isn't coming back alone.
Jude 14
Revelation 19:11-14
Psalms 50:3-5
1Thessalonians 1:7

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

Second. No AFP believes He did. Actually Mat 16:27-28 states Jesus would return with his Fathers' angels, and that this would happen before some of the people listening to him that day were even dead. He did just that, returned in Judgment not alone. Clearly a reference to His Second Coming.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

Third,the scripture distinguishes the first coming of Christ from the second:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Acts 1:9-11

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

Third. You are pulling this scripture out of its context. Paul is contrasting the Levitical High Priesthood which had to offer sin offerings every year and itself was sinful verses Jesus who offered only once for all, and not for himself. The picture here is the enterence into the Holy of Holies with the blood and the exit of the Holy of Holies with atonement. Otherwise the scripture would be saying that Jesus was sinful the first time he came and not the second.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

Fourth, scripture uses the language of a phyiscal and visible coming.
Fifth, in addition physical features and a physical location is given for the place of His coming and ensuing battle.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

Forth and Fifth. The first three verses you quoted are impossible today unless you hold the Jews of all of history as guilty of the wrongful death of Jesus Christ our Lord. The fourth verse when correctly aligned with Luke 23:27-31 and your other scripture Rev 19:19 show Jesus talking to the women following him on the way to the cross. This points again to the Coming of 70 AD. No gap.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

Sixth, at the time of Christ's return, He will take ruling dominion away from man (in the literal sense), and transfer it to Himself and His saints.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

Sixth. Jesus never came or will come to set up a physical Kingdom on this earth. All your scriptures must be aligned with these too for your doctrine to be correct. What you posit would be the opposite of the Word of God. Please reconcile your physical Kingdom with these to scriptures:
Joh 18:36, Rom 14:17, and 1Co 15:50.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

Seveth, the Devil will be bound from decieving the nations and there will war anymore.
Revelation 20:1-3
Isaiah 2:4
Micah 4:3

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

Seventh. The cross defeated Satan. He has no dominion over the nations anymore. Demonic dominion must come by individuals. If you understood the story of Namaan and the reason he wanted soil from Israel you would understand a little more what I mean. Also Jesus never came or will come to make peace on the earth. Jesus made this clear. Mat 10:34-36. This passage: Isaiah 2:1-4 can be understood by Bishop James' words here: Acts 15:15-17 as can Micah 2 with Romans 11.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

Eighth, Jesus is coming back in defense of Israel, not destruction of

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

Eighth. Daniel 9:24-27 clearly laid out that as a nation, God gave Israel one more chance. They had 490 years to complete the six points of that passage which would end with their Temple and City's destruction. No verse of prophetic scripture even remotely assumes the position of a future where God embraces Israel any other way but by His Church after that time. You cannot make the scripture say what you want it to. Any other view puts a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. If you posit that gap also please show where that is found in the text?

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 745659)

Ninth, the Bible warns against teaching these things as past

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

Ninth. Those scriptures when written, were yet to be fulfilled. Your logic fails. The Judaism uses the same type of logic in reference to Messiah. Jesus did not fit their idea of the Messiah, and Fulfilled Eschatology does not fit yours. Romans 8:24-25

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 745734)

In closing of my first response, Your cut and paste application of Matthew 24 does not show that the Judgment Coming of Christ was just that, the Judgement of the Lord. The time texts and the statements of Jesus and his Apostles postulates a 70 AD Coming.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

Correct.


What vision? These passages clearly teach there will be a rapture, and that will be at the last trumpet. Instead of dismissing the scriptures please tell us when those who were alive were changed from mortals to immortals, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If the second coming of Christ has happened, there should be evidence of this event being past tense.
1Corinthians 15:51-53
1Thessalonians 4:17

I believe there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. That is not the subject here, maybe in the future.


Can you PROVE that Jesus came back with his angels? Who witnessed that?
Secondly, what do you do with the scriptures that teach he is coming back with his saints also? Just ignore them?



No one is debating if Jesus was sinful. The point is Jesus appeared when He was here the first time and will be appearent when he comes again. Acts 1:9-11 also backs this up.


I disagree with your conclusions, but since you affirm that Jesus did come back in 70AD, please tell us when Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6 happened. Revelation 19 deals with the armies that made war against Jesus and his armies. How did this hapen in 70AD? The Romans came to destroy the Jews, no mention of fighting against Jesus or even his saints, since the Christians had fled. I would also like other scriptures explained that you ignorned, but I'll wait for your explanation of these before moving on to the others.


The kingdom of God is presently a spritual kingdom. We don't fight this battle with bombs and guns. We fight it in prayer and obedience. But there is coming a time when the Kingdoms of this world will be overthrown by Christ. It is at that time (Armageddon) that He/we will fight.

Please explain how we are now living in the new earth, since all has been fulfilled. Again, I would like you to address the others passages I mentioned, but I will wait for your PROOF we are now living in the new earth.


I guess I don't understand. Was Syrian soil demonic? This is terrible hermunetics. The devil is bound by the blood of Jesus in a Christians life. To say Satan isn't decieving the nations is incredible.

How is Isaiah 2:4 understood by Acts 15?
Since all scripture is fulfilled, please PROVE when this has ever been the case:
"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

Satan's activity in our present world, and the full preterist view that Satan has no further punishment coming from God, the earth goes on and on forever in its present state is perhaps the biggest case AGAINST full preterism. When Jesus comes back He will literally bind Satan, and Jesus will rule, and accomplish what man never could, peace on earth, not one war during his reign.

Please go further into detail on this, explaining how Revelation 20:1-3 has already happened. And how Satan can be so active from a bottomless pit.



Again you ignored the scriptures, let me simplify it for you. How did God fight against the nations who came against Jerusalem as Zechariah 12:9 describes?

Your claims of failed logic equal to nothing. The scriptures remain for anyone to read in plain language.


In closing, I will say that I think you bring up a good question concerning Matthew 10:23. However, your argument is downhill from there. I do not feel that you even came close to explaining how many of the points I made were in error. I listed plenty of scripture, and have in the first response tried to narrow it down to even more specific scriptures so that you can PROVE to us how they have been fulfilled. If your position is correct, this should be easy to do.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Okay. Playtime is over.

Matthew 23:29-39 lays the foundation for Matthew 24. For your doctrine to work:



You have yet to prove there is a gap in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:37-38
(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

If this is a rapture then you have a problem. This scripture states that the Coming of the Lord was like the days of Noah. During the judgment in Noah's day it was the wicked that were removed from the earth not the righteous. So it was at the Coming of the Lord. The wicked were removed not the righteous.

Mat 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the reason that I quoted this in the beginning:



This scripture is clearly speaking of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, yet it uses the same exact type of language that is used in my original quote. You have already agreed that my original quote was a Judgment of God. I have shown above that this is a direct reference to the Coming of Jesus and that Jesus used the same language. To refute the plain language of these passages you will have to prove that the same language means completely different things between the two. You have no biblical reason to substantiate this. Please show how your doctrine can be correct with such plain language usage. If sun, moon, and stars stop shinning when the Babylonian Empire was destroyed, then they could also do the same when Jerusalem was. You will have to show how my original quote has not happened yet for your view of Matthew 24 to be credible.

Please show us your GAP.



You cannot prove a physical Coming of Jesus with Acts 1:9-11. It states the “same Jesus” would return “in like manner” as the “same Jesus” “went”. The manner that Jesus left their sight was not in a physical body. The manner which he was taken from their sight was by the Cloud that took him out of their sight.

Hebrews is talking about the High Priestly duty of Jesus. You are missing the whole point of that scripture when you place Acts 1:9-11 with it and try to prove a physical body by that. That is not good enough.



Zec. 12:10. Look at these verses: Acts Rev. 11:13 are two examples as is Rev 1:7, Acts 2:23, 40. Clear references to the 70 AD Coming. A Coming you have yet to prove did not take place as Jesus said it would.

Zec. 13, Peter stated this passage by Joel 2 were fulfilled in his generation please read Acts 2. Peter even goes so far as to say that he was living in the Last Days. What Peter taught on the Day of Pentecost is exactly what AFP teaches. Your futurism has changed the clear message. Prove that you, not Peter are living in the Last Days.


Jesus came to save the remnant of Israel in 70 AD. That remnant was in the Church. They were saved and left, and the wicked were removed. Your doctrine is on one side of Matthew 24 and the Word of God is on the other.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Okay. Playtime is over.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

What vision? These passages clearly teach there will be a rapture, and that will be at the last trumpet. Instead of dismissing the scriptures please tell us when those who were alive were changed from mortals to immortals, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If the second coming of Christ has happened, there should be evidence of this event being past tense.
1Corinthians 15:51-53
1Thessalonians 4:17

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

Can you PROVE that Jesus came back with his angels? Who witnessed that?
Secondly, what do you do with the scriptures that teach he is coming back with his saints also? Just ignore them?

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

You cannot prove a physical Coming of Jesus with Acts 1:9-11. It states the “same Jesus” would return “in like manner” as the “same Jesus” “went”. The manner that Jesus left their sight was not in a physical body. The manner which he was taken from their sight was by the Cloud that took him out of their sight. That is not good enough.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

I disagree with your conclusions, but since you affirm that Jesus did come back in 70AD, please tell us when Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6 happened. Revelation 19 deals with the armies that made war against Jesus and his armies. How did this hapen in 70AD? The Romans came to destroy the Jews, no mention of fighting against Jesus or even his saints, since the Christians had fled. I would also like other scriptures explained that you ignorned, but I'll wait for your explanation of these before moving on to the others.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Zec. 12:10. Look at these verses: Acts Rev. 11:13 are two examples as is Rev 1:7, Acts 2:23, 40. Clear references to the 70 AD Coming. Zec. 13, Peter stated this passage and Joel 2 were fulfilled in his generation please read Acts 2.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

A Coming you have yet to prove did not take place as Jesus said it would.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Jesus came to save the remnant of Israel in 70 AD. That remnant was in the Church. They were saved and left, and the wicked were removed. Your doctrine is on one side of Matthew 24 and the Word of God is on the other.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

Sixth, at the time of Christ's return, He will take ruling dominion away from man (in the literal sense), and transfer it to Himself and His saints.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Sixth. Jesus never came or will come to set up a physical Kingdom on this earth. All your scriptures must be aligned with these too for your doctrine to be correct. What you posit would be the opposite of the Word of God. Please reconcile your physical Kingdom with these to scriptures:
Joh 18:36, Rom 14:17, and 1Co 15:50.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

The kingdom of God is presently a spritual kingdom. We don't fight this battle with bombs and guns. We fight it in prayer and obedience. But there is coming a time when the Kingdoms of this world will be overthrown by Christ. It is at that time (Armageddon) that He/we will fight.
Please explain how we are now living in the new earth, since all has been fulfilled. Again, I would like you to address the others passages I mentioned, but I will wait for your PROOF we are now living in the new earth.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

Seveth, the Devil will be bound from decieving the nations and there will war anymore.
Revelation 20:1-3
Isaiah 2:4
Micah 4:3

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Seventh. The cross defeated Satan. He has no dominion over the nations anymore. Demonic dominion must come by individuals. If you understood the story of Namaan and the reason he wanted soil from Israel you would understand a little more what I mean. Also Jesus never came or will come to make peace on the earth. Jesus made this clear. Mat 10:34-36. This passage: Isaiah 2:1-4 can be understood by Bishop James' words here: Acts 15:15-17 as can Micah 2 with Romans 11.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

I guess I don't understand. Was Syrian soil demonic? This is terrible hermunetics. The devil is bound by the blood of Jesus in a Christians life. To say Satan isn't decieving the nations is incredible.

How is Isaiah 2:4 understood by Acts 15?
Since all scripture is fulfilled, please PROVE when this has ever been the case:
"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

Satan's activity in our present world, and the full preterist view that Satan has no further punishment coming from God, the earth goes on and on forever in its present state is perhaps the biggest case AGAINST full preterism. When Jesus comes back He will literally bind Satan, and Jesus will rule, and accomplish what man never could, peace on earth, not one war during his reign.

Please go further into detail on this, explaining how Revelation 20:1-3 has already happened. And how Satan can be so active from a bottomless pit.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

Eighth, Jesus is coming back in defense of Israel, not destruction of

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Eighth. Daniel 9:24-27 clearly laid out that as a nation, God gave Israel one more chance. They had 490 years to complete the six points of that passage which would end with their Temple and City's destruction. No verse of prophetic scripture even remotely assumes the position of a future where God embraces Israel any other way but by His Church after that time. You cannot make the scripture say what you want it to. Any other view puts a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. If you posit that gap also please show where that is found in the text?

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

Again you ignored the scriptures, let me simplify it for you. How did God fight against the nations who came against Jerusalem as Zechariah 12:9 describes?

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

reconcile the fact that the prophecy says the city shall be "found no more at all" with the fact that Jerusalem exists as a major city in our world.

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747070)

I do not feel that you even came close to explaining how many of the points I made were in error. I listed plenty of scripture, and have in the first response tried to narrow it down to even more specific scriptures so that you can PROVE to us how they have been fulfilled. If your position is correct, this should be easy to do

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Mat 24:37-38
If this is a rapture then you have a problem. This scripture states that the Coming of the Lord was like the days of Noah. During the judgment in Noah's day it was the wicked that were removed from the earth not the righteous. So it was at the Coming of the Lord. The wicked were removed not the righteous.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 747345)

Mat 24:29-31

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 747455)

Right, you see that your argument is failing, so you are going to your big guns. But before we go there, let's review what arguments you ignorned to provide any answers for:


IGNORED


IGNORED

So they WATCHED Him invisibly? No one who reads this debate will accept that. That is ridiculous. Reference here: Acts 1:9-11


REVELATION 19:19 was IGNORED, as well as the explanation of how the Romans or any other army fought against Jesus Christ.

Readers, please look up the scriptures posted. They do not at all answer what I asked. I asked specifically when Zechariah 13:6 was fulfilled. Again, when during 70AD did He pour out the spirit of grace and supplication on the inhabitants of Jerusalem? Certainly not during the Roman invasion. And when did He come to save them, and someone ask him "What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." Want to take another stab at it: Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6.

I would say that the burden of proof is upon you. You say the second coming is a thing of the PAST, so it should be easy for you to prove. I feel like the scriptures I have posted alone make my argument. Obviously you are not willing to show how they were fulfilled.


How were they left? All of the preterists teach that the christians had fled Jerusalem. With all due respect, you are reaching for anything.



IGNORED



IGNORED




IGNORED
Also ignored was the request:
This is in response to teaching Jerusalem in the whore of Revelation 17&18.


Judging by the amount of material you ignored, and the statement "playtime is over." I assume this is not easy for you to prove.

Wile I am tempted to ignore your points, as you did mine (j/k), I will actually deal with your post.


Brother, I don't know that this is a rapture scripture. When I listed rapture scriptures, this was not among them. This is a "be ready" scripture. If you want a futurists rapture scripture, I would say more along the lines of gathering the elect from the four winds, and two in the field, one taken the other left." So I'm not sure what your point is.


I have already agreed that sun,moon, and stars references are references to the the judgment of God. The second coming of Christ is unique, because not only is it a judgment of God, thus we see language commonly associated with God's judgment. But it is unique because He will gather His saints (rapture) and come back to this earth in the plain sight of men. See scriptures listed in my first response.

Brother, you've got alot of work to do.

Originally Posted by afp1996 (Post 748554)

I disagree that the rapture and the resurrection happened at the same time and both happen at the second coming of Christ. At least in the way you believe it.

1Thessalonians 4:13-17

Verses 13-16 speak of the dead and their resurrection. Verse 17 shows that those that were not dead at the time of the resurrection, who were alive past the resurrection would not be subject to the grave as their dead counterparts were but would be caught up to meet the Lord. When? 2Cor 5 says it will be realized when we put off this earthy house.

1Corinthians 15:27-50

Lays out that Jesus is the first fruits. Therefore the only visible proof of the resurrection needed.

1Corinthians 15:50-53

1)Says the physical body cannot inherit the Kingdom.
2)Those after the resurrection would not go to the grave. The prison for bodiless souls.
3)This would happen at the last trump.

1Corinthians 15:54-57

Clearly shows this would happen at the removal of the law system. AD 70 Coming and Judgment did just that with the Temple removed. This happened in Matt 24, which is a direct link to Daniel 12. Matt 24 has no gap in it's completion as you have failed to show one, and this all would happen within one generation. Jesus' generation per his own words. From the resurrection onward, with hell or the grave emptied, no one would go there again. For the Saved, the grave has no victory, and death has no sting.

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The change is being caught up so that we do not see the grave. The last trump sealed our future in eternity.