~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agree~
 

I am reading Alister McGrath's, newest book "Christianity's Dangerous Idea".

On page 32, he is describing the formation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate, he points out that up to the point of his translation certain passages in the Catholic translation were assumed to be scripture, when in fact they weren't.

One such passage was 1 John 5:7-8

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

He discovered in doing his Greek Translation that this passage was added after the 8th Century, most likely a commentary on the previous verses that a scribe took to be a passage of scripture.

I think for some this is old news, but I enjoyed discovering it and having a notable scholar point out this undermines a traditional cardinal doctrine of traditional Evangelicalism, the Trinity.

Anyway, while I am starting the book, I will report any other notable items.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Funny thing, that scripture always pointed to the Oneness of God whenever I read it.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Nope, should have never been in there.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

I have heard something similar about Matthew 28:19 as well.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

I don't know that 1 John 5:7 supports the doctrine of the trinity.
It could be taken as a support of the doctrine of oneness.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept 1 John 5:7 because it supports the deity of Christ. Modernists would also leave 1 John 5:7 out because it supports the deity of Christ. The late Gordon Magee believed that 1 John 5:7 was not really "Scripture" because, in his mind, it supported the doctrine of the trinity. He also believed Matthew 28:19 as it currently appears in our Bibles was a corruption of an earlier text.

It always bothers me to see folks "delete" something out of what we have accepted as "Scripture" for years. I think of King Jehoiakim and his pen knife and fire.

I think even most Oneness folks will admit that the word "one" in English can mean a numerical one as in we each have only "one" stomach or heaart, or it can mean "united" as in husband and wife being "one." We would say there is only "one" true church but we would also say that all the members are "one." We say that there is only "one" true God but we also say that our God is "one."

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

So cannot use that portion of scripture anymore to proof oneness..LOL

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

So what passage was suposed to be in its place or what was the passage suposed to say?:heart

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

You are correct Erasmus did not find it in his Greek manuscripts, which simply read: "There are three that bear witness; the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one." He was then accused of tampering with the text in an attempt to eliminate the doctrine of the Trinity and to devalue it corollary, the doctrine of the full divinity of Christ. Under pressure he added it back in his next edition, after a Greek manuscript was produced with the verse in it, it of course was a fraud, but it gave Erasmus and out and he caved.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

The argument about different Bible versions is not new.

Below are three versions of the same verse of Scripture.

The first is from the King James Version. The second is from a quote by Justin Martyr. The third is from a prayer which quotes the psalm on a Coptic Church website. This prayer is still in use today by Coptic Christians.

The quote from the writings of Justin Martyr was probably written from Ephesus shortly after the Bar-Kochba rebellion of 132-135 A.D. He is addressing a Jew named Trypho and he accuses the Jews who did not accept Jesus as Messiah of deleting something in their version of the Scriptures that they were using. Justin Martyr, a Christian writer, quotes from the Septuagint Bible, sometimes called the LXX. The LXX was a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek begun around 282 B.C. by 70 or 72 Jewish translators. The reason for the translation was because the old Hebrew language was not in popular use but had been replaced by Aramaic and Greek. Jews who had been disbursed all over the Roman Empire could more easily read the Greek translation. The LXX was used by the early Church quite often. This is one reason why Old Testament quotes in our New Testament are some times different than they currently read if you check them out in our Old Testament. Our Old Testament is based on the Hebrew (Masoretic) version but the early Christian writers used the Greek (LXX) version.

This Psalm, which is number 95 in the LXX but number 96 in the King James Bible, exalts our God above the heathen gods. Our God is called Lord (Greek Kurios) in the LXX and is called LORD (Hebrew Jehovah or YHWH) in the KJV. Note that verse 10 states that God (the Lord or Jehovah) reigns "from the tree." The tree is seen as a reference to the cross. This was used as a proof text by early Christians to prove that the God of the Hebrews, the LORD Jehovah Himself, had come to earth as Jesus and even though He had been crucified was reigning triumphantly.

The Coptic Church denomination has its headquarters in Egypt. History/tradition says that the Church is the result of St. Mark (author of the Gospel) evangelization in Egypt. The Church organization or denomination that still exists there today traces its history back to the first century.

Here are the different versions of the verse.

10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.(KJV)

10 Say among the Gentiles, the Lord has reigned from the tree. For he has established the world, which will not be moved; He will judge the people with justice. (LXX as quoted by Justin Martyr)

10 Say among the nations, “The Lord reigned on a wood: for He has established the world that it shall not be moved: He will judge the peoples in righteousness.”
(from the Coptic Church site)

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

I have always felt scripture doesn't need help, let it stand alone. This goes very every doctrine.

McGrath felt it to be undermining and damaging to those of the Trinitarian Persuasion.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Exactly, and the divinity of Jesus.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

I know Erasmus added it, but for this story you posted do you know where I can find an online source for it?

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Is this controversial enough ?
http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

The war is on.
http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/erasmus.asp

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

This is troubling in 2 ways,

This verse is a proof text for some on a view of God, that shouldn't be there.

Secondly, in our Bible we have 2 verses that are distinctly added to the written word, many have embraced them used them, having no clue that they are added, etc. This is very concerning.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Or they know and just keep it hidden...LOL

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Most disturbing of all if true.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Seems to me, y'all are just taking one man's word over another. How do we know for sure which is true?

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

My personal belief is that Matt 28:19 is a added interpolation. If it was original you would have seen much more of that type of phrasing used but nowhere is it used again.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Gail Riplinger..... LOL! Oh please!

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

So is God going to send people to hell for obeying a verse that is in their Bible?

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

I don't think it was added on. I believe the apostles knew what the name is, and acted accordingly.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

It's a historical fact that is only disputed by the fringe elements of the KJVO...

Even KJVOs will admit this was an interpolation by Erasmus

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Unfortunately there is zero hard evidence that it is an interpolation

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Sure, "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman, chapter three "Texts of the New Testament".

It is some interesting reading, though I disagree with his conclusions. Bart chairs the Dept. of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It is ironic that he is agnostic at best, atheist at worst.

Don't know if it is on line or not.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Hard evidence as in manuscripts of Matt besides the one later than the 4th century... yes you are correct. Direct quotations of the verse by Erasmus that support that it was not the same .... Yes! We have direct comments from Erasmus that do not support the current ending, let alone the Catholic Church admitting it was changed.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Like Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Not sure but I would not want to find out!

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

I believe God had the will and ability to keep the Bible free from error.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

I hope your right. But with which translation?

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Thanks, I hope I can find it.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Erasmus...Im not sure of his credibility at this point considering the comma. What is Erasmus quoting? An earlier MS that no longer exists? An early church father? An extra biblical document like the Didache?

Do you have a link where I can read about Erasmus quoted this reading?

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

It is the end of the gospel of Mark 16th chapter.

Understanding textual criticism will do wonders for your faith in the veracity and inerrancy of the Bible. For both higher and lower criticisms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

No Erasmus the historian in the 4th century!

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

The Bible is the anvil that wears the hammers of the critics out.

Re: ~Oh, My, The Father, Word and Spirit don't agr
 

Steve,

I am not a critic of scripture, I believe in the inerrancy/inspiration of scripture. God has preserved his word, but man has a role to. Just as God has preserved His Church, man messes it up.

The other point being I do not put my head in the sand when it comes to an obvious discrepancy. Plus the text being a proof text for trinitarians to prove their doctrine.

It doesn't change my view or use of scripture, just pointing out a historical tidbit.

keith