Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Can you explain this puzzling paradox?

Why did Jesus tell Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:" and then, eight days later, asked Thomas to "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side:"


John 20

11But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,

12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.

14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.



26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

did he not accend betwen the two happenings?

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

don't think so.....lemme go look

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

I believe He did ascend. :)

Atonement had to be made. He had to present the blood, so to speak. After He resurrected, he was on his way THAT DAY. Lev 16:17 says that the high priest cannot have any man mar or taint him while performing atonement. The passage you cited with Mary was just the same picture.

Notice His change of terms after, which must be explained by an ascension.

John 20:22-23 KJV And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

He said nothing like that to Mary! Why not? He had not yet ascended.

But he begins to make astounding declarations! Why? He ascended immediately after speaking to Mary.

Sis Alvear is correct, I believe.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

But, John does not mention the ascension, at all, between these two occurances.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

I do not think he had to. Since Jesus told Mary to not touch Him due to Him having not yet ascended, and He told Thomas to touch Him, he must have Ascended. The bible never told us here that He was ascending to make atonement, either, but He was.

Leviticus 16:17 KJV And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

It does not say that He was acting as High Priest at this point, either, but we know He was due to words said elsewhere.

My thoughts, anyway.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Well, he does...sort of:


17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He tells her not to touch Him, because He has not yet ascended--so if He later allows Thomas to touch Him, we can assume the ascension occurred, right?

Also, He tells Mary to go to his brethren and tell them that He [was ascending] unto the Father. That leads me to believe that His ascension took place after seeing Mary, but before He came and stood in the disciples' midst.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

I agree with you and MissB, but I can see where a casual reader would be confused at how John 21 reads. My future son-in-law asked me this question tonight, and I thought I would pose the question to you theologians. :thumbsup

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Yes. Why would he wait forty more days to finally ascend to make atonement, if He arose from the dead ready for atonement? Death, burial and resurrection were not the complete work of the cross. That only provided the death that shed blood proved had occurred, when the blood was then presented on the mercyseat of the ark to actually cause atonement. The mercyseat on earth represented the throne of God in Heaven, as we see the cherubims and their wings above the mrecyseat just as Isaiah saw seraphims and their wings above the throne of God in Heaven. Jesus was on His way to Heaven's throne to make atonement as High Priest.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

"Theologians"? lol :D

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

I believe Elder Blume is correct as the High Priest he could not be touched while in HIs journey to the Holiest of All to place the blood on the Mercy Seat. Heb.9;12

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

that is what I have always thought.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

John 12 sheds some light on this topic.

16These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

17The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.

18For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.

19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.

22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.

23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Yes, which also helps answer your other question posted about the glory.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

That is my understanding also.
Somewhere between the "touch me not" of John 20:17 and His appearance the same day to some of the disciples in John 20:19-23, Jesus ascended and presented the blood to the Father.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Well explained brethren.

One small point to be seen here as well. The fact that the word of God is, indeed, the word of God.

The apostles say that they had reached the world and had been made known to all nations and yet people will argue that it has not.

When the word of God says it is done. It is done.

Here Jesus says he cannot be touched because he hasn't yet ascended. Later on he allows himself to be touched.

If the word of God is the word of God then... clearly... between the 2 incidences... Jesus ascended.

Let the word be the word. :)

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Yeah, except that Thomas didn't touch Jesus. Jesus would have know he wouldn't, so offered anyway, even though perhaps He still couldn't be touched. Note also, He appeared in the room when the doors were shut. Just sayin'. ;)

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Daniel 7:13:
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Rev. 14:13-20;
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe."
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.
20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia (furlongs).

In reading the question asked on this thread, these verses came to mind.
Interesting that Jesus seemed to travel about on a cloud. He left on a
cloud and Daniel sees one like a son of man, coming with clouds of heaven.

John looked and saw a white cloud and one seated on the cloud, like a "son
of man". This "son on man" was wearing a crown of gold. Evidently HE had
been crowned!

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Our God is an awesome God,
He reigns from Heaven above,
With wisdom, pow'r and love,
Our God is an awesome God


Lord I lift your name on high
Lord I love to sing your praises
I'm so glad you are in my life
I'm so glad you came to save us.

You came from heaven to earth, to show the way
From the earth to the cross, my debt to pay
From the cross to the grave, from the grave to the sky
Lord I lift your name on high.

Interesting?

Falla39

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

I am in my office and have no resources but did Jesus use the same words to both Thomas and Mary? I thought the idea with Mary was quit clinging to me, let go, rather than not touching.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Many commentaries say that. But the key is why Jesus specifically gave the reason to Mary as not having yet ascended to the Father. How would that apply to general idea of clinging to Him?

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Maybe like this, "Hey I gotta run you need to let go now."

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

If there was just one ascension, from the Mount of Olives many days later, this would be a little weird. So much to do, so little time? He didn't seem rushed, at any of the other appearances to people.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

McDonalds was about to to quit serving breakfast and he had to get going because Papa wanted him to pick up a sausage mcmuffin. I don't know what his schedule was.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

:lol

OK, but if there was something urgent to do, not recorded, it wouldn't make sense to offer the 'not ascended yet' reason, right then, would it? Unless there really was another, unrecorded, ascension, as some are saying. But then there is the point I made in my first post.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Barnes

Touch me not ... - This passage has given rise to a variety of interpretations. Jesus required Thomas to touch him Joh_20:27, and it has been difficult to ascertain why he forbade this now to Mary. The reason why he directed Thomas to do this was, that he doubted whether he had been restored to life. Mary did not doubt that. The reason why he forbade her to touch him now is to be sought in the circumstances of the case. Mary, filled with joy and gratitude, was about to prostrate herself at his feet, disposed to remain with him, and offer him there her homage as her risen Lord. This is probably included in the word touch in this place; and the language of Jesus may mean this: “Do not approach me now for this purpose. Do not delay here. Other opportunities will yet be afforded to see me. I have not yet ascended - that is, I am not about to ascend immediately, but shall remain yet on earth to afford opportunity to my disciples to enjoy my presence.” From Mat_28:9, it appears that the women, when they met Jesus, held him by the feet and worshipped him. This species of adoration it was probably the intention of Mary to offer, and this, at that time, Jesus forbade, and directed her to go at once and give his disciples notice that he had risen.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

These commentaries must be the prophecy leading to the Star Trek series and movies. Mary being the first Klingon.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Actually, give them notice that He ascends to the Father.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

:lol

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

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John 16:13-20,

However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

16 “A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.” 17 Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18 They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”
19 Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, “Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’? 20 Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy

Remember the disciples were ignorant and unlearned fishermen. They were
not college graduates. Jesus taught them as little children, Simple and plain.
He taught them while he was with them. Later, after he ascended, they
would remember things he had said unto them and understand what he was
talking about. Right before he ascended he opened their understanding, that
they might understand the scriptures. On occasion he told them he had many
things to say to them but they could not bear (hear.understand) it. They
were not mature enough. Also Paul taught, knowing the churches did not
fully understand, but as they matured they would.

It is no different today. In later years, after my children were grown and gone,
I have applied myself to diligently "eat" the Word. Many things I did not under-
stand when I was younger and immature, are clear today. but as He sees I'm
hungry and ready for more, HE leads and guides me into more.

If we never apply ourselves to get out of elementary school, we won't be
promoted to the middle grades, and eventually to high school. Then there
is higher education and life's experiences which we can learn from. It is a
progressive journey.

Many times today I see much younger people with an attitude that just
because they've been to a Bible College OR secular college, they know it
all!! Let me say to whom it might concern: THERE IS ONLY ONE KNOW IT ALL!
ALLLLLL-MIGHTY GOD!!!!!! HIS NAME IS JESUS!!!

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

It was because Mary was a woman, so she couldn't touch him. That's what what I read somewhere a long time ago, can't remember the reasoning though.

:doggyrun

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

No, the commentator is saying that Jesus was saying.....Don't touch me now, I haven't ascended yet...there will be time for longer greetings later but go tell the others I am risen.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

I was saying what Jesus told Mary to do. Didn't say to tell them He was risen. Said to tell them He ascends.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

No Rabbi could be touched by a woman.
I think the real strict ones still enforce that to this day.
Although Jesus did allow a woman to wash His feet on a couple of occasions.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Timmy,

Those classes on Reclaiming the Mind about the canon of Scripture and the Bible that I suggested you watch are being discussed on Paltalk with one of the class instructors, Michael Patton, every Tuesday at 9pm EST. You should stop in. It's in the Christianity section and the room is called The Theology Program. Visitors are welcome to come and listen and ask questions.

Re: Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?
 

Got a link?