Is our bible complete?
 

I ask this because in 1st Corinthians 5:9, Paul mentions a previous letter. I have read in various other places that there were at least four letters to Corinth in total.

My questions are this:

Where are the other two? Why aren't they canonized? Should we, as Christians, assume they are not important, because they are not canonized?

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

I'm busy just trying to live by what we already have. Don't confuse me with more options.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Who knows... But I would love to know what they said.

There are other books mentioned in the Bible as well...

The Book of Enoch
The Book of Jasher

etc

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

I, also, am busy trying to live by what we already have and would welcome additional books that might shed even more light on the spirit and nature of God that we may walk therein.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

I know there are books that were not added for what reason I do not know why they would not be added...

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Especially when some of those books were quoted from by the authors of books that were accepted as canonical.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

If the books in question which have not been added to "our" bible are actually God inspired, as stated in 2 Tim 3:16, should we reexamine what constitutes as "The Holy Bible"?

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

O yea don't think for one sec I think our bible is 100% correct remember men put the bible together and they got to pick and choose what got put in it..LOL

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Well... I don't see any new canonical convention happening any time soon.

But I can read for myself those books and extend my own horizons without an official "Welcome To The Canon" party being thrown.

We need not be limited by what men label as Bible...

If we consider it to be a God inspired book... then we should simply read it. There is no need in going through a big hoopla just so that others will accept said book.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

I think you can get a bible with the missing books in it also you can get one were the scriptures are in order as they happened our bible is not chronologically in order...

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

I had a friend when we lived in Houston who had an old (400 years old I believe) Bible from his homeland of Ethiopia. It contained the Book of Enoch I know for sure... maybe others.

It was written on leathery type material.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Fortunately, there is historical evidence about the other 2 letters from Paul to Corinth. Also, the letters to Corinth tell us about those letters. One of them was notoriously referred to as the "sorrowful letter" (ref. in 2 Cor 2:4). We know one letter was extremely harsh and sharp and the other apologetic, warm and soft.

Those who are just learning some of this should research great works published about the Biblical canon, and the great pains the Church Fathers took to decide which should be included. There was much criteria -- including going by things that were already being read in congregations, works written by apostles vs non-apostles (there were hundreds of copies of other books by non-apostles), the work had to be free of contradiction (way of weeding out the pseudo-epistles that were fraudulently being copied), dating of when books were written, etc.... some of our favorite books were once on the chopping block (I and II Peter for example) because of issues with orthodoxy. So there were scores of reasons for the current canon. That said, there is till much value, and accessible to some of these older books. Most of the historians have records (Eusebius, Justin, etc).

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

I'm not being argumentative here.... simply asking a true question.

Who are the church fathers that you speak of that worked so hard to lay the current canon out

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

John 16:13-20,

However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

16 “A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”
17 Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18 They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”
19 Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, “Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’? 20 Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Hi Digging4Truth!

They are the early writers, theologians and church leaders. The earliest were called the Apostolic Father (obviously they've been hijacked by the RCC as their own): Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, etc... Among there extra-biblical writings were the didache. Ironically, one of the "church fathers", Tertullian, was responsible for the eventual language used to describe the doctrine of the Trinity -- well, the irony, is that later he opposed his own doctrine and joined the Montanus, pretty close to oneness pentecostals!

There names are vasts, and any library search will get you plenty to read on. It was these men in the 2nd & 3rd Century that eventually helped complete the NT canon.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Check this out.
http://www.thescriptures.org/canonization/index.html

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

:popcorn2

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Another something of interest.
http://cbc-kjv.org/images/Canon%20of...%20Samples.pdf

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Great link, Scott!
Too much info to try and paraphrase on the forum... thanks for sharing. I'll definitely resource this.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Another view on the subject here.
http://searchwarp.com/swa413703.htm

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

You're welcome glad to be of some help.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Thanks for your very informative answer. I appreciate it.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

You're welcome!

I enjoy reading about Tertullian. The man responsible for labeling all of us oneness believers as heretics, later become a heretic himself!

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Were any mistakes made in deciding on the canon? Anything there that shouldn't be, or anything that should be that isn't? Perhaps there were mistakes at times, but they were later corrected? Perhaps there are still some mistakes that will be corrected at some time?

:popcorn2

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

There seems to be mistakes...

1: Where are the other letters that Paul wrote to the church at Corinth?
2: What about the aforementioned books of Enoch and Jasher (I mean, the Holy Ghost inspired men to reference these books).
3: If you study Eusebius' writings on early church history, he quotes Mat 28:19 at least 19 times without mentioning the Trinitarian formula.
4: ???

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

However, I think it's important to note that I do believe the CORE of the gospel message is intact, and not corrupt. :thumbsup

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

If he quotes it without mentioning the trinitarian formula, what does he say? What's the quote?

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Most typically: Go disciple ye all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Here's some good reading:

http://www.godglorified.com/matthew_2819.htm

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/evr-last-gosp.htm

http://www.israelofgod.org/Constantine.htm

Also:

The Encyclopedia of Religion And Ethics states that Mt 28:19 "is the
central piece of evidence for the traditional view [trinitarian
formula]. If it were undisputed, this would, of course, be decisive,
but its trustworthiness is impugned on the grounds of textual
criticism, literary criticism, and historical criticism… [However] The
facts are, in summary, that Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 twenty one
times, either omitting everything between 'nations' and 'teaching,' or
in the form 'make disciples of all nations in my name,' the latter
form being the more frequent… the traditional [trinitarian] text was
brought about by the [trinitarian baptismal] influence working on the
Eusebian [Gospel of Matthew, which originally stated "in My name"]
text”.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to
the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the
second century."

New Catholic Encyclopedia, VOL 2, 1967, pp.59

“An explicit reference to the Trinitarian formula of Baptism cannot be
found in the first centuries. The Didache, for instance, merely
repeats Mt 28:19. In the East, St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) is the
first to report it: “N. is baptized in the name of the Father and of
the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

You better hope so! I mean, what if some lost letter of Paul (whether to Corinth or whatever) has some little detail that we'd need? What if he said you can't get to Heaven unless you, I dunno, let your toe nails grow out at least an inch?

(Is that silly? Of course it is. Almost as silly as a maximum (though unspecified) length of hair for men, or prohibiting women's hair to be cut. :lol But maybe there's something missing that's not quite that silly, and we'll never know. :hmmm Heaven may be almost empty, just because those letters were lost!)

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Or maybe there's a missing letter that settles the 1 vs 3 step question, once and for all! :toofunny

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Some people immediately shut down if you say that the bible may not contain 100% of God breathed scriptures, or if you suggest that the Bible, or even the KJV was altered in any way, such as Mat 28:19, 1 John 5:7, etc.

People take it as a personal attack.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Is man perfect....Nope... so therfore I would not think the bible would be...LOL

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

ahh yes...the imperfect Word. I've often wondered what St.Paul would think if he got to see how we interpret his letters....without knowing him or who he was writing to.

Ensey(?) has a book that does a decent job of tracking where the modern cannon came from.

Timmy...makes you wonder what the "hair" prophets would be preaching if that letter hadn't made the cut.:)

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

Mat 28:19 has much evidence against it to show it was, perhaps, adjusted by the RCC. Why did they not also adjust the Book of Acts too then?

The reasons Paul's letters and other apocryphal books weren't included are mentioned in books that reference the canonizing of the Bible. Some letters were historical-only... they definitely could not include them all. If they didn't pass the test of authenticity (dozens of steps), then they weren't included. The Apocryphal books that Jesus quoted were stories kept as tradition among the Jews... there were very significant reasons why it wasn't canonized though. There's also nothing contradictory in many of those books, and they make great reference guides to Scripture.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

KWSS, not to be rude, but that's odd logic. Bible vs. Man. Man is not perfect, therefore the Bible can't be? Do you not believe in God's hand over these matters?

I'll borrow your logic, and use it this way: God is perfect, therefore His Word is.

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

No thats not odd logic thats the truth who put the bible together that we have now...it was men like me and you and we are not perfect....Not to mention how many times the bible has been copied and recopied and edited

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

It either means that current letter....the text does not say "a previous letter"....what translation is that?

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people

Or it does refer to a former letter that does not exist anymore.

Does that make the bible not complete? Not at all. We'd have to assume there are new commands of God found in that letter not found in the NT anywhere. We have to assume also that such a letter in the eyes of God is or was necessary for us to have and God screwed up somewhere in not getting it to us

Re: Is our bible complete?
 

I disagree with what this line of thought lends itself to.

When one says our Bible is not 100% correct, then it opens most folks up to the idea that they can believe and practice whatever they feel is worth practicing or believing.

The Bible we have is complete enough for the salvation of the souls who read and adhere in faith in Jesus Christ.