Baptism from God's Perspective
 

I was thinking about all the posts about baptism...you know whether it is important what the preacher says prior to baptism.

Let me challenge you to back away from your theology for a moment and think about a couple of points about the Body of Christ in general.

Two men - one is "trinity" and one is "oneness" both tell stories of how they had visitation from Jesus and that He spoke with them about their ministries about the times they lived in and so forth.

The men: Kenneth Hagin (the Senior one) and Chester Hensley

I have heard accounts of both men (Hensley in person and Hagin through books). Both claiming to have had several encounters with Jesus, yet neither of these men stated that Jesus Himself told them, "Make sure and get 'the others' rebaptized the way you understand it."

As the one guy posted on this forum (don't remember who it was) proclaimed in bold, colored, all cap letters "if you are not baptized in the Name of Jesus you are going to hell." Well, if this is true there are a lot of trinitarian people out there who truly love the Lord. I would think that if "the way" of baptism was so important that Jesus would have mentioned it to one of these guys.

Then we could look at a multitude of people who are considered to be "God's Generals." These would be people like Alexander Dowie, Maria Woodworth Etter, Seymour, Kuhlman, Wigglesworth, Branum, Sumrall, and others. Of those who operated in an absolute power and demonstration of God they were split with about 30% being oneness and about 70% being trinity.

People have die hard opinions of baptism, but my question is....."does God?"

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

:popcorn2

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

I hope not.


There are just so many sincere Trinitarians baptized the way they know.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

You know, that has been the major point of contention (in oneness circles) for decades! We, I believe, can't see the forrest for the trees. God, could easily, if He wanted to, give the oneness revelation including baptism in Jesus' name on a wide scale. He hasn't. He has had plenty of opportunities to do so and still does.

So, is God playing a game? Does He not relent in sending HG filled "trinnies" to hell?

Has he blinded the eyes of the vast majority of ALL sincere believers/christians throughout the ages only to consign them to a devil's hell for their omission which HE was in control of?

My thoughts: What kind of a sick "moral" creature would actually behave that way? I'm sorry, but is NOT the God whom I serve. The God whom I serve and whom the bible speaks of hears the sinner's cry for salvation and receives those who genuinely put their lives into His hands! If He desires to lead them further into "truth" then that really is not difficult for Him to do.

Why doesn't He? That's the question! IMO, it is because He is far MORE concerned about them coming to Him than he is about the doctrinal minutiae that we fuss and fight about down here. I think "we'll" be sorely surprised when we get to the other side and find out who made it. :D

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Sir,

God does not blind anyone-- people blind themselves in error.

The Bible speaks of the blind being led by the blind and the both falling into the ditch.



The Bible speaks of folks who do great exploits in the Name of Jesus, and those folks are told, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity. I never knew you."



So there is some danger in deception, some danger in not doing things and not believing the way the Bible prescribes, teaches, and commands.


It was a man that changed Matthew 28:19 (so I beleive).
It was a sin commited by a sinful man.

Who's to say that this good-willed but blind man did not do the unthinkable-- leading millions of souls away from GOD, His Will, and His Identity through His Son?

If that man was wrong? Was it sin?
If it was sin, the people who follow him are in sin too, right?

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

We believe that God has preserved his word for us, and that it is true. So why did he allow Matt. 28:19 to be changed, and to stand all of these years? When it will cause so many sincere, honest, God-fearing and loving people to burn in hell?

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

For all you greek,hebrew,noun,pronoun proper grammer folks on here...lol

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/web/Trinity7.htm

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

But Matthew 28:19 in the original Greek does not mention the F, S or Hg in the first place!

So the whole premise in the link provided is based on a fallacy in the first place!

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Everyone from Pentecost until the rapture is lost without being immersed in Jesus Name. ONLY through immersion in Jesus Name are sins remitted in the NT church age. I hope this helps.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

But Steve you said that the water does not save you so how can you be lost If I am correct here you said the blood on calvery is what saved us not immersion....

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

The shed blood forgives and remits sins through faith I appropriate the blood through obeying the gospel. Part of that gospel is immersion in Jesus Name FOR the remission of sins and all who have not been immersed in Jesus Name do NOT have their sins remitted.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

So everytime you sin Steve you go get rebaptised?

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

God's opinion on baptism is written in the word of God. Does God have die hard opinions on baptism? Does the word say he does or does not?

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

No baptism remits past sins it is the birth of water of Jn. 3:5 we are only born once. Repentance takes care of the sins of saints they have already been born again.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

I thought repentance removed past sins.....If you repent,be baptised in jesus name the next day go sin then when you repent you are remiting the past sin you just commited plus when you repent the first time god remits those past sins...Your way you have to get baptised in water everytime you sin to get sins remitted..

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

You comment is interesting although as I believe totally in error. Although I think the most interesting thing about it is the power of personal theology.

Now, I know you fully believe what you have said and I respect that, but it is so contrary to what God has done.

I think that Man of the Word's comments would more be more accurate in a pure oneness theology, but even his comments are extremely interesting because his approach is that he is totally correct and is trying to fit God into His belief system.

Could it possibly be that God knows more than us and those who say "God's opinion is clearly written in His Word" are really saying that in terms of "how they interpret His Word."

It is very evident that there are many trinitarians who live cleaner more holy lives than oneness (and vice versa), there are many trinitarians who pray in the Spirit more than oneness (and vice versa), there are many mighty works done through trinitarians (and vice versa), so it may just be that God's standard is different than man's standard

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

It is my opinion that one has to be water baptized to be saved. Any acceptations due to disability make the rule and leave us with the ability without excuse).

As to “wording” when being water baptized. I sometimes fear that we use the name of Jesus like it’s some kind of magic incantation spoken by a minister that washes away sin. Biblically speaking, it is the one being baptized that is commanded to call on the name of the Lord, not the baptizer. Look at what Paul was told,

Acts 22:16
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

It was Paul’s responsibility to call upon the name of the Lord at his baptism and have his sins washed away.

I believe whole heartedly that the original Apostolic method of water baptism involves calling on, or invoking, the name of the Lord Jesus at the moment of baptism. However, I don’t think these “formulas” are the point. The point is … is the one being water baptized calling on the power of the name of Jesus to wash away their sins? Many powerful men of God down through history were baptized under the traditional Trinitarian formula. However, a number of them were being obedient to Scripture by seeking water baptism… and were indeed calling upon the name of the Lord at the moment they were water baptized. While I will agree that these men underwent a baptism using a traditional “formula”, I firmly believe that if they, themselves, were calling on the name of the Lord in a humble and repentant heart, God accepted their act of faith-filled obedience and remitted their sin. In Heaven, they will give glory to Jesus, remembering having called upon his name… not the words muttered by some religious official. Same with Oneness Apostolic folk; if the individual being water baptized is relying on the verbiage of some Apostolic preacher… he’s not relying on Jesus. He’s relying on a man, and the baptism is ineffectual, they only get wet. However, if that person is praying and calling on the name of Jesus, the man of God of course freely praying and calling on the name with them, God hears him regardless of what the preacher says.

As for Holy Ghost infilling - men like Tyndale, Luther, Wesley, etc. had very powerful spiritual experiences while in prayer with weeping, groaning, and unintelligible sobbing that they didn’t label or fully understand. I believe that this was the baptism of the Holy Ghost. While yes, they were still entrenched in much “tradition” they were being used of God to bring the church back to Apostolic purity like the prophets of old… one generation at a time. And I do expect to see them in Heaven. I wouldn’t be reading a Bible today if not for Tyndale. He will not loose his reward. If these men were alive today, I believe they’d be at the cutting edge of what God is doing. Sadly, our Apostolic denominations are growing cold and traditional in their own ways. Keep an eye open… the weather’s right for another move of God… another reformation.

Most might shudder at the idea of another Reformation and our beloved organizations becoming old wineskins. But think about it… there’s still much “tradition” in us; for example, the Lord’s Supper. Biblically speaking, the Lord’s Supper isn’t adequately observed with a wafer and thimble of juice. It’s a full meal, remembering the broken body and shed blood at Calvary and looking forward to Christ’s coming and the day when we will sit and feast with him at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Our pot-luck dinners have more in common with the Lord’s Supper than our Catholic Communion services. This is a Catholic Tradition we embrace and practice often. It needs to go and we need to return to the fullness of the Lord’s Supper.

I’ll stop there. You get my point.

For me the issue isn’t so much who muttered what over one being baptized… it’s whose name was the one being baptized calling upon at the moment of water baptism. That is where baptism has its true power.

I digress.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Aquila, maybe I didn't have enough coffee this morning, but could you rephrase the above as I don't get what you are saying

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Aquila per your statement
show me where in scripture someone with a disability gets a free ride...

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Aquila,

I have to honestly say that there is very little that I agree with you on. But the above was worded excellently and I totally agree with it! :thumbsup

I'll leave the rest of what you said alone. I don't want to ruin a good moment

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

NOT ONE person since Pentecost has recieved remission of sins without being immersed in Jesus Name. I hope that clears everything up.:thumbsup

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Seriously, shall we start with all the issues in the Bible that make Matt 28:19 simply another issues of a interpolation like several others. God did preserve his word whether Matt 28:19 is part of the original or not. If your view of preserved 100% accurate.... your out of luck as no scholar except delusional KJ Only people who don't even agree with the Greek would say that. Thus they make the KJV a new revelation without anything to verify it as it even corrects teh Greek it came from. Talking about a world turned upside down on it's head.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

So not one person is saved at repentance....Jesus does not save at repentance Steve

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Repentance only brings a person properly before God to the alter of sacrifice to be joined togethor with Christ. Baptism is the place we are unified in his death. Without repentance there is no joining in sacrifice with Christ as you are unequally trying to yoke two hearts.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

So jesus does not remit your sins at repentence

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

It only clears up where your theology is, but that was not difficult to figure out :thumbsup

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

I’m not absolutely certain that there would be any exceptions. I believe that our God is merciful and isn’t a legalistic tyrant who would watch one who cannot be baptized due to circumstance - or disability – to perish if it is possible to save them by his own decree. If anything, just as Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us who obey, certainly his obedience to water baptism could be imputed to those who cannot. But I have NO biblical grounds to establish this as a certainty.

I am reminded of a passage in the Law. At one point a sacrifice was required, however, if one couldn’t afford to bring the prescribed sacrifice, they were permitted to offer up turtledoves (which were cheap and abundant) in its place. It’s the spirit of this Law from which I draw the possibility of there being a possible exception. Of course, this doesn’t lay out any certainty of there being an exception for those whose circumstances or health present disability. I’m just considering the spirit of this Law in context of this question. IF (big “if” here) a mercy can be granted here it leaves us who can be baptized and refuse to without excuse.

Personally, I believe that the anointing of the sick in the book of James presents a very powerful truth in this area. Please review it and consider its implications.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Allow God to be God.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

I had a provocative thought while sitting here contemplating this thread.

We would all agree that it wouldn’t matter if an individual had 100 Apostolic ministers screaming the proper Jesus name “formula” over them at their water baptism if that person wasn’t individually calling upon the name of Jesus to wash away his or her sins.

With that in mind let me ask this question…

If an individual had 100 Trinitarian ministers screaming the Trinitarian “formula” over them at their water baptism, yet they as an individual cried out to the name of Jesus to wash away their sins, is it of no effect?

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

If an individual called out to Jesus which is repenting asking for fogivness why do we need water the water does not physically remove sin Jesus does

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Thank you that was the purpose for the post just in case someone was in doubt.
"All Trinitarians are lost" remember that thread? :thumbsup

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Are you in the body at repentance? No! Have you been united with is death at repentance? No! Thus your answer is no! Repentance brings you to the place of the alter "then you can offer your gift/yourself"!

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

uh maybe to be united in his death/blood/sacrifice. In which I have explained to you before!

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

His blood was the gift........Not you.... and yes you are in his body at Repentence because you are forgiven when you repent....

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

So you don't offer yourself to be united with him? Seriously you need to read his Word! By you turning to him through repentance unto baptism you are offering yourself as his servant pledging loyalty to him. Thus you bring yourself to his "offering" of which he has promised to be united with him in his sacrifice! Understand Romans 6 and

Mat 5:23 So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift.

This is the law of atonement! Your must first turn in pureness of heart before you can offer yourself to God in baptism/sacrifice to be united with him in HIS DEATH. You are united in HIS sacrifice/death!

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Bro Steve. Please reconcile your statement above with this verse.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Seems to me that Peter clearly states that baptism does NOT SAVE FROM THE FILTH OF THE FLESH, but only allows for a "good conscience toward God."

I have known people baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, in the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost, the name of Jesus Christ" etc.

These seemly, by our preaching, have the name and are "on the road to heaven waiting for the rapture" but yet many have no victory in their life and continue to live in their sin. If there is no salvation in their heart, the water does no good at all.

I contend that even "saved" "baptized" "holy Ghost filled" "saints" who do not change but continue to live in their sin are still not going into the kingdom of God. Living clean and holy would seem to be a fruit of our salvation. My point being that the "water" and "when the blood is applied" argument is fruitless without carrying it to the end, personal holiness. ?? So just to say that if one is baptized in Jesus' name they are save is not the complete picture.

Agree?

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Note:
Peter clearly states "Baptism doth now save us!"

No it is not a ceremonial washing to the cleansing of the flesh but it IS AN ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God. Baptism in Jesus Name remits sins thus clears the conscience of all wrong doing.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Your passage in Matthew has nothing to do with baptism, but your relationship with others.

Atonement has nothing to do with the New Testament. In fact the word is only used like one time in the New Testament and is a poor translation of the original word.

To say that Jesus blood "atoned" for the sins of man is to reduce the blood of Jesus to blood of bulls and goats. Jesus' blood remitted our sins not covered them.

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

Your illustration reminded me of a story I read today...it's off topic other than it deals with baptism.

The article was about the church in China and the need for solid teaching. Anyway, a lady read were Jesus was baptized and the Holy Spirit was seen like a dove coming down from heaven. As a believer she felt the need to be baptized, however when she didn't see the dove she kept getting baptized over and over again and eventually drowned.

I wonder if she went to heaven :)

Re: Baptism from God's Perspective
 

He does clearly state "Baptism doth now save us" but the parenthetical statement that follows clarifies the original statement, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh". To me that is very plain. Baptism has nothing to do with the cleansing of the flesh nor does it remit sins. It is, however, the proper response of one who has been cleansed and demonstrates that they have a clear conscience toward God.

Though I do not agree with you on this one point (baptism)....I highly respect you...and appreciate your posts and your stand for the truth (the Oneness of God and Deity of Jesus Christ).

I was actually more interested in your perspective on people who seem to follow the repentance, baptism, and filled with the Holy Ghost, steps. And yet do not continue in holiness; they go back to a woman or man, drugs and drinking etc. Not to mention the ones in our churches who look the part but inside are full of gossip, hatred, and a brother killing spirit of Cain. A minister recently made the case to me that Apostolic people have more adultery, fornication, incest, and homosexuality than any other denomination. That may or may not be true. But I still do not understand how a people who claim to have THE ONLY WAY OF SALVATION have so many who continue to live unholy, ungodly, and defeated lives; why is not our salvation more effective on our people if it is the ONLY WAY?