Do you still believe the doctrine after leaving?
 

When you left the standards did you also leave the doctrine of Acts 2:28?

Do you still believe in oneness?

Do you still baptize in Jesus name?

Why do I ask?

Because a good friend of mine believes and has been taught and often seems the case that once the door is open to leave the standards the next is the doctrine.

Where do you stand?

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I stand firm, still on the solid rock.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I have heard that as long as I can remember, that when one drops 'standards', they lose doctrine as well.

I don't believe it.

Just because somebody knows somebody who doesn't believe the doctrine any longer, it's because the wife cuts her hair or the dude wears shorts when he cuts the grass.

That's generalizing, and it's not fair to the zillions of folks who still believe in Oneness and Jesus Name baptism.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Quit following standards 20 yrs ago.

Still believe Acts 2:38, oneness, baptism in Jesus Name.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I still stand for truth and I still believe the doctrine despite my dropping of the outward standards...I've also found it's a whole lot harder living for the Lord because now I don't have my "guidebook of rules" to go by :D!! No seriously, I mean no disrespect..but for me, now I actually have to "know" the voice of God when it is speaking to me and I have to have the courage to stand for what I feel is right and/or wrong. I still hold to some of the outward standards such as no pierced ears and that's a conviction! I believe the doctrine with all of my being...that for me had nothing to do with my outward standards, so I had no desire to drop the doctrine!

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

It might be good to define what you mean by doctrine. If by it you mean that one believe the ONLY proper response to the gospel, and the ONLY way to be saved, is by obeying in completion Acts 2:38, then I think you will find only a few that continue to hold for any length of time. But then again some had standards before and never believed this way prior (PCI).

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I know many, some family members, that believe that if you let up on one thing then, before you know it, fat meat will no longer be greasy. I still believe that Acts 2:38 is essential just like all the rest of the Bible. I just do not believe that all the 'outward holiness' that I was taught is essential to salvation.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

First, a few sentences on my background: I was raised until about age 7 in a UPC church (until about 1953). Our pastor left UPC around that time. In 1959 I received the Holy Ghost in a Pentecostal Church of God at age 12. At age 16 I returned to a UPC church then went to a UPC college graduating in 1969. I pastored and evangelized in the UPC until I left the UPC in 1981. This basic outline may help you see where I am coming from.

When I quit requiring others, and myself, to live by the standards that I never did really believe, and fellowship with other believers that I never really did believe had not been saved because they didn't get it the way I did, a whole new world opened up to me.

To answer the questions:
- Yes I still believe in the oneness. My statement on this issue is that There is but one God and He is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- I still baptize in Jesus name, but with a twist that most apostolics do not understand. Because it is recorded that Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I baptize using these words: "Upon the confession of your faith in Jesus the Christ as your savior and upon the command of Christ, In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I now baptize you into the Lord Jesus Christ." (Incidently, I am on staff of a Charismatic church and when the senior pastor found out how I baptize he decided that everyone will be baptized that way and now I do most of the baptizing in our church).

Here are some observations:
- Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods and they all believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.
- They do not hate oneness folks because of their doctrine, they are offended at their attitude toward other believers.
- Trinitarian believers teach that we are baptized into Christ, not the godhead and Christian baptism represtents that.
- Is Acts 2:38 essential? Yes it is; but the way many apply it is not.
- Many in the "apostolic" churches live in compromise because they are afraid to express what they really believe for fear of being put down or being thought of as "a compromiser." Isn't it ironic that people will compromise their true feelings to keep from being called a compromiser
- Fear is a great tool in keeping people from going forward in their understanding of God and the body of Christ.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

no, yes, yes, I believe in baptism in Jesus' name.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Unfortunately, that's typical. People think just because you reevaluate a certain aspect of religion, you're going to forsake the critical doctrine as well (Acts 2:38, Oneness).

My Pastor believes the same thing, that if you leave one aspect of your beliefs, you're going to eventually abandon them all.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Thank you for responding.

I am glad to hear many of you have not left the doctrine for salvation.

Although I do adhear to the standards, I do NOT believe they are essential to salvation. But as long as God has me going to a UPC I will adhear to their teachings, unless it gets way out there no longer following God.

I do not have a problem with any organization having standards they want to establish boundaries for their organization.

For me personally, I can not teach these standards as salvation. For I have found no proof of them being so.

I would teach prinicipals. You must be modest. Although that opens another can of worms, I do believe must would agree that a woman exposing her breast would not be modest, nor do I believe anyone could say wearing Daisy Duke shorts would be modest.

So I do believe everyone has a line that they can draw saying this is not modest.

Although wearing one pair of earings is not in my book excessive, I do believe wearing multiple ones would be.

Wearing all black, nail polish, lipstick, etc. to me can not even be described as looking anything but occultish. (if that is a word). But wearing colored nail polish and colored lipstick to ME in no way looks like a prostitute. But when you add the red lipstick, red nail polish, Daisy Duke's, and exposing most of the flesh does make you look like a prostitute, to me.

This is wear I think you need to shun the very appearance of looking evil, which is how the movies dress those they want to look evil, in all black. Many of the young people are doing that today and I do believe many want to achive that look.

I have found NO scripture to say you can not color your hair or your nails. Not sure what scripture anyone has ever used to support that teaching????

Maybe someone here knows what scripture they use for this and can share.

But for me the main thing is to keep the main thing, and that is the doctrine. AND you must have a LOVE for the TRUTH. Truth of what the Word says, not man's.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I appreciate your attitude sister.

Standards became an issue to me when I began to see new believers come into our congregation and saw the effect of being pressured by the old saints to conform to their standards.

When I began to compare the spirit and attitude of the "old line saints" with the spirit and attitude of the "new saints" I decided that I didn't want the believers to adopt the same attitude as the old folks, so I didn't require them to change except where there was actual instruction from scripture.

This openness finally led to me being invited to leave the organization. I did and I haven't looked back.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

[QUOTE]Doesn't matter whether you believe them or not but are they based on principle teaching. I know many people that believe this and that and think you are free to do whatever you want but are in error. Worlds do open up, right or wrong when you go looking. A whole new world opened up to Adam and Eve too, in error.

Wow, don't jump off the unity bridge statement.

[Obviously you don't! Basically you have no conviction on what the whole of the Bible says and have compromised truth for error. I bet a whole world opened up to you. Next just believe all spokes lead to hub and it will get even bigger. Then you might go on Oprah! Also IMO Matt 28:19 is a fraud and the Catholic church even admits it's not even original but that is for another discussion but way to play both sides. Your statements negate by who's power and authority by mumbo jumbo to where it looks like you say in Jesus name but you don't as you said "into" the Lord Jesus Christ and not the Name but in the "name" of F,S,HS. Will it matter? THat's up to God but you don't know and I don't either but it's not correct and error.

Who? People with little theological background who believe in one God and call it a Trinity or educated seasoned teachers. When it comes to the educated your wrong! Claiming one thing and the theological facts are another. Trinitarians are good at switching ships in thought to say one thing but the logical conclusion is another.

Seriously that is pathetic. Sure not everyone hates but have you ever heard the venom spewed by them. Way to put everything on "us" as if we are the ones who murdered left and right to defend the Trinity throughout history. False doctrine always hates truth. Truth cuts and nobody likes to be cut. Either you lack experience in this area in witnessing to both sides of the distinction of regular Joe and theologian or simply limited to who you have talked and studied.

Way to get general for acceptance and attempt to confuse the issue. Most teach that happens before baptism at repentance in evangelical churches.

Again general.

Isn't this true of any "group"? How about the churches that teach if you teach anything your a legalist that are popping up left and right....

Define and be more specific. I know baptist churches that are just as bad as some so called "legalist" churches. People trying to define what is right and and what is not is NORMAL! It's called principle teaching and application! GUESS WHAT WE ALL DO IT! We do it to our children and anybody else that listens to us complain about XYZ. Some to different levels than others. Sure some go over board to you but to others not so much. Depends on your view.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I'm not sure of your point in this post except that it appears that you are making an attempt to tear apart my position based upon your particular logical bent. I accept that and I will let others decide on the spirit of your post.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

HopePreacher, thank you for your thoughtful posts and humble spirit.

LUKE2447, when I stand before the throne, you won't be sitting on it. Thanks for bringing absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Well, for me, yes, I left the doctrine of needing to be baptized with the name of Jesus spoken over you and needing to speak with tongues for salvation. But, people need to remember that this was not even believed by all in the beginning of the movement. Also, some leave and still retain the 3-step doctrine.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

When did I say that I would judge you on the throne or anyone else. Seems people choose to cry the judgment card around here when they do choose. I called out what I see a post that lacks perspective of who does what and HIS pointing of the finger. You probably are in teh same boat with him so you are more inclined to his position. Which is the result of your post and his the result of mine.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Wow, imagine that. Someone disagreed with your reasoning and questioned it according to another position you don't hold. Never seen that on a discussion board.

Really don't care what others decide as my posting is not based popularity and whether I get a good rating or not. The Spirit of my post is questioning your thought process. Seems we all do that as error is error no matter who spews it.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Logical, readable, and non judgmental.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Baron since when is calling error not judgmental? LOL!

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I left the doctrine prior to leaving the standards. But that was because I didn't want to offend anyone around me who might still be holding to the standards. However, I stopped believing in the standards long long ago. Even back at the UPC it was acceptable to debate standards as long as we didn't touch the three-step doctrine.

For a long time I believed that we were saved at repentance and that we should strongly encourage new converts to seek after the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence in speaking in other tongues. I felt that "faith" wasn't enough and there had to be an outward sign that people had experienced God. I was still so caught up in the Pentecostal culture that I had a hard time letting it go. I didn't leave the UPC because I hated it I just couldn't teach people something I didn't believe anymore.

After leaving the UPC I started to admit that I wasn't really into the tongues stuff that much and not sure if I had ever really spoken in tongues. Some on this forum might remember my struggles early on because I couldn't have the pentecostal experience that I was taught was so important. However, only after finally admitting that I had never spoken in tongues and allowing myself to rest in the grace of Christ did I finally come to the understanding that I don't need tongues in order to follow Christ and if he wants me to speak in tongues he will give me that gift. I still seek after his presence and in prayer I feel the power of the Holy Ghost but I don't feel this need to speak in tongues anymore. I am not against speaking in tongues I just feel like I have the freedom to pray without trying to speak in tongues.

I guess I was so used to a church service where it wasn't church unless folks were speaking in tongues and falling out and all that. So, even though I didn't believe it anymore it was hard to leave what I had always loved and known.

Though I have left standards I am still a pretty conservative person. I love God and his word. I love following after his commands and allowing God to use my life for his glory. I feel like I have finally been born again and I know the hand of God is on me as I see the radical change in my life since leaving the "apostolic" doctrine.

Additionally, I feel like the "acts 2:38/three-step/Apostolic" doctrine was a great hindrance in my life and actually kept me from fully understanding God and possibly from even being born again. I don't think I was lost but I know that my true born again experience happened sometime after leaving the UPC church.

So, yes, I have left the standards and doctrine.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Yes
Yes

Seems we go through cycles of these questions, huh?

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

In my own mind I can see where I have indeed departed from the strict interpretation of "Acts 2:38 or hell". That departure did not take place until I questioned "the standards" I was being taught and complying with while stationed in NC.

I will point out a few things.


I was raised in a strict Apostolic home, but my folks were NOT strict on outward standards as much as they were on behavioral conduct.

Leaving the strict interpretation of Acts 2:38 never was a thought until I was in what I will call a very legalistic UPC environment-- not all UPCI churches are like what I experienced. Nevertheless I experienced it, I'm getting over it.


I am actually in a place recently where I thinking about voluntarilly taking up some previous standards that I once felt compelled to follow.

But I am very hesitant to start back down this road (again) because I know how it ended last time.




If people did not lump the strict Acts 2:38 doctrine with standards, then folks would not equate the 2.

There are plenty of Apostolics (non-UPCI) who are very strict on the Acts 2:38 doctrine but "loose" on standards.

Sadly, many folks here, many UPCI folks that I know, would not and do not even consider them saved.


Go figure....

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I would say 99% do leave the necessity of the doctrine. Just look on here.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

We agree. :thumbsup

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Do you think it is "leaving the doctrine" as much as it is finally being able to become honest with themselves as well as others about how they truly feel and what they truly believe? (I am one of the "they" i'm referring to)

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Actually, according to the post here most have not left the doctrine of Acts 2:28, but the standards of outward appearance.

A few have left both it seems.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

it's a mixed bag. Just like any other group or sect in Christianity as flesh is flesh no matter the belief system. In the end I hope everyone makes it and could careless if I am right or wrong. Though I don't agree with it, I wish Universalism was true and in the end we all make it for his glory. Then again I wish a lot of things!

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

You make my heart hurt and my head ache.....almost make me wish I believed in cussing!

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I still believe in Jesus name baptism and being filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues but haven't followed the outward appearance standards in years. I also don't drink, smoke, chew or have tattoos thank the lord. I don't believe in low necklines or short shorts. In fact, I very rarely wear shorts. I was brought up to do all things in moderation. I was brought up in the UPC but my parents allowed me to wear slacks if I wanted to. I've never been one to wear much makeup though, it just never looks right when I do it. I agree with the statement made earlier that black lipstick and nail polish looks like something out of the occult and I don't know why anyone that calls themself a child of God would want to look like that! But that's my opinion.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I must be in the %1 that doesn't believe in ACT 2:38 AS IT IS USUALLY INTERPRETED. Basically I'm a 1-stepper and ditching the standards as heaven/or/hell issues was instrumental in seeing how the 3-step process for salvation is essentially the same thing.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I read, and largely agree with your post-at least the spirit of your post (not all of your opinions). However, I certainly do think using such baptismal formula is a compromise catch all. Why not throw in the name "YHWH" to make the sacred name people happy also?

After reading that, I wasn't suprised to read the next part:

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

That's not true -- Trinitarians believer our doctrine of the godhead to be heretical plain and simple. I've interacted with some pretty well-known Trinitarian scholars on this, and all agree its heretical. Some are given a little credence because we still believe in Christ's deity, but most by and far think Oneness theology is a joke in light of Orthodox teachings.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

Thanks for your anecdotal evidence, I have some too and mine is the exact opposite. I have had interaction with a lot of Trinitarians scholars while taking classes in Theology at Regent, and not one of them expressed the idea it was heretical. I have also worked with Trinitarians within their ministry some for several years and even held teaching position within their churches and NEVER had that response. Certainly there are those out there that are ALWAYS right and anything they disagree with is heretical.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I'm as oneness as the day is long! Even Epley agrees with that.....and that's saying something. I will ALWAYS baptize in Jesus' name and I preach that sin is sin! Hardly ever talk about the outward. I've found that if I focus on the inward, the rest takes care of itself. I've also found that no matter where you draw the line, people will cross it. In other words, you can't make anyone live holy or righteous. So.....I just try to stick with the Bible, be a servant and let God deal with His children. :D

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I've also found the opposite when the oneness is presented in the right way. Too often oneness folks start out with why Trinitarianism is wrong, blasphemy and every one who believes it is hell bound. I have taught entire groups of trinitarians (even doctoral candidates) and not had any of them have a problem with oneness teaching. It's all in the presentation and attitude. The vast majority of oneness preachers should be ashamed of themselves for their exclusive, arrogant attitude toward those who are following all they have ever known. WE are the ones who are supposed to be the bridge builders if we have the truth not them. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it! :D

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I agree with you MOW, but the question is have you left the doctrine>

I think that menas the 3 step or hell doctrine of the UPC and other orgs'

Yes is my answer. i have left the doctrine that teaches ALL but us OP will burn in hell.

A doctruine that declares that if you have not spoke in tongues you are lost.

a doctrine that declares that even if you speak in tongues and are not baptised in the method and mode we proclaim to be the only mode recognized by God that will burn in hell....Yes, Thank God I have been delivered from that doctrine.

Do I believe in one God? Yes Do I baptize in Jesus name? Yes

Do I think someone has to jiggle your jaw and twirl you round and round till you speak in tongues to be saved???? Nope !!

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I'm with you.

Re: Do you still believe the doctrine after leavin
 

I didn't know I needed footnotes and AP citations to make a claim that is quite obvious. There are some charismatic churches that use people if they aren't even saved, so it wouldn't surprise me that that are some that use people, even if they are a Modalist. But, by and far, fundamentalists, scholars, teachers and prominent leaders within Trinitarian circles see Modalism as a great heresy. It sounds like you've encountered for tolerant people in your studies and ministry. My experience has been opposite, and any Trinitarian's position papers would support that.