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Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!
After our early morning walk on the track a couple of mornings ago. I asked
my husband of almost 50 yrs what are standards for. He told me that every- thing has a standard. Time, clocks are set to a standard. Gold has a standard. He told me that when the standard of anything is lowered, it loses value. To lower standards is to lower the quality. When the stock market is down, and the value is lowered, everyone wants to buy because they can buy it cheap. But when the market is up, people want to sell because the value is high. If lowering the standards causes the quality to be lowered, and value to be lost, why on earth would anyone desire to lower their standards. Moses set the bounds for the mountain. My father and mother together set some standards of what they wanted their home to be. They set high standards. Some through the years have thought they set them too high. Guys in high school thought my dad was too strict because they couldn't date me. Their standards didn't measure up to our family values or worth that my parents had placed on their family. When we started to school, we already knew the standards set for OUR family and home. No one was to touch our family values. They were ours and they were precious for the safety and protection of our home. All 11 of we siblings graduated, some with honors, all with respect, because of the high value system put in place by our parents. They relied on their God to help them raise their family in the fear and admonition of the LORD! In 1958, when Dad took the family alter to a small storefront building just off main street, the standards didn't change. For over 30 yrs. he preached a high standard to those who chose to come and listen. Today our family and extended family are highly respected and the memory of our parents are revered in the hearts and minds of the people of our city. As we became young adults, of course we had the choice to set the standard for our own homes and families. For the life of me, I cannot perceive WHY anyone would want to lower the standard in their homes and families, and churches. To lower the value and quality of something SO dear. Many people do not respect those who lower their standards, quality and value. Just some thoughts as there has been a lot of discussion on the subject of standards. Why would anyone want to "drop" the standards. especially if good strong values were instilled from the beginning with godly parents. Jesus is the Standard God set for the Family of God. His Son was the standard set for His Family. HIGH and LIFTED UP, SHINING IN THE LIGHT OF HIS GLORY!!! As always, my words are not to offend, but to provoke thought. Falla39 |
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The more rules, the better?
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As always, Sis Falla- Great post!! :)
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Very good post! I think the controversy lies not in the true definition of standards, but in the buzzword that our organizations use to describe something much more superficial. Regarding true standards of living, I completely agree with your post.
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Just another thought; Is it not true! (never to offend)
You know, when a manufacturer lowers the standards, they call the product "seconds". |
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True standards are not the same as a list of rules for people to live by. As far as true standards of living based on biblical principles.... I have more in my life today than I ever had... in fact, true holiness comes from a heart of love for the Lord. :heart |
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I will never change my standards. I may, however, let go of some rules that others have imposed upon me. Especially if they are the opposite of productive in my life.
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Lovely post sister. I was deeply moved and can sincerely see the loving spirit with which you submitted it. But I do want to share my thoughts as a 33 year old man who has only walked with the Lord 20 years. I think the "fuss over standards" comes from our being able to read God's Word for ourselves. For example, my previous pastor taught us that if we had facial hair we'd go to Hell. I remember crying my eyes out at the alter feeling like something was deeply wrong with me because I thought some facial hair looked good and in my heart, as a baby faced young man, I wanted facial hair because I thought it would make me look more masculine. I was horrified that my feelings for something so sinful indicated a deeper problem and it left me weeping at the altar more than once. All of us young men were dangled over Hell because our pastor didn't believe in facial hair. Yet when I was on the minister's team and I was searching my heart and searching the Scriptures to find where I stood regarding standards... I found no such standard in the Bible. It was a tradition of man. I spent time weeping over my desire for facial hair and failed to address some of the deeper issues lingering in my own heart. I was being distracted by the superficial, majoring in minors, and was failing to really "grow in God". I made a comprehensive list of all the standards I had been taught, standards I believed I would preach as a preacher and decided to find Scripture for them all. Because if I was going to preach... I had to know in my heart that I was preaching the Word of God not just my elder's, elder's opinion. I found that the vast majority of our standards, regarded emphatically as Heaven or Hell issues (I attended an ultra conservative UPCI church) were not necessarily in the Scriptures. I was shaken to the core when I realized that all I had to preach about were man made standards and opinions passed down from two generations back. I realized that my enemy wasn't necessarily sin (Christ dealt with sin on the cross) but it was the poison of Pharisaical religiosity... the very same enemy Christ faced more than once. I think that as people search the Scriptures with commentary and resources becoming ever so plentiful via software and the internet people are discovering how so many of our standards aren't explicit commands of Scripture. Those who study the Scriptures independently without a denominational/organizational filter are typically the one's voicing their dismay at some of our standards. Those who proudly wave the banner of a denomination or organization rally around said standard in the name of preserving the way as filtered and defined by their denomination or organization. In a way it's sad because so many elders and old timers who bought into the traditional standards lock, stock, and barrel are watching their standards be abandoned. But in a way it's also a blessing because we see more and more of us turning to the Scriptures alone to define our faith and practices. In a way... being sold out to human standards lowers the value of our Christian walk... because our walk is based on the rules of man... not necessarily the Word of God. I loved the story you presented. It was very warm and heartfelt. I felt a tinge of guilt for some of the standards that I've abandoned because I couldn't find them in the Word of God. But then I notice something about this story.... it contained no Scripture. It was an emotionally driven statement, powerful, and provoking... but it doesn't address the crux of the problem... so many of our traditional standards aren't Scriptural. From standards on facial hair, the belief in magic hair, absolutely not jewelry (not even wedding bands), to no television, radio, or internet. None of these things are commanded in Scripture. We were taught that if we had a question... "find it in the Bible"... well... now we're reading the Bible and some things we just ain't findin'. Of course we're on dangerous territory. When believers started reading the Bible in previous centuries the Catholic Church decided to ban the private reading of Scripture without the proper interpretation from their established religious authorities and chained the Bible to the pulpit in a dead tongue, Latin. Thank God we live in America. |
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Great post, Aquila.
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Great post both Falla and Aquila.
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Falla I understand your post and know your intent and motives are right. You are a blessing to us all.
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Aquila has been busy posting the last few days... I think he is making sense on purpose - just to trip us up!
:) |
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But we must have standards of living from God's heart in this world. And our example is Jesus. |
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POTD Aquila.
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There is SO much more to "standards" than just what we wear. There is honesty and
integrity, principals, how we treat and respect people. Standards involve every area of our lives. There are moral standards, standards of the heart, etc. We need the Spirit of the Living God to lead and guide us continually. IF we look to man for our direction, we will get man's ideas. If we look to the Word of God and depend on His Spirit and walk in, and are led by the Spirit of Almighty God, we won't have to find out too soon, too late that we have been deceived. If we know what thus saith the Word of God, and have the Holy Spirit to illuminate and open our understanding we won't be disappointed. We were pointed to the Word of God all our lives. The Word of God was promoted big time in our home and the church our late parents pastored. My husband and I will celebrate our 50th Wedding Anniv. on July 11th. We both received the Holy Ghost the summer of 1958. Dad opened the doors of the storefront church he, with his wife and eleven children, founded, Nov.12, 1958, We married the following July 11th, 1959. We have never left. Five of our six children and 16 of our 20 grandchildren still go to the church my late parents founded. The other son and wife, with their four children, go to an apostolic church in a neighboring city where they live. All of our adult children are married to their original spouses. The youngest has been married 12 yrs., the eldest has been married 27 yrs. and all in between. Our middle daughter and husband who pastor the church now, was married 18 yrs. ago yesterday. God has been good to our family. Those good family values and all that goes with it, has surely paid off with huge dividends. No, our lives have not all been easy. We have had our trials and stuggles, but God has been with us, by His Spirit from the beginning until now and we have no doubt that HE will be with us all the way! He said HE would be our guide, even until death. Psalms 48:15 Just giving God some Praise for all HE has done, doing and will continue to do, in Jesus Name! Blessings, Falla39 |
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Your a blessing Sister Falla and your wisdom in living for God is just more than most can comprehend. Thank God for you and thank you for your standards and the example of what His light in us is capable of .
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My dear sister, you are absolutely right, it is and was those "standards of the heart" that build strength into our family. Mom and Daddy required these standards of their children, honesty and respect of those around us. I remember one of us sassing a neighbor, and Dad requiring a face to face apology to that neighbor. These things of character are honorable and make us respected by our community, and by the grace of God I see them in my own adult children. As for balance, I will also acknowledge that there were some "standards" that were passed from the preacher that brought the "message" to our parents community that our parents eventually discarded. I know some folks that continued with those extreme "standards" that have wrecked lives because of the control and lack of freedom in Christ. Our parents found more balance but still maintained some fairly conservative standards, but not nearly as rigid as their first exposure to Pentecost. I believe those earlier extremes were false standards and discarding them in no way devalued our parents lives. I also know of many who maintain even the less rigid standards, yet lack the "things of the heart" and their lives are just as wrecked. My point is: It is those things of the heart that made the difference in our family, so I have to believe it is those standards to which you are referring. And from that perspective I totally embrace and agree with all that you have presented. |
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Sis. Falla,
Things like honesty and integrity, principals, how we treat and respect people, etc. are commandments and teachings directly addressed in Scripture. No one challenges "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." No one challenges "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself." The only "fuss" is in relation to those outward standards that are not Scriptural. In fact the notion that these clear teachings of Scripture are regarded as "standards" and not "teachings" or "commandments" is a bit unsettling. We cannot confuse the the two. |
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I "fuss" about them because of all the unnecessary bitterness caused by extra-biblical "standards" that people have created.
People already have enough trials in life to have someone else had "sleeve length" or some rule involving sports made into a heaven or hell issue. These things are often the straws that break the backs of those who may have STAYED in the church had it not been for the added pressure. |
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"Fuss" in the title of my thread was in regard to all the recent threads that were started on the subject of "standards". And when it all said and done, "fussed" and discussed, etc. on what is bibical or non-Bibical, there is still those things that the Holy Ghost teaches. The truth was hidden from the wise (in their own eyes) and prudent and revealed to babes(open, honest). God sees the heart of man and knows the thoughts and intent of what's in there. He knows the motives He sees there. The words we speak come directly from our heart/mind. And from the abundance of the heart that mouth is going to reveal what is in it, good or bad. No offense intended. Falla39 John 14:26, 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 1 Cor.2:13, 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. |
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I believe this is the best post I have ever read on here regarding this issue!! |
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RandyWayne, I really do like you and am not picking on you at all. Dear Brother, if things like "sleeve length" and some rule involving sports are causing anyone to be bitter, something is wrong somewhere. With divorce rates high and soaring high, kids on drugs, committing suicide, and getting invoved in crime, etc. and we major on things you mentioned. The enemy had MAGNIFIED the minors and de-valued the major. Now why would the enemy do that. I'll tell you why! To bring confusion and God is not the author of confusion. If people would get on their knees and pray about things instead of getting them inside and letting them fester and infect the whole body, which could bring death, spiritual or otherwise, there would be more victory in homes and churches. Seek the LORD about everything!! The HOLY GHOST is there to lead and guide. I do not depend on any person to give me the answers that are important to me. I take my "case", whatever it may be to the, to the highest court. TO THE FINAL AUTHORITY! I have never found a problem HE could not solve or a question He could not answer! HE IS THE KING!!! Blessings, Brother RandyWayne! Falla39 |
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I don't believe it is a matter of someone getting "bitter" over sleeve length. I think it is a matter of getting focused on the wrong thing. There is no bible to support many of the traditional UPC standards so to teach them as a heaven or hell issue to me is false doctrine. I don't hold many of the traditional standards and I am by no means bitter at anyone that still holds them or those that taught them to me-I respect their opinions and if I am around them I dress in a way so that I will not offend but in most cases I don't believe the respect goes both ways - but oh well - I don't have to answer for anyone but myself.
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I just remembered a lesson I was taught in a Leadership class at my company...it is called Motivating Principles and it goes like this:
1. You can not motivate other people 2. All people are motivated 3. People are motivated for their reasons, not yours 4. A strength over used, can become a weakness 5. If I know more about you than you do me, then I can control the communication 6. If I know more about you than you do yourself, I can control you I realize that the above is not Biblical, and it can be argued from more then one side - still, the point I am trying to bring across is MOTIVATION. I believe our motives, or the motives of those who are in leadership over us must be weighed in the balence, especially concerning things like standards, which as we have seen on this forum are highly debated. At the end of the day, if there is a question....ask. If there is a problem....communicate. I know there are many folks with many persuasions concerning standards of outward appearence, and even recreational activities. I also am perceptive enough to know that sometimes folks like to skirt around issues in an attempt to flank the original intent. Anotherwards, its almost like reverse physcology. We can do the end a round to come back to the main point - wheather that is for or against certain things...in this case, standards and the fuss thereof. Is it possible for a pastor or leader to really care for your soul, but be misled at the same time...sure - but what is their motive? i would suspect to get to the bottom of a question in any of our minds it will take open and honest communication...not just implication. Sis. Falla is right when she makes reference to finding the will of God for herself. We need to walk in the Spirit, and be led of the Spirit. We need to also look at our own motives for why we do or are about to do a thing. There are invariably two sides to this coin - let us just remember to love one another, and not judge, lest we be judged by the same measure. Love you all!! |
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Beautifully put, Sis Falla. This post sounds so much like something my dear Grandmother would have said. Sinatra |
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It becomes all about outward. And sadley in many places the outward is the only thing preached. Most of the biggest standards not preached or argued about are the moral and standards of the heart. Even many of the outward ones, though not directly biblical, have nothing wrong with them. If a pastor, watching for peoples souls holds a higher standard of modesty than what the world considers modest, what of it? It has never caused me pain, embarrassment or mental anguish to never wear shorts or a t-shirt in public. It didn't traumatize me when the preacher preached "don't go to the movie theater". I don't even think about those things because I have walked in this way long enough that it is just my nature to do stuff that others seem so up in arms over. There is nothing in the Bible about smoking cigars either, so one could say that is a preacher preaches against smoking a cigar, he is making an extra-biblical rule. Even though a number of years have past since your upbringing it hasn't vanished from the earth. Having higher standards is a good thing and has benefited my household tremendously and I am blessed. My wife is loved where ever she goes because of her kindness and generosity, the folks she works with know where her lines are drawn and don't violate them, not because she might haul off and hit them with a holy stick, but because the love and respect her. They can count on her. My 18 year old daughter is still pure, liked and respected by her peers and teachers alike, loved by the young people in church that she is an example for. And, me. Well I am just me. Nobody likes me...:D I wouldn't trade all that just for the ability to wear a speedo at the beach, or any other so-called "liberty" that is available. I place value on what we have and will keep it no matter who does what. I appreciate your testimony and fine example you have set with your life! For the Benefit of others let me big an bold here: I am talking about much more than clothes, I don't even see the whole shorts-no movie theater thing as even being a standard, just a thing I do that I don't hold anybody else too. |
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This leaves many of us with the very difficult decision of having to pull up roots and change churches to be allowed to have a little freedom to follow our own principles, and not the principles of people who lived 50 years ago and set the rules. It's fine and dandy to say "I love the standards, what's the big deal"... but what about those of us who DON'T love them? What about my son who lay crying on my bed because he wants to wear short sleeves (and I mean above-the-elbow, people, not tank tops!)? Quote:
My kids went to a youth conference recently.... a huge building FULL of youth. Three sermons - three sermons about standards. No joke. That is ALL that was preached. Splits, short sleeves, short skirts, nail polish..... yadda yadda yadda. I was so frustrated I could have cried. A whole building full of youth, in a very precarious time of their lives, and you can't use this time to truly draw them closer to the heart of God? Some of you truly don't understand what a huge issue this "standards" thing is in some circles. I think it breaks the heart of God. |
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Every man is responsible for his own house. You are responsible for what you teach your children. Not anyone else. You are responsible to GOD for what you have sown and birthed. My dad took that responsibility more seriously than any man I have ever known. He never felt adequete to do it alone, always seeking the face of his MAKER, through the leading of the Holy Ghost he received at age 15 yrs. He learned to go to His God before he married, looked to God for a wife, and when their children (11) came along. He did the same when he was inducted into the U.S. Army and was sent overseas, leaving behind a young wife and four children under 7 yrs old. He learned to trust his God on the front lines of battle in WWII, not willing to carry a weapon, but chose to carry two medical bags instead, to treat the wounded and help carry the dead off the front lines of battle..! He came home and raised eleven children, seven sons and four daughters, raising them in the fear and admonition of his GOD. Founded a church, put eleven children through high school and most have had some additional education, etc. Pastored while working a full time job, in order to support his large family. Never shirked his responsibility in providing his family, with both physical and spiritual needs. He took his questions to God in prayer in a back bedroom where he would come out with red rimmed eyes where he knew he could find answers for any situation in regard to his family or church. There is SO much I could say about this man we called "Daddy". I probably should have started a "Fathers Day" thread instead of posting this here. But I didn't....! Yes, the standards (measure of excellence) for everything we are today, started in our home. Dad didn't buy everything someone said. He found his answers elsewhere. I am my father's daughter. The only reason I am on this forum in just maybe,... I can help someone along life's way and my living will not have been in vain! Hugs, Falla39 |
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For one, though I have no problem with the standard standards, it is the PASTOR'S job to teach, and even he needs to do that with wisdom and gentle leading, not with a pulpit hammer. And not based on his personal likes or dislikes of red clothes and etc...Not the job of a conference preacher. And we wonder why so many do grow up and bail from the movement the minute they can. There is a difference between having (and even preaching) standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment. Seen too many places where a man of God can preach about the victory we have in Jesus and the power of the cross and people sit like moss on a log. Then the first time someone mentions television or lipstick they shake the walls... |
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This is so true that it just brought tears to my eyes. :( I was just thinking about this yesterday... my kids have NO problem - or at least no resentment - over rules that my husband and I set for them. They may disagree with us, but they respect us and know that we love them and have their best interests at heart. We have a good relationship with them, and they don't resent us even if they disagree. But the things that we don't allow them to do just because it's a 'church rule'. THOSE things they resent, strongly. And they start equating church with God, and yes, it starts turning their hearts away from God. This is killing me right now, and I have to find answers! Quote:
Amen! You want to get a crowd on their feet screaming, just start preaching standards. Or preach a "gotcha" style message. People love it when other people are being nailed. Preach about love, having character, giving to the poor... you can hear a pin drop sometimes. |
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And with Him as guide there is no need for us to be "fussing" with one another about standards. She is not trying to impose her standards, on anyone else, only challenging each of us to turn to God and to follow Him. John, I disagree that it is the pastor's job to teach folks how to dress, if he will teach folks to seek after God, as Falla has encouraged, the Spirit and the word will set the standards. And you were agreeing with her point. Sis. Falla can correct me if I have missed her point. |
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I did amend my post to say "not the pastor's personal likes and dislikes concerning red clothes and etc." I was agreeing with her point. We have this misunderstand each other thing going. I will try and be more clear. |
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I mentioned in another post on another thread some time back, that IF we do not
teach our children what we want them to know, someone else will teach them some- thing we do not want them to know. We must take the responibility of our own. Pastors have families too. I do not believe that God meant for any father or mother to turn THEIR over to someone else to "feed" provide for, or otherwise. Every man shall bear his OWN burden. And if we don't like what a restaurant serves up, we usually go elsewhere for a while and if we don't like or get tired of that eating place, we leave there too. Well, why not go home and fix what you and your family like. Then eat at home! It's better for you and is probably safer and cleaner. FEED your kids before they go elsewhere and they will know what good food really is. And if you don't trust the ones who will be feeding them, keep them at HOME!! Why don't we that don't like what the schools and churches do, DO it yourself, at HOME. Who wants someone else over on their place, digging in your garden. Digging around your plants, etc. Taking liberties that are not their liberty. No, most should take pride in what they planted and they should want to take care of it themselves so when the "fruit" of their labour comes to fruition, they can take pleasure in what their labor brought forth. Homeschool. Family Alter, Bible studies at HOME!! If we don't take the res- ponsible for our children, who will. God set a plan that was workable. Many do not like that plan today. Man work by the sweat of his brow! Sounds like God intended man to work hard to provide for his "garden". And the woman would bear children in travail and labor. If she goes the natural way, she will go through labor, equal to, and more than a sweating man. She will sweat most likely sweat too. This is not to offend but to provoke thought! It is not personally directed at any one person. Falla39 |
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But.... Good post! :) |
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Dad never looked to the government to provide for his family.
Dad never looked to the schools, etc. to provide for his children's spiritual learning. Dad never looked to anyone else to feed his family. (not one dime of welfare money was spent on his family). He provided with the provision his GOD provided. You never saw many "skinny" Blakey children. LOL! Dad never saw a need his GOD could not meet!!! I am what I am today because of my God and my earthly father. If he is somewhere in the grandstands of heaven, viewing my posts, he well knows I am so thankful for my God and His son, my father. Falla39 1 John 3:1-3, 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. |
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