The Times...They are a-Changin'
 

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs... :D

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

Re: The Times...They are a-Changin'
 

Carp,
thanks for sharing some stirrings from your experiences.

As one whose primary experience of 'not forsaking the assembly' is "house-to-house", AND as one who believes the most effective and transparent spiritual ministry occurs when unity of purpose is manifested as 2 or 3 are gathered together in the authority of our Lord and savoiur, I found a certain joyous witness in reading your assessments.

Most Central Delivery Systems 'CDLs' do an admirable job of conveying information to a group, but the same delivery approach struggles to foster intimate relationship that is purposed between the individual creature and the creator.

IMO, there is a general propensity to be snared in the same manner that the Galatians were, to begin a journey with the receipt of the Spirit as a gift, and then revert back to trying to be completed (perfected) by the means available within the carnal mind; the flesh.

Groups are a construct that can be fully discerned and managed by the carnal mind. Those who will follow the same one that Abraham was lead by will find very little validity in any man-club.

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Carpenter, methinks you are on to something.

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I do agree.

What those within the afore mentioned hierarchy will find the most troubling is their inability to stop the changes.

In fact, their very attempts to stop it will likely accelerate things.

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There are quite a few societal changes that are affecting the body of Christ today, not the least of which is the movement away from larger influence groups to samller support type groups.

It does seem that we are moving closer to the New Testament model of Acts 2:42 which seems to be that of going from house to house in fellowship, breaking bread, prayer and teaching.

With that being said there is also the herd instinct among us that enjoys the atmosphere of a large group. Examples are sports arenas, concert halls and megachurches.

The ideal church today may be one that holds small groups as a core value and a source for spiritual growth and maturity while offering the larger corporate meeting as a place of inspiration and celebration.

Those among us who still see "the church" as the Sunday morning Wednesday night crowd may face dwindling membership.

I am an old school aged 60 something warrior and I can tell you that the changes I have had to make inorder to be effective in the 21st century have not been easy, but some time ago I realized that I had to trim the vine of old ideas or the vine itself would die along with the old ideas.

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As quickly and as drastic as things are changing, I don't think there is something in the works where people won't want to consider themselves members of a church.

Rather, we will find the church that ministers to our needs-- a church that is relevant.

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I think you are on to something here.

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I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

So while your analysis is probably more right than it is wrong, it is not good. Just look at the "parents" of those who are under 30. They have no parenting skills, their kids are committing suicide at record numbers, on anti depressants, cutting themselves, joining gangs in record numbers, and having sex with everyone around including the same gender.

In my daughter's High School their were 80 pregnant girls. This all comes from some place...it's the theology of this group that you are talking about.

Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."

The worship of organization is not God's plan. But stability is. What I believe that you will see is that as Isaiah states (60:1-2) while gross darkness covers the world and people their will be a glorious church that arises. One that is committed, loves Jesus more than the world, whose focal point is like the fathers of the faith who are committed to getting God's work wrapped up.

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This is a great thread. Probably won't stay on page one long.

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nope......................................























































probably not!
:)

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Completely agree Carp!

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The post above is an ode to a dying day. It is not a dying day because the model is useless. It is a dying day because they shun and attack all those who have a different vision. Not a different message. Just a different method. Self inflicted attrition is a strong force and little can survive it's effect.

The problem is that too many... especially of the passing paradigm... feel that the method is as important as the message.

The method sheds it's skin from time to time. Probably once per generation. The method changes. The error is in seeing people in error for no longer agreeing with the previous method.

I am one of those who serves in the current model.

I hold offices. I am a preacher. I have been known to speak at camp meetings and fellowship meetings and will do so again.

I get behind that pulpit and I preach the message. I don't feel that many aspects of the method are the most effective for our day and hour but I don't see any profit or Godliness in using the pulpit to destroy what is now in place.

They don't know that I am "one of those". There are many of us who are "one of those". We long for and work toward a different day and yet serve with all our might in this present day. I will never fight the current model but I will be ready when the next model comes to life. I have been ready for years.

Why don't they know that I am one of those? Because those who are sold out to a paradigm judge us too quickly because our methods are different.

Because our tree is not planted in their orchard they say our tree is not planted.

Because our priorities outside the message itself differ from their own they see us as aloof and undedicated.

They are quick to judge us and make all manner of accusation against what they will never attempt to understand.

So I toil among them. Loving them. Ministering to the saints of their churches. And awaiting the day. Awaiting the inevitable day that this paradigm shift will occur in earnest. They don't know I am here because they would ridicule and ostracize if they knew my thoughts so I am content to serve them... and serve them well... as I await the day that God makes the change and I hope that, at that time, my God sees that I have been a faithful, non judgmental and patient servant of His Kingdom no matter the paradigm that I serve Him under.

In that day... some will be surprised at how quickly I became "one of them" because they never knew that I was one of them all the time. We are here. We are temporarily silent. And we are many.

We await the day that the dream God has placed within us because a reality. When God places a dream it will come to pass. One need only walk in patience and belief.

BTW... It is SO good to hear from you Carp.

Re: The Times...They are a-Changin'
 

I'm one of these too. I don't, currently, serve in the current model. I can't seem to find my place. I'm not necessary, and I shake the foundations that some hold so dear without having any intention of doing it. I'm fiercely loyal. I'd gladly serve in whatever capacity I was needed in. But I've found I'm not welcome in some places, for a multitude of reasons. So I just wait.

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I think this is true for so many people. I see it as a hopeful thing that so many serve and/or not serve with such patience and love toward those who refuse to show the same toward them.

It is building within us patience toward others and a spirit that is akin to our Christ.

On those foundations we can go far when the time is right.

Re: The Times...They are a-Changin'
 

I agree with you. The methods do change but the basics don't change. Commitment, loyalty, faithfulness, priority, cleanliness, holiness, sanctification, does not change.

The seeker sensitive church of today has changed the "method" but they also changed the "message" and the "basics" of Christianity. This is why there is such a weak church today.

Based on scripture it is through the foolishness of preaching that man is saved. You can't change that fact. You can change the delivery style, location, etc but fundamentals are fundamentals

Again I agree with you....ouch this post is hurting me :) Music is a prime example. It appears that with each new move of the Spirit a new type of music comes with it. Those that are unwilling to move with the Spirit get stuck in the past. I get that.

What I am against is this new theology that thinks the church has to get or mimic the world in order to be successful or reach a dying generation.

Bottom line is those who do not know Christ have a big gaping hole in their heart. It doesn't matter how good they look on the outside they are hurting and need the truth not some sissy religion. The church is not a petting zoo, it's a place where lives are CHANGED.

Again, I agree with you. Like the old saying the "Prophets of one move of God become the Pharisees of the next move." But this is not my point. My point is that human nature is not difficult to figure out. That's why the devil is so successful because we are all the same.

It's like in politics, people talk about how we have "progressed." We have progressed we are doing the same thing that has been done for centuries. It's just been repacked with new words to describe it.

Yup...this is very true in OP circles who think that trinitarians are not saved. They've planted the tree different so they are not planted even though they have done a big job in getting this gospel around the world

The bottom line is that God is in control and those who walk with God will see all that God is going to do. God's not "stuck" but there are many Christians who are stuck.

It is amazing that in the day and age we live in that the world knows what the "church" (building) is. They don't confuse it with the bar, the drug store, or the mall. When they get in trouble they know where to run. it is only the modern Christian who is trying to run from it and calling it a God thing.

The sinner who knows that their life needs "fixed", the mother who baby is dying, or the family whose marriage is falling apart doesn't want to run to some guys house down the street and have a Bible study. They run to the preacher who can help them.

We have many people in our town who go to other places to worship because they have all the entertainment or they don't have to give financially or it's convienant. But when they really need help they call us.

God's system works!

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And I propose that the ones who have, and do, live like this and don't claim a church or organization are refusing to align themselves with churches and organizations that will hold them in their past, in the rut they're already stuck in and working to get out of. Too many churches and congregations are ill prepared to move people from their past to their future.

And in what way is the church prepared to deal with people who are coming from a past that's not church based? I don't line up with anyone's idea of what a Christian should look like, but I'm not who I was.

I am like a tree planted. I don't exactly understand how or when that happened, nor do I understand exactly how I can still struggle, and fail, where I do and still be planted. But I do know that I am. I'm definitely not planted within any walls. Some have made it pretty clear I'm not welcome. I decided pretty early on that it's my problem and it's my responsibility to get to where I'm going. I don't claim a church, I don't claim an organization, because I can't risk falling with one of them or being crushed by one while it rises and I struggle to make the next rung of the ladder.

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That is a very broad brush you are using. With all due respect, it's simply ignorant to claim that those of my generation are all "typically unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives." simply because they don't view things the way you do. And frankly, it's this "back in my day..." mindset that is unproductive and obnoxious enough to make the change worthwhile :D. There is nothing inherently wrong with a people-based set of loyalites vs.an organization-based one. For instance, I have worked with the same people for nearly 20 years because of personal friendships and loyalties that outlasted many of the organizations of which we were a part. We have seen the abuse that comes from organizations both corporate and religious. And while structure can be good, every once in a while, you need to tear it all down and start over. Clean out the cobwebs and remind those in charge that they are only there because the people put them there.

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I'm not sure this is true. Not unless they were raised in church. Otherwise, the hurting person will reach out so someONE in their life who has demonstrated God's love to them. A person. They don't care if you offer them the help they need while they are sitting in your living room.


But what is God's system?

Re: The Times...They are a-Changin'
 

Exactly.

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I don't know, look at what happened on 9/11 I didn't hear of one house filling up with people because of the events that took place.

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You added the word "all" not me. What would be ignorant is to be blind to our current society. Sorry, but a very high percentage of today's 20 and 30 year old's are just down right flaky.

You are lacking the capacity to understand some simple statements. Nothing I said stated or implied that it was based upon agreeing with the way I do things.


Same thing I stated about not being flexible with the times and the moves of the Spirit...I guess you now agree with me. :thumbsup


I don't disagree with that. It's the "loyalty" aspect I was focused on not the organization


Organizations don't abuse they are structures. People abuse therefore the wrong person in authority in organizations or the wrong close friend can have the same devastating affect.

You as well as most deal with the fruit instead of the root.

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I agree in concept, but because the "church" (assuming you are using that term as structure) doesn't not become qualified because the became "unchurched" just as the "congregation" is people so disassociated themselves from the congregation does not qualify them.

You are focused on the fruit instead of the root. YES, for the most part what is considered the Body of Christ is ill prepared to really help people so the focus should be getting people prepared.

Interesting....Remember John John (JFK's kid) who flew his plane straight into the water? All the gauges on his panel showed he was headed straight towards the water, but he just knew he was flying straight.

You better know when and how you got planted and that nothing can move you

What's one got to do with the other? There are places I'm not welcomed either but all that means is that is not the place for me.


I am with you in not wanting to go down with a ship, but my strategy is different....I rather be connected to a ship that is sea worthy then to be treading water by myself

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Are you serious?

I just happened to be living in Orlando when 9/11 happened.

It was documented that so many folks turned to "church" and "religion" for assurance during that of trial.


The vandalism of an Islamic worship center and the murder of at least one Middle Eastern man was documented as well, in Orlando.

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Can't understand your simple statements? Must be because I'm under 40, huh? It is quite easy, however, to understand your thinly veiled arrogance and know-it-all attitude. I see it all over your posts. :D

You implied "all", and have now shifted to "very high percentage". What a concession. ;)

Moving on.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1764I6JOmLI

I see the king of glory
Coming on the clouds with fire
The whole earth shakes
The whole earth shakes

Yeeeah

I see his love and mercy
Washing over all our sin
The people sing
The people sing

[Chorus]
Hosanna
Hosanna
Hosanna in the highest [x2]

I see a generation
Rising up to take their place
With selfless faith
With selfless faith

I see a near revival
Stirring as we pray and seek
We're on our knees
We're on our knees

[Chorus]

Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like you have loved me

Break my heart from what breaks yours
Everything I am for your kingdoms cause
As I go from nothing to
Eternity

[Chorus x2]

Hosanna in the highest

Re: The Times...They are a-Changin'
 

Darlene Zhech and Hillsong are great.
A very easy going sound.

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She was a speaker at some of the classes my wife took at Willow Creek last week. Kristin loved her.

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Carpenter, the topic of this thread is something that is on my mind almost 24/7.

God is doing a new thing. I want to be a part of it.

Real reformers are, more often than not, persecuted for their attempts at change.

I pray that the generation that follows me never has to deal with the issues my generation has.

IMO, we have been given a raw deal.

The generation before us (THE ELDERS) didn't want to let go of anything, and backed us into a no-win theological quandry.

The generation that is coming after us wants nothing to do with rules based religion. They are leaving it in droves.

Bridging these two group-thinks is much more than difficult.

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EA, are you saying some things are less than compatible?

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z.../wide-load.jpg

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Your wife's gonna be mad that you posted that!


lol

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The spirit of the age we live in has a lot to do with this. I see a lack of commitment in many aspects of culture, not just the church.

It is a day of self centeredness and narcissism where people do not want any "structure". Anything that might oppose their will and whims is avoided.

I recently was trying to explain to a young person why I had no desire to watch a video clip on the internet of a reportedly very funny but profane song. I was called an old fogey, etc. Those that know me know that by no means am I a prude.I have a dry and somewhat risque sense of humor. However there are lines that are drawn in my mind that I do not cross. I find that many young people today don't have those lines or seemingly any.

For example I will watch "r" rated movies however if it turns out the rating was because of extensive cursing I have an internal filter that knows when the "line" has been reached. If I start watching a film and in the first few minutes my internal filter says "enough, this is too much too filter out and ignore" then the movie gets turned off. I don't see that filtering process in many young people these days.

I think that same "spirit" permeates the church world in the sense that poeple make all kinds of excuses to not get plugged into a church when the real reason is that they don't want to conform their lives to anything other than just what they want to in their own understanding.

I am seeing this in a young person I have known for a long time that I never though would be this way. They have fallen into that oldest of traps where after seeing some less than perfect people and situations in churches they are disillusioned with conventional church and refuse to be a member anywhere.

I have told them that if they are looking for the perfect church and pastor they are delusional because they will never find it. You have to find a church and pastor that you believe preaches and teaches the Bible correctly as close to what you believe is correct as possible then dive in and connect yourself to that church and pastor.

My young friend thinks he is just find missing church most of the time and still considers himself a Christian but he is forgetting where in the Bible it talks about preachers being given the saints for instruction and reproof, etc, etc.

Have I become an ultra con and think people should sumbmit themselves to legalistic overlords? Absolutely not! However everybody needs a body of believers to be accountable to and to grow in the Lord together with. Not to mention a pastor whose vision you can catch and follow him as he follows Christ.

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You are missing it. This lady's dress code is obviously not compatible with modesty... :spit

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CC1 has gone over to the dark side!

Oooooooooonoooooooooo!!!!

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I betcha the first thing that crosses most folks' mind when they see that has nothing to do with her "dress code.":smack

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I just felt sorry for the chair! (It brought to mind an incident in Austin, Texas in the mid 80's when while driving near the University of Texas I saw a young woman with a build similar to the pic Eureka posted of that woman on the chair. Only this woman was riding a 10 speed bicycle and the seat was nowehere to be seen!!!!!!

I was haunted by that image for years and as you can see even now around 25 years later it still comes to mind at times.

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Carpenter, here's my advice, fwiw.

Live life with the future in view.

The echoes of many of the arguments from FCF, NFCF and AFF have been reduced to a whisper as most folks have made up their minds about those issues - and are now implementing life changes based upon the information gathered.

Groups like the ole NFCF "Posse" have faded into oblivion, hiding out in an obscure, irrelevant crack of the world wide web, and the old-timey ways are becoming more and more foreign to even main-line Oneness Pentecostals.

And yet, I am sure that somewhere, fifty years from now, there will be someone bemoaning the loss of "the old paths." Someone like Granny Clampett, who never fully believed that The War Between The States had ended.

She had so segmented herself from society that change simply passed her by, and so she ignorantly kept on fighting a war that had long ago been settled.

Carp, this war will rage for a little while longer and then, poof, it will disappear.

It will soon be forgotten.

People will look back at these forums and laugh at some of the debates.

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The church is changing.

The way we do church is changing.

But I am not concerned.

God WILL have a church.

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Interesting....My wife and I talk about this a good bit......One reason is because she is the personnel manager at a business of around 400 plus people and many of those hired are in the 20 - 30 age range..........I'm not trying to use a broad brush but there is no doubt that there is a different mind set in many in this age bracket.......Many, many are easy come easy go. ...Loyalty indeed is a bygone virtue on the job......here today and gone tommorrow and no two week notice, nothing, one day their at work the next day they are gone..............So it's not just a church thing, no, it's something that reaches inot all areas of their lives........You really can't run a business with employess that have this mindset. For any organization to be successful there has to be stability and structure somewhere............And many times this stability and structure is found in the baby boomer and up generation............Whatever happened to being faithful in all areas of our life?

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Pardon me, but that loyalty thing goes both ways.

Most employers show no loyalty.