Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?
 

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

:popcorn2

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Being Apostolic myself I cant think of any Jesus name people I hate.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Fear & insecurity of their own salvation. :D

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Not sure I'd use the word hatred. Maybe it's more pride or ego and the inability to share.
Just like little kids have to one up everyone. It seems that if there is more than one Apostolic church in a town, they have to be the best. No sharing. Their doctrine and standards are the "right" ones, etc.

I know in many cities the local assemblies do not fellowship each other.

For unknown reasons "our" churches are easily threatened (by each other!)


Over simplification, yes; but true!

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

I don't think I would call it hatred, but there is definitely a lot of divisiveness. People seem to have a hard time fellowshipping people that don't believe things pretty much like they do, even if they agree on baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure why.

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

Because we have so much invested in being "right". In having "the truth". We don't want the boat rocked. When people start 'questioning' they often end up leaving their church, so we've drawn the conclusion that questioning is bad. You should just accept the truth, and not argue with it. Questioning is a sign that your heart is getting cold, and you're drifting from the truth.

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

If we do, it is probably because we're spirit-filled, so we know there is a realm out there beyond just the natural that we can see.

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

Is this exclusive to Apostolics?

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?

Introversion. Exclusiveness.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Introversion, if I have to choose between those two.

There ya go moniker...anything else ya want to know?

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

I don't think it's hatred, I think it's more like disgust. I think many view the term "Apostolic" as a brand - or a badge of honor. So when people with lower standards tarnish the brand by watering it down, it makes people angry that their badge of honor holds less value. That's why we all get into arguments about what the term "apostolic" and "pentecostal" really means and who it classifies.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Well said. :thumbsup

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Good questions.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Now that's what I call "spot on"! Very well said and when you read it, you make something so complicated seem so simple! :thumbsup

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Aw shucks.... :D

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

I mean that...you really simplified something that at times seems SOOO complex. It really isn't complex....maybe that's what we need to focus on and remember!!! Jesus did it simple, why can't we????

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Thanks. :thumbsup

What still makes it kinda complicated IMO, though, is figuring out who's right. That's where we get into gray areas. There is something to be said for being associated with a group of like minded people - with a label that actually means something to define them. But there is also something to be said for not letting labels drive us apart over non-critical issues.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

why are Christians murderers....hello? Nice sweeping generalization, SOME...SOME...use the word SOME

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Indeed. You said a mouthful here. "Exclusiveness" is not exactly a Christian attribute within the body.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

The above are not solely related to Apostolics or Pentecostals. Have you ever seen the Baptists fight?

However, IMO the behavioral issues related to the religious groups you mention is a direct result of not properly understanding the simplicity of the gospel and functioning in Christ.

Any person regardless of religious affiliation who does not solely place their faith in Christ and His work will struggle with the sin nature.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

IF ...? there is hatred among Apostolics, it is simply because the love of God is NOT
shed abroad in hearts and lives! God is LOVE and if we have GOD in us, we should
be showing forth HIS LOVE. If we don't have LOVE, we don't have GOD!

Romans 5:4,5-

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

:popcorn2 :popcorn2 :popcorn2 :popcorn2 :popcorn2

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

The choice to love is ours...

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

As many have said, I also think the word hatred is too strong. There are people who love each other and are in the same families that feel the feelings you are describing here and they do not hate each other. However, the Apostolic church, in my opinion, is built upon having the "right" interpretation of the Bible. People are extremely concerned about being "right" believing that it can make or break their salvation. When your salvation hinges upon having the "right" doctrines and doing the "right" things, anyone who does not agree with this "right" interpretation and do these "right" things becomes a suspected apostate who could hinder not only their own salvation but yours if you allow your love for them to take you down the "wrong path". Therefore I think what you are seeing is based upon what people call their "love for God and the truth" which in Apostolic circles is held higher than human relationships.

The Bible says to be careful of science "falsely so-called". Apostolics believe that knowledge can be dangerous like the "knowledge of good and evil" that Adam and Eve came upon and that knowledge must always be weighed against what they believe the Bible to say. For example, I have seen science hailed when it was used to prove that red lips invoke a sexual response in men thereby backing up the belief that lipstick is evil. However, if science backs up something that strictly goes against Apostolic beliefs, since spirituality and being saved and being "right" always is top priority, the science always gets second place and will be downright thrown out if it is seen as drawing someone away from "the truth" and salvation. Many times people must choose between what they believe is salvation and science which is why higher education is not as highly esteemed in Apostolic circles and some other conservative groups. It is a matter of priority. Salvation always comes first. This can sometimes become circular though because it is based on what is believed brings salvation and so sometimes one's own personal perception is actually thrown out in fear of seeing differently which could cause what one thinks is eternal hell and it would also cause social ostracization.

When you read the Bible, you see the devil being cast out in a number of places. Then, when a person has the experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost and it is a very real and life changing experience, a person then has to think about how to weigh what is evil. There are varying degrees to which people give attention to the devil in the Apostolic church. Usually, the more attention that is given to it, the greater likelihood of emotional instability.

This has somewhat to do with the ministerial ethics in the manual. Ministers are taught ethics to the T in some churches, other ministers are taught little to nothing about them. If ministerial ethics were taught and used everywhere, it may just be seen as a matter of respect and formality. However, a big problem comes in with elitism and the belief that the "truth" is more important than ministerial ethics. Once again, it is the belief that being "right" is always more important for salvation and human relationships are diminished. Ministerial ethics are based on respect, being "right and "saved" is based on what one believes about the Bible and is held in higher esteem than anything else including respect for your fellow minister.

I am not altogether clear on what is meant by Emerging Church...I understand it as a movement, so I won't answer this question.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Anyone else?

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

I would not say hatred to harsh of a word they seem like good people the apostolics do they just interpret some of the scriptures wrong sometimes ...LOL

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

I honestly saw more animosity between apostolics, not all though, than any group I have witnessed before. And I think it is the legalistic strain through many people involved in it. Legalism, as Paul explained, leads to works of the flesh. And hatred is a big work of the flesh. It just goes with legalistic territory. Again, not all apostolics are legalists. But you will find animosity amongst those that are everytime.

Concentrating upon the outward so much is concentration on flesh. And fleshly-mindedness simply goes hand in hand with animosity and works of the flesh. Gal 5 implies that when Paul stated those who get steeped in legalism better watch out that they do not bite and devour one another.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Interesting observation. I've never thought of it that way.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Why is there so much infidelity among Apostolics?

Why is there so much child abuse (physical, mental, sexual) among Apostolics?

Why is there so much spousal abuse among Apostolics?

Why is there so much gluttony among Apostolics?

Why is there so much disregard for civil law (traffic laws, tax laws, etc) among Apostolics?

Why is there so much dishonesty among Apostolics?

Why is there so much teen age pregnancy among Apostolics?

Why is there so much ............. among Apostolics?


Because Apostolics are human just like everyone else.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

You've painted apostolics with an amazingly broad brush. It seems you're working from a very narrow viewpoint. I feel your post could be broadened to all of Christianity. Even at that, it should be prefaced with "some," rather than the inferred "all." Christians are humans. And humans are pretty lousy, much of the time.

Both are threats. Introversion is an enemy of the church, as is a Christianity without absolutes.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Whoa! Raven, Mike certainly did say it very well.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

When you read the Bible, you see the devil being cast out in a number of places. Then, when a person has the experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost and it is a very real and life changing experience, a person then has to think about how to weigh what is evil. There are varying degrees to which people give attention to the devil in the Apostolic church. Usually, the more attention that is given to it, the greater likelihood of emotional instability.

I was gonna stay out of this, but this one line really "caught" my eye. Because one may be a little more in-tune with the spirit world than others, does NOT, in any form, mean that they are "emotionally unstable"!!!!!!!!! I am more sensitive to "spirits", but that does not mean I am unstable or wierd, or odd. I am just in-tune more with what's going in the spirit.

I pray daily, that God allows me to be more sensitive to Him, and in doing that, I automatically become more aware of what's going on around me, physcially and spiritually. I want to be used to reach people who need a Savior, and in doing that you made aware of what's really going on in their world sometimes. Sometimes, that includes being a little more aware of "the big bad devil" and what he's putting people through, and what they unknowingly allow him to do to them. But, in NO WAY am I suffering from "emotional instability" because I am used in this way.

You know better than that. You were used in this at one time. You were one of the most spiritually sensitive people I had ever met. You loved God and wanted to be used by Him, but just because you were more sensitive to the spirit, whether it Divine or Demonic, didn't make you "emotionally unstable". You were used and blessed by God.

Becareful with the "broad-brushing" here....:foottap

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

GOOD POINT SAM!!!!

Let's not ever forget our HUMAN factor!

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

1. I believe that hatred is too strong a word. Everyone of us come from different backgrounds and some believe stronger than others, and some are more capable of "allowing" and "condoning" things and allowing fellowship with those "gray areas" than others are. I don't believe it is hatred.

2. Some may be afraid of it, but some are not afraid of intellectualism, but they are concerned that when you begin to "question" you open yourself up to confusion. You can begin to question EVERYTHING, and that is not good. Because, in lieu of "trying to find out what this means and what that means", you begin to "water" everything down, you begin to lose faith and trust in most things. NOTHING is sacred anymore. You begin to question motives and behaviors that really have nothing to do with you, but you begin to wonder if anything in life is real, solid, honest, etc.

3. Already answered that in my post above.

4. Why are we territorial? Well, let me tell ya this way. What if you planted a garden, tilled that ground, pulled all the weeds, watered, even when it never rained, EVERYDAY you were there. Working and sweating and bleeding, sacrificing...get my point... When I work with someone and I invest my time and energy, money, prayers in the middle of the night, or getting in my car to go referee a fight in the middle of the night and walk into a house with kids screaming and crying and begging me to keep mom or dad from leaving, or walking into the ER to see someone mangled or dying from a heart attack, or spending HOURS in the hospital while a woman is in labor and trying to coach her through the pain and get a baby born, or cry with a family because a loved one died and that loved one went to the same church you did, or listen to a teenager scream at the unfairness of God and the church, and turn their back and walk away with you begging them not to and then have to sit back and watch while the walk willingly into a world of sin and perversion while their mom and dad are screaming and crying and asking you to do something and to help....

Get the idea....TERRITORIAL......YOU BETCHA!!!!

5. Since these are the only choices, I'd have to say introversion. Why? Because it is easy for ANYONE to become introverted and let it be just us four and no more and what's going on in your own world and forget about everybody else.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Because I'm RIGHT and you're WRONG. That's why! :lol

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Well.......I was talking to a minister friend of mine last week concerning one specific area that is listed in this post - that being "Territorial". First, let me say that in all liklihood, not ALL apostolic church's/leaders are territorial. We need to be careful not to broad brush all apostolics, especially when none of us on here knows every apostolic out there.

That said, I have seen and am aware that there are some leaders and pastors who are very territorial, which is really a symptom of insecurity. Our church's should pull together and help one another win cities to the Lord - pulling talent, calling and ideas to create synergy - sadly, in some cases this does not happen because a pastor feels "threatened". It is truely an elementary attitude.

There is, in some cases, too much emphasis on sheep stealing, etc. I feel, as I have said before many times on this forum, that the root cause of the division is that church has become too much of a business and less a spiritual body of believers. I still don't understand why Paul could hold a trade and plant church's and mentor other ministers, and yet today there is such an emphasis on "Full Time" ministry.

I have been around awhile and heard all the arguments about the necessity of full time ministry - even still, it seems to me, at least in the circle I have been around, that folks have not idea about the principle of "Less is More". Too much burn out going on these days - I wonder who we are serving sometimes....God or our own ambitions??

Sorry for the rant.......I just feel that we should work more toward unity then exclusivity.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

In Paul's day they didn't do church like we do. In Paul's day they just met in homes, had prayer meetings and studied Scripture together. They also took free will offerings to meet various needs. They didn't need a full time CEO or production planner.

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Great Post!:thumbsup

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Bro. Raven, your post reminded me of something I had noticed lately.

I noticed for a few years, the bluejays that came each summer to nest
in our trees in the back yard. They would become very "territorial", in that
they would dart down and peck on the cat and squirrels that liked our back
yard with several large shady trees also.
It came to mind a few days ago, "I haven't seen any bluejays lately! Wonder
where all the bluejays have gone"! Could it be that the very things they were
pecking on, had removed them! I did notice that the cat (that belongs to a
neighbor, but likes to hang out here) is still around. Haven't noticed any
squirrels lately either. I wondered why the neighbor's cat liked it over here
so much. Evidently he found something to eat, but I haven't fed him.:nah

Falla39

Re: Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics
 

Excellent post The Lemon!