New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Honest to God, this is true!

I have first-hand knowledge of an Apostolic church where a pastor appointed a "security committee" with men who have concealed carry licenses and is having them carry their concealed weapons to church with them. This, evidently, in response to recent church shootings.

How do you feel about this?

Would you feel safer knowing this to be true?

Would you feel uneasy knowing this to be true?

Is this a symptom of lack of faith in God to fight our battles?

Would you attend a church where you knew this to be the case?

Would this affect you at all or is this just a minor distraction?

Comments please... please don't ask me where this church is or who the pastor is. My goal is not to start trouble for them, but rather to get some different opinions and perspectives.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

I don't have a problem with it, as long as it's legal (is it?) and the men are highly trained. I think it's fairly wise with all of the church shootings. A recent church shooting was stopped because there was an armed security guard there.

I've been considering getting a concealed handgun permit myself.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Just hope the people carrying the weapons:

A) Know how to shoot in a chaotic crowd
B) Has a good holster in case they start dancin' :hanky :shockamoo

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Unless they are trained to use them in a situation like that, I would prefer not. I think the only ones I would trust are air marshals. They are trained to handle a gun very carefully in a crowded situation on an air plane.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

I allow concealed carry @ NLC. I even carry myself at the church at times. I don't carry in the pulpit though. I trust others who carry. We have Law Enforcement officials in most services...at least the 2nd service anyway.

I don't think it is a lack of faith. We are currently working with local law enforcement on a security plan. What to do, what not to do, how, when, why to "lock down" etc. We want to be prepared. There are no guarantees, but we are working within our rights and legal and moral parameters.

I have stated this before here, the LAST thing I would want to do is to take a life by use of deadly force. I would not want to live with that. However, I would rather deal with that having saved a life than have done nothing to preserve it. That is MY opinion and others have theirs and may be differing from mine.

I carry mine on the outside. It is in a holster which looks like a Daytimer pouch which is on my belt. I carry a Keltec 9mm. :D

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

I would say put it up to a church vote... how does the local body feel concerning this course of action. I may be a pacifist and not want weapons around, but should there be a VERY REAL danger, and should it disturb the saints, and enough vote for it, is there any harm in hiring a security guard? I doubt it...

But I would think a spirit of faith and trusting in divine protection is better than trusting in swords...

-Bro. Alex

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

It's a good idea to shoot first, if God is not able to protect His people, and if it is better to send a sinner to Hell than to see a saint sent to Heaven.

With a little cut and paste, "turn the other cheek" can be replaced with "return fire."

Madea would love the concept of "security committees." It's good to bring the "peace-maker" to church.

Here is the link (Embedding is disabled - You'll have to cut and paste). It'll bless your pistol-packing soul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMM42qO7JS8

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

I have a buddy who used to handle the transportation for TD Jakes. One of his good buddies in that ministry was the head of Jakes' security. He has a professional security company. There a men around Jakes with guns and they take all the necessary security precautions. It is transparent to all the members, they just look like a any other member, another guy in a suite. Many ministries have had threats that prompt them to have security. If you were to go to almost any big name preacher there would be security. Of course, the depth of training and professionalism would vary.

Perhaps this pastor you refer to has good reason to hire security. My pastors' life was threatened and police were called and they took it very serious. If the man showed up at church who threatened him...we had a plan...believe me we had a plan.

No I don't have a problem with it. And I don't think it is a lack of faith. God could have called down fire from heaven on his enemies every time, but he also allowed people to have victory with a sword in their hand.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

I was gonna play "Peacemaker" by GreenDay but it has a word that would offend some of us

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

If someone is breaking into my house, I'll call the police. It's not that I don't trust God to protect me, it's just that he'll sometimes use the police to do it. :)

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

by the time the police arrive your house would have already been broken into

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

That wasn't my point. We have guns in our house. My point is that using 'force' is not a sign that you believe God can't protect you.

Some people are against carrying guns because they believe that shows a lack of faith, and yet I imagine they would call the police (who have guns) if they were being attacked.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

One of the networks did a special on this conceal carry issue - specifically with college/university students carrying ...

They had a scenario in which the show had a couple dozen students come into a "class" not knowing who was carrying. During this class, a couple off-duty police officers burst thru the doors, guns blazing. The officers also didn't know who was carrying.

In almost every case ... even with a couple "experienced" gun owners:
1) More than half didn't even get the gun out of the holster before being shot
2) The couple who did clear holster and fire their gun, fired wildly and missed the targets

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Ah...I see

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

In the case of a gunman methodically going around shooting, those students would hear the shots and be prepared. That scenario would be the same probably for even a seasoned cop

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Quick note ...
Should a church form a security committee and allow certain persons to conceal carry firearms ... I hope they have good insurance in case any visitor or saint is injured by friendly fire.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Thats hellish. Where is the pastors faith?
Why did Peter have to put up his 'legal' sword but this 'commitee' of armed men dont have to?

What a weak fleshy leader!

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Depends on the size of the college/university. If there are separate buildings, some would never know what happened ... the recent V-Tech shootings had the shooter going to different buildings without the students knowing what was happening, and without the school admin able to lock down the buildings in time.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

:lol tell us how you really feel ...

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Assume that this pastor has a good reason for security. What if it was your pastor whose life had been threatened? Would you have the courage to say, "just trust God pastor. Don't take any precautions at all. You have to have faith. I mean, after all God will take care of you. If you die it is just your time to go. God will take care of your family if some idiot blows your brains out. Your son and daughter will do just fine without you. And I am sure your wife will find another good man of God to marry."

Hellish??? What is really hellish? Faith or foolishness. Precaution or presumption.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

My conservative PAW pastor and his pastoring friends in surrounding cities were known to pack heat in their briefcases.

1979 !!

Midwest.

New trend?
Marcbee
:usa

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Good point. But, isn't it understandable that this attitude prevails for most "believers", considering that, regardless or whether God can or can't, He actually doesn't, usually, do what He promised? They see the Word, and they see the real world. Everyone has to choose which to believe.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

I don't necessarily have any spiritual or moral objections...however....

Guns freak me out! To the point of phobia. I guess I see it as a piece of equipment with no purpose other than to cause harm / death. If it's within my control, I don't want to anywhere near a gun.

I don't go to church anyway, so it's a moot point, but I don't think I would go, if I knew that several people were bringing guns there. I just wouldn't feel safe. To be fair, I would go to a friends / family members house if they had a gun either.

Bottom lines...guns are icky! :foottap

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

I'm undecided on the issue, myself. The cliche, if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns, has some validity, IMO. Yet, guns in the hands of so-called "good" people (if it's possible to define them!) can result in accidental injuries and death. But sometimes they do protect. (I think!)

As someone already mentioned, this idea of a security force in the church better be supported with excellent training.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

What spirit is this pastor under?

In the wild wild west congregants were instructed to remove their holsters and leave their side arms in the wagons or on
their saddles before entering the 'LORDS HOUSE'.
That what they called the building where the church met - THE LORD'S HOUSE.
Those days were dangerous too - but left their six shooters were left outside.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

true but even the outlaw seemed to have respect for the "Lord's House" back then. today we live in a society that seems to have NO respect for anything.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Which is why we need a Jedi knight in every service. I cannot think of better protection against thugs who may enter the building.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

You know, Jesus instructed His 12 to sell their garments and buy some swords.

:doggyrun

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

If someone HAD walked into THE LORD'S HOUSE with guns blazing, you can bet your britches that there would have been a massive dive for the guns left outside.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Where have these shootings occured that involve multiple killings which have garnered press attention........In locales that don't allow conceal and carry...........These killers are looking for the most "unarmed " place they can find.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

And then a new day dawned - because his new instruction was to put the sword up.

I wonder how much Holy Spirit a church has to lose before its so full of fear that it has to take such carnal actions? I dont know - I'm just saying...

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

In my church...the pastor got a death threat on the church answering machine. This was not some nut...the police came and ran the mans criminal background and took the threat serious. The man used words that were a threat but just veiled enough to avoid arrest. We took precautions for weeks. No one went outside alone, especially at night. We had men go 2 by 2 and who took regular patrols in the parking lot. We have several men in the church that carry...
We did not lose any HS, we prayed, hard. We talked in tongues...
But we kept our eyes open and knew that there were a couple of men who could reach in their pocket and pull a gun if it were necessary.
Another time a druggie came in and was going to try to rob the offering. He sat on the front row but before the $$ was taken up conviction got hold of him and he stood and repented and asked for prayer. Prayer works, but so will a gun!

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

I would trust God in prayer, praying I would shoot straight.....


LOL!

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

ROFL!

I walked into church one night and a dear Sis.caught me and said pray for me I am going to hit Sis (big mouth..talks about everyone in the church) and she held up her right fist. I took her hand and said, "God let this right hand connect on her jaw with a right hook. Let her knock her out LORD!"

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Just don't ask Plaxico Burris to church.

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

This Scripture is often twisted to justify carrying and even using deadly weapons. Let's actually look at the text...

Luke 22:35-38
35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Here we read how Jesus told the 12 to sell their garments and buy swords. What did he mean? Well, the disciples took him literally and brought to him two swords and immediately Jesus tells them, "It is enough.", in other words, "Stop this." The disciples were thinking with their carnal minds (as some are here) and took him literally. What Jesus was trying to tell them is that they were about to face intense persecution. This would mean that men wouldn't pour out into their bosoms any loner, but rather now they had to take their own purse and script. In addition they were to be prepared to face violence. When two swords were brought to Him, Jesus realized that the 12 just didn't get it. So he stopped them from gathering any more weapons. We know that Jesus never intended them to take him literally or use these weapons. How? Because Peter evidently used one of these two swords when the Lord was arrested. Let's look at what happened and mark the words of Jesus...

Matthew 26:51-52
51And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Please note that when Peter actually tries to use one of these weapons Jesus rebukes him and warns that if he lives by the sword he would perish with the sword.

There is no argument for Christians using "lethal" force. True Christians have always been the most peaceful people alive, willing to die before betraying their Lord through the use of violence. We wouldn't prostitute to raise money for God's work, we wouldn't lie to advance God's word, ... how then do we think that killing a sinner is justifiable in relation to God's work?

We do well to call the authorities. Because the authorities have been ordained of God to carry and use the sword to restrain evil. However, we being citizens of another country, a heavenly country, are not called to bloodshed.

If threatened with death would you deny Christ? No. Would you commit any other sin if threatened with death? No. How do faithful martyrs sudden become gun blazing Rambos? How do you know that your preaching and prayer before the gunman that kills you won't save his or her soul? It was the martyrdom of Stephen that shook Paul. The pricks began in Paul's heart the moment he heard faithful Stephen praying for God to forgive his murderers. How different would Paul's story be if Stephen went down guns blazing. Who knows... maybe one of Stephens bullets would have cut Paul down, killing him. And then where would we be?

On a spiritual level... I think this pastor needs to resign. He's obviously as carnal as two boys kissing. He is unwilling to take the burden of not only living for Christ... but dying for him. He is unfit for duty and a danger to the cause of Christ. His actions glorify this world's notion of guns and glory... not Christ. He will become a poster child for the media's efforts to paint Bible believing Christians as militant fundamentalists who are a danger to society. And should something go terribly wrong... the Gospel of Christ will be slandered before the Heathen. I've seen communities where a Pastor was shot and killed (we had one shot here in Ohio). It brought people together and opened dialogue about faith, peace, and the power of Christ to heal in the wake of tragedy. Racial barriers fell as all came to give their respects to the fallen minister. Backsliders returned. If you saw the honors paid you would think he was a fallen police office or soldier. While being cut down by an assassin's bullets this minister, like his Lord, prayed for his enemy. You will never win a world or a community that you are not willing to die for.

On a safety level... I'll assume the men are properly trained. But the Pastor does open a world of liabilities upon the church. What if one of these gun toting saints becomes disgruntled? What if bullets start flying and they loose track of who's who? What if a visitor is a cop, suddenly bullets start flying and the first thing he sees is an usher with a gun? This is very messy. Yet... these things are not not my primary concern. Church shootings are still rather rare though more frequent than in previous years. Most churches will never encounter such a thing. However, if news that this Pastor pastors a heat packing church gets out on the street and a disgruntled and mentally disturbed person decides that he want's to gun down a minister or open fire on a congregation going down in a blaze of glory... where do you think he'll go? I assure you there are wackos already thinking about it. It's just a matter of one of them being crazy enough to do it. The man is putting his church in mortal danger. He needs to be removed.

Lastly, can someone give me an example of a single Christian in the New Testament using violence of any sort in self defense?

Think and pray people.

What's happened to you Pentecost?

Re: New trend in Apostolic churches???
 

Good points Chris, but I have always differentiated using force (deadly or otherwise) to defend yourself versus defending others, such as family.

I think it would actually be much easier and even "Christian" of me to turn the other cheek if someone attacks ME, but if someone attacked my son or wife (or even my dog!), would I sit back? Not on your life.