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-   -   Any willing to answer my question? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=25023)

1Corinth2v4 07-10-2009 05:06 PM
Any willing to answer my question?
 
Recently I dialogged with hometownguy and raised an interesting question that has yet been answered. I'm not sure whether hometownguy missed or overlooked the question, however, I can vouch for hometownguy's authenticity as a man of God.

I recall before resigning my membership at conservative apostolic forum, they enforced non-questioning of certain spiritual-regulations and/or theological beliefs. Yet, within my mindset I quote and practice Peter's comment of "give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason."

I will restate my question and direct it towards "pastor brethren" that resigned from the UPCI after "the advertisement" resolution succeeded. Recently while in attendance of a church service, they were preaching about men/women adhering to their pastor/elder's advise, and that congregants should endure through certain situations and trust their pastors/elders instead of leaving the church. While the preacher reinforced this mentality, these fine pastor brethren on the platform clapped in agreement.Yet, these fine brethren resigned from the UPCI, after being advised not to resign by thier elders, and claimed "God's will."

However, if a congregant leaves one of these pastor's churches and claims God's will, the congregant is backslidden and going to hell? Where is the validity in this matter? I challenge any "man of God" with this mentality of thinking to gird up your loins and address my question!

Sam 07-10-2009 05:33 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
It's the old "Don't do as I do. Do as I say" mentality.

berkeley 07-10-2009 05:40 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
There is no validity. Pastors say that they are accountable to their elders, but in reality, pastors don't have pastors. The "elders" are there only for advice.
BUT, when a saint doesn't follow his pastors "advice," said person is out of God's will and in rebellion.

All that aside, I believe in the atonomy ( sp ) of the church. I do not believe that presbyters or general supers serve for much more than organizational duties, administrative, etc.

staysharp 07-10-2009 06:05 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4 (Post 770882)
Recently I dialogged with hometownguy and raised an interesting question that has yet been answered. I'm not sure whether hometownguy missed or overlooked the question, however, I can vouch for hometownguy's authenticity as a man of God.

I recall before resigning my membership at conservative apostolic forum, they enforced non-questioning of certain spiritual-regulations and/or theological beliefs. Yet, within my mindset I quote and practice Peter's comment of "give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason."

I will restate my question and direct it towards "pastor brethren" that resigned from the UPCI after "the advertisement" resolution succeeded. Recently while in attendance of a church service, they were preaching about men/women adhering to their pastor/elder's advise, and that congregants should endure through certain situations and trust their pastors/elders instead of leaving the church. While the preacher reinforced this mentality, these fine pastor brethren on the platform clapped in agreement.Yet, these fine brethren resigned from the UPCI, after being advised not to resign by thier elders, and claimed "God's will."

However, if a congregant leaves one of these pastor's churches and claims God's will, the congregant is backslidden and going to hell? Where is the validity in this matter? I challenge any "man of God" with this mentality of thinking to gird up your loins and address my question!
No...get out while u can

A.W. Bowman 07-10-2009 08:30 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
The question was not addressed to me so I will not add to the discussion, except to say that I too would love to read a reasoned response.

Hoovie 07-10-2009 09:16 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4 (Post 770882)
Recently I dialogged with hometownguy and raised an interesting question that has yet been answered. I'm not sure whether hometownguy missed or overlooked the question, however, I can vouch for hometownguy's authenticity as a man of God.

I recall before resigning my membership at conservative apostolic forum, they enforced non-questioning of certain spiritual-regulations and/or theological beliefs. Yet, within my mindset I quote and practice Peter's comment of "give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason."

I will restate my question and direct it towards "pastor brethren" that resigned from the UPCI after "the advertisement" resolution succeeded. Recently while in attendance of a church service, they were preaching about men/women adhering to their pastor/elder's advise, and that congregants should endure through certain situations and trust their pastors/elders instead of leaving the church. While the preacher reinforced this mentality, these fine pastor brethren on the platform clapped in agreement.Yet, these fine brethren resigned from the UPCI, after being advised not to resign by thier elders, and claimed "God's will."

However, if a congregant leaves one of these pastor's churches and claims God's will, the congregant is backslidden and going to hell? Where is the validity in this matter? I challenge any "man of God" with this mentality of thinking to gird up your loins and address my question!
That is freaky! If at all possible, I would suggest people not sit in churches if this type of junk is propagated. That nasty evil spirit could get ahold of you too!

Steve Epley 07-10-2009 09:23 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.:thumbsup

berkeley 07-10-2009 11:17 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 770989)
Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.:thumbsup
This is what I was trying to convey. With he exception of the authority. Pastors don't own the saints. Ministers are called to be servants. ( so ) Why are saints serving pastors?

1Corinth2v4 07-11-2009 12:35 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 770989)
Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.:thumbsup

Bro. Epley,


If the local church in question belongs to an organization, the pastor is subject to a higher office. As a matter of fact, pastors being subjected to a higher office is scriptural. Please allow me to provide scripture. We read in Galatians 1:6, Paul is addressing the church of Galatia for entertaining false teachings.

Take notice, Paul doesn't address the pastors alone, but he addresses the pastors and congregants as a whole as "you foolish Galatians." This leads me to believe that:

1) Pastors and congregants can have truth, and can begin entertaining unscriptural teachings and be classified as fools.

2) If these Galatia pastors hadn't detoured to fulfill their own agenda, and fulfilled their responsibilities, Paul wouldn't have addressed the church of Galatia as fools.

3) Leadership must be subjected to higher leadership, which leaves me wondering if these independent pastors are being rebellious to what clearly the bible identifies as scriptural. Paul stated be imitators of him, and obviously he praticed pastoralship subjection to a higher office.


We also read within multiple text, including in Acts 14:23, Paul had appointed pastors, and these pastors were subject to a higher office, thus, we see this same structure within an organization, which is scriptural.

So yes brother Epley, you said well when stating:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account........



When these brethren pulled out of the UPCI, after being advised not to by their leaders, and yet they still left, they're found in rebellion to their leaders and the word of God. This also leaves me wondering if these pastors are backslidden and going to hell, just as they accuse those individuals that leave their groups!


hmmm..........

Steve Epley 07-11-2009 07:38 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4 (Post 771032)
Bro. Epley,


If the local church in question belongs to an organization, the pastor is subject to a higher office. As a matter of fact, pastors being subjected to a higher office is scriptural. Please allow me to provide scripture. We read in Galatians 1:6, Paul is addressing the church of Galatia for entertaining false teachings.

Take notice, Paul doesn't address the pastors alone, but he addresses the pastors and congregants as a whole as "you foolish Galatians." This leads me to believe that:

1) Pastors and congregants can have truth, and can begin entertaining unscriptural teachings and be classified as fools.

2) If these Galatia pastors hadn't detoured to fulfill their own agenda, and fulfilled their responsibilities, Paul wouldn't have addressed the church of Galatia as fools.

3) Leadership must be subjected to higher leadership, which leaves me wondering if these independent pastors are being rebellious to what clearly the bible identifies as scriptural. Paul stated be imitators of him, and obviously he praticed pastoralship subjection to a higher office.


We also read within multiple text, including in Acts 14:23, Paul had appointed pastors, and these pastors were subject to a higher office, thus, we see this same structure within an organization, which is scriptural.

So yes brother Epley, you said well when stating:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account........



When these brethren pulled out of the UPCI, after being advised not to by their leaders, and yet they still left, they're found in rebellion to their leaders and the word of God. This also leaves me wondering if these pastors are backslidden and going to hell, just as they accuse those individuals that leave their groups!


hmmm..........
I understand what you are saying however these are the facts:
1. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles called by God and vindicated by supernatural signs and wonders.
2. As the Apostle he had God given authority to address doctrinal and moral issues in those churches.
3. Organizational offices are MANMADE not God instituted thus they have NO divine authority.
4. The ministry are to submit to the ministry NOT some ecclesiastical system that has NO divine authority.
Example if you formed a club and voted in officials and made rules and someone in your club left your club and started his own you could NOT have him arrested BECAUSE your club might mean the world to you but has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY. That authority is given by the consitution and state constitutions NOT the club. Your club might be wonderful but it is a non-entity to the legal community.
ALL organizations are clubs founded by men for certain reasons they may or may not do wonderful works but NONE are DIVINE in authority so Heaven does not back them up in their usurped authority.

freeatlast 07-11-2009 07:46 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 770989)
Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.:thumbsup
Hmmmm No scripture teaches that men must shave but you impose this doctrine on the men of your church.

That is an unscriptural teaching, therefore no divine authority is being disobeyed by a man who comes to your church with facial hair.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack a thread but when I see such inconsistency, i can't resist. :ursofunny :heart

Steve Epley 07-11-2009 07:57 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 771063)
Hmmmm No scripture teaches that men must shave but you impose this doctrine on the men of your church.

That is an unscriptural teaching, therefore no divine authority is being disobeyed by a man who comes to your church with facial hair.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack a thread but when I see such inconsistency, i can't resist. :ursofunny :heart
NOT pastoring so above my pay level.:thumbsup

freeatlast 07-11-2009 08:05 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 771066)
NOT pastoring so above my pay level.:thumbsup
Sorry Steve, should have said imposed in the past tense.

Glad to know, that you are no longer pastoring, that you would allow facial hair on men if you went back to pastoring, since there is clearly no bible that even remotely would give you such divine authority.

Steve Epley 07-11-2009 08:22 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 771070)
Sorry Steve, should have said imposed in the past tense.

Glad to know, that you are no longer pastoring, that you would allow facial hair on men if you went back to pastoring, since there is clearly no bible that even remotely would give you such divine authority.
Preachers are not only told to preach the Word but also the explain the such likes.:thumbsup

MikeinAR 07-11-2009 10:26 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 771074)
Preachers are not only told to preach the Word but also the explain the such likes.:thumbsup
Elder, I'd enjoy seeing you present your case scripturally against men having facial hair. I didn't realize that was a personal standard of yours.

HopePreacher 07-11-2009 10:40 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 771058)
I understand what you are saying however these are the facts:.
Quote:
1. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles called by God and vindicated by supernatural signs and wonders.
True, but Paul was also under the authority of the apostolic council in Jerusalem, to wit Acts 15


Quote:
3. Organizational offices are MANMADE not God instituted thus they have NO divine authority.
True: but when one joins an organization then that organization becomes the authority to which one has submitted oneself and is thereby etically bound to follow that authority except when to do so would jeopardize ones walk with God.

Quote:
4. The ministry are to submit to the ministry NOT some ecclesiastical system that has NO divine authority.
True: except that what minister do you know who has submitted to the authority of another minister and who follows that other minister even when they are in disagreement with him?


What has been my experience is that strong minded leaders who do not want to submit to another leader will at some point repeat the mistakes of the leader they would not submit to.

jaxfam6 07-11-2009 12:20 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopePreacher (Post 771116)
True, but Paul was also under the authority of the apostolic council in Jerusalem, to wit Acts 15




True: but when one joins an organization then that organization becomes the authority to which one has submitted oneself and is thereby etically bound to follow that authority except when to do so would jeopardize ones walk with God.



True: except that what minister do you know who has submitted to the authority of another minister and who follows that other minister even when they are in disagreement with him?


What has been my experience is that strong minded leaders who do not want to submit to another leader will at some point repeat the mistakes of the leader they would not submit to.
Thank you and Amen.

pelathais 07-12-2009 10:13 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 770989)
Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.:thumbsup
Firstly, I'm encouraged by 1 Cor's question. Who-da-thunk-it?

Next, there is something of an heirarchy already established even in NT times. Peter went to the apostles in Jerusalem to validate the experience of the Gentiles in Acts 10. Paul conferred with and received the "laying on of hands" (a subordinate role) from the apostles and prophets in Jerusalem.

It is a complex matter, but not one that is as cut and dried as your "apples and oranges" would seem to suggest. I'm almost certain that you recognize a series of subjection and oversight among the brethren, don't you?

It's the appearance of a "fast and loose" type of committment being displayed by some that gives rise to these questions. I'm afraid 1 Cor will probably go a long time without an answer.

commonsense 07-12-2009 09:24 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Interesting discussion topic, will look for more input.

DividedThigh 07-13-2009 09:56 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
double standard exists, the laity is held hostage by these guys, they all forget the premise of the church, it is a voluntary organization, we either attend or not by our own free will, dt

1Corinth2v4 07-13-2009 10:19 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 771058)
I understand what you are saying however these are the facts:
1. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles called by God and vindicated by supernatural signs and wonders.
2. As the Apostle he had God given authority to address doctrinal and moral issues in those churches.
3. Organizational offices are MANMADE not God instituted thus they have NO divine authority.
4. The ministry are to submit to the ministry NOT some ecclesiastical system that has NO divine authority.
Example if you formed a club and voted in officials and made rules and someone in your club left your club and started his own you could NOT have him arrested BECAUSE your club might mean the world to you but has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY. That authority is given by the consitution and state constitutions NOT the club. Your club might be wonderful but it is a non-entity to the legal community.
ALL organizations are clubs founded by men for certain reasons they may or may not do wonderful works but NONE are DIVINE in authority so Heaven does not back them up in their usurped authority.
Bro. Epley,


I don't think you're understanding the simplicity in my statements. Men submit to leaders when obtaining a ministerial license within the UPCI. This is the same actions Paul practiced, just vice-versa.

(Example: Paul appoints pastors, pastors are now submitted to Paul. A man receives his pastoral license within the UPCI, he willingly submits himself to a UPCI leader)

As you so plainly said, Hebrews 13:17; Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.......


I find it strange that these men can disobey their leader and flee the UPCI, and claim God's will. Yet, if a minister/ congregant leaves these conservative inner-circles, you're a child of Satan.

Steve Epley 07-13-2009 10:22 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4 (Post 771735)
Bro. Epley,


I don't think you're understanding the simplicity in my statements. Men submit to leaders when obtaining a ministerial license within the UPCI. This is the same actions Paul practiced, just vice-versa.

(Example: Paul appoints pastors, pastors are now submitted to Paul. A man receives his pastoral license within the UPCI, he willingly submits himself to a UPCI leader)

As you so plainly said, Hebrews 13:17; Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.......


I find it strange that these men can disobey their leader and flee the UPCI, and claim God's will. Yet, if a minister/ congregant leaves these conservative inner-circles, you're a child of Satan.
The elected officials of the UPC(or any organization for that matter) do not fulfil any divine Biblical office thus Heb. 13:17 does not apply to them it only applies to Scriptural offices. Apples and oranges.

1Corinth2v4 07-13-2009 10:42 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 771736)
The elected officials of the UPC(or any organization for that matter) do not fulfil any divine Biblical office thus Heb. 13:17 does not apply to them it only applies to Scriptural offices. Apples and oranges.
So pastors practiced submission within the New Testament church, yet, that's no longer a practice amongst us now?

To whom then can Heb 13:7 apply to, only saints? When you were pastoring, who were you submitted to?

Tim Rutledge 07-13-2009 10:53 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Because someone is elected into an office does not make them an Elder.. or give them biblical spiritual authority over anything.

Baron1710 07-13-2009 10:55 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge (Post 771754)
Because someone is elected into an office does not make them an Elder.. or give them biblical spiritual authority over anything.
Because someone calls themselves a pastor...

Neck 07-13-2009 11:01 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 770989)
Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.:thumbsup
So did Paul Pastor all the churches in the New Testament? Or was he the overseer of the churches? Did the pastor's in these churches have to submit to Paul? Mayby an off the subject question just wondering your thoughts.

1Corinth2v4 07-13-2009 11:03 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge (Post 771754)
Because someone is elected into an office does not make them an Elder.. or give them biblical spiritual authority over anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 771756)
Because someone calls themselves a pastor...
Bro. Rutledge,

I believe Baron just cyber-slapped you.

KWSS1976 07-13-2009 11:04 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Wondered who pastored the Corit Church..LOL It sure was disorganized...

Tim Rutledge 07-13-2009 11:09 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 771756)
Because someone calls themselves a pastor...
your right.. there are a lot of "Pastors".. who aren't called of God.

Timmy 07-13-2009 11:10 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge (Post 771763)
your right.. there are a lot of "Pastors".. who aren't called of God.
How can I tell if my pastor is called of God?

Tim Rutledge 07-13-2009 11:10 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4 (Post 771760)
Bro. Rutledge,

I believe Baron just cyber-slapped you.
:nah

Thats baron just being baron.

Tim Rutledge 07-13-2009 11:11 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 771765)
How can I tell if my pastor is called of God?
ask em.. if you think he is a liar.. leave.

Tim Rutledge 07-13-2009 11:14 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neck (Post 771759)
So did Paul Pastor all the churches in the New Testament? Or was he the overseer of the churches? Did the pastor's in these churches have to submit to Paul? Mayby an off the subject question just wondering your thoughts.
A real Bishop IMO. is a Pastor who started a church then placed a pastor into that Church and he'd go on to help or start another work. And yes you always answer to your Bishop (overseer).

Timmy 07-13-2009 11:14 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge (Post 771767)
ask em.. if you think he is a liar.. leave.
What if I'm wrong? (Some think I'm always wrong! :lol)

Tim Rutledge 07-13-2009 11:16 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 771771)
What if I'm wrong? (Some think I'm always wrong! :lol)
then you'll split hell wide open..

1Corinth2v4 07-13-2009 11:16 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4 (Post 771745)
So pastors practiced submission within the New Testament church, yet, that's no longer a practice amongst us now?

To whom then can Heb 13:7 apply to, only saints? When you were pastoring, who were you submitted to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neck (Post 771759)
So did Paul Pastor all the churches in the New Testament? Or was he the overseer of the churches? Did the pastor's in these churches have to submit to Paul? Mayby an off the subject question just wondering your thoughts.

Bump for Bro. Epley.

Timmy 07-13-2009 11:31 AM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge (Post 771772)
then you'll split hell wide open..
:thumbsup

hometown guy 07-13-2009 12:36 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4 (Post 770882)
Recently I dialogged with hometownguy and raised an interesting question that has yet been answered. I'm not sure whether hometownguy missed or overlooked the question, however, I can vouch for hometownguy's authenticity as a man of God.

I recall before resigning my membership at conservative apostolic forum, they enforced non-questioning of certain spiritual-regulations and/or theological beliefs. Yet, within my mindset I quote and practice Peter's comment of "give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason."

I will restate my question and direct it towards "pastor brethren" that resigned from the UPCI after "the advertisement" resolution succeeded. Recently while in attendance of a church service, they were preaching about men/women adhering to their pastor/elder's advise, and that congregants should endure through certain situations and trust their pastors/elders instead of leaving the church. While the preacher reinforced this mentality, these fine pastor brethren on the platform clapped in agreement.Yet, these fine brethren resigned from the UPCI, after being advised not to resign by thier elders, and claimed "God's will."

However, if a congregant leaves one of these pastor's churches and claims God's will, the congregant is backslidden and going to hell? Where is the validity in this matter? I challenge any "man of God" with this mentality of thinking to gird up your loins and address my question!
I think Bro. Epley has answered the question very well. Like he said its apples and oranges. How can an org be your elder. For a certain number of years Bro. “so and so” in your elder and then oops his terms up and now Bro. “So And so” is now your elder or God forbid now Sis ‘So and so” ;)
The men that I know did listen to their elders.

hometown guy 07-13-2009 12:46 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neck (Post 771759)
So did Paul Pastor all the churches in the New Testament? Or was he the overseer of the churches? Did the pastor's in these churches have to submit to Paul? Mayby an off the subject question just wondering your thoughts.
an example of paul of todays world would be someone like elder Morton that has his men go out and start churches and he is the overseer. all bro. motons men submit them selves to him yet they are pastors of their local church. Paul was not like an org that can carless what your doing as long as your dues are paid.

1Corinth2v4 07-13-2009 02:30 PM
Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometown guy (Post 771817)
I think Bro. Epley has answered the question very well. Like he said its apples and oranges. How can an org be your elder. For a certain number of years Bro. “so and so” in your elder and then oops his terms up and now Bro. “So And so” is now your elder or God forbid now Sis ‘So and so” ;)
The men that I know did listen to their elders.

Hometownguy,


I don't think I referred to an "org" as an elder, but instead referred to individuals as elders, within an organization. Since you used Bro. Morton as an example, so will I.

Say Bro. Morton's pastor is UPCI, and lets also "pretend" Bro. Morton submits to Elder Paul Price. If Bro. Morton is advised not to leave UPCI by these two fine men, and yet he does, is that an example of rebelling against your elders and defying God's word?

Can Bro. Morton use the term "God's will" as an excuse for leaving UPCI, after being advised not to leave? If yes, when individuals leave certain "conservative" circles, why can't these individuals claim "God's will" also?


I will await your answer! :thumbsup


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