The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

This post is directed toward my conservative, moderate, and liberal brethren. Please read carefully and answer accordingly.


After reading a dialog between Praxeas and Growingpains, I've decided to add my input. I've encountered various situations where congregants were in desperate financial need, and were over-looked by their pastor. Folks, I'm not talking about brethren whom constantly seek financial assistance from the church, but I'm talking about folks whom have never sought financial assistance. I'm personally acquainted with a sister that was facing eviction from her apartment, and was denied financial assistance from her pastor. It surprises me that these very pastors will jump to a round of golf, hunting, and\or other recreational activities without hesitation, sadly while their congregants are financially needy.


I've encountered various excuses why some pastors are non-employed, and the most popular response being "what if a saint needs me while I'm at work?" Readers, please understand what I'm about to state. For this reason precisely saints are more dependent on their pastor than God. Don't misunderstand me, I believe every man/women needs a pastor, but the problem lies when the congregant dials their pastor's number before petitioning an omnipotent immutable God! Many saints have failed reaching new spiritual dimensions, all due to their pastor's pastoral-ship.


Undoubtedly, certain pastors enjoy pastoring congregants who possess a pastoral dependency mentality. Many pastors draw their security from these types of congregants, and in doing so, these pastors build themselves a cankered pedestal and transform themselves into dictators. Also, congregants with this mentality are rendered more susceptible to pastoral manipulation (e.g. do what I say and not what I do leadership). In regards to pastors and employment, Paul clearly expressed his opinion on the matter:


Acts 20:
33) I have never coveted anyone’s silver or gold or fine clothes.
34) You know that these hands of mine have worked to supply my own needs and even the needs of those who were with me.
35) And I have been a constant example..........


2 Thessalonians 3:
7) For you know that you ought to imitate us......
8) We never accepted food from anyone without paying for it. We worked hard day and night so we would not be a burden to any of you.
9) We certainly had the right to ask you to feed us, but we wanted to give you an example to follow.
10) Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “Those unwilling to work will not get to eat.”


Whether our role is an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and/or teacher, I find those callings a privilege rather than an occupation. Paul's calling was an apostle while his occupation was a tent builder. I understand evangelist travel from church to church, city to city preaching the gospel. However, Phillip (Acts 21:8) traveled city to city preaching the gospel as an itinerant preacher, preaching the gospel to non-evangelized or non-church existing locations. So why does the role of a current evangelist consist of traveling from church to church? Why does the role from an ACTS evangelist differ from our modern day evangelist role?

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership?
 

Wow! Just.... WOW! Great thread!

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Wow! Just.... WOW! What a colossal waste of bandwidth!

A disigenuous misrepresentation of Paul's teaching on support for the ministry.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (AMP)

17 Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor [and of adequate financial support], especially those who labor faithfully in preaching and teaching.

18 For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain, and again, The laborer is worthy of his hire. [Deut 25:4; Luke 10:7.]


Philippians 4:14-17 (NIV)
14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. 17 Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account.


While Paul chose not to exercise his right to support, he did emphatically contend that he had a right of support from those he ministered to:

1 Corinthians 9:3-16 (NLT)

3 This is my answer to those who question my authority. 4 Don't we have the right to live in your homes and share your meals? 5 Don't we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other disciples and the Lord's brothers do, and as Peter does? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have to work to support ourselves?

7 What soldier has to pay his own expenses? What farmer plants a vineyard and doesn't have the right to eat some of its fruit? What shepherd cares for a flock of sheep and isn't allowed to drink some of the milk? 8 Am I expressing merely a human opinion, or does the law say the same thing? 9 For the law of Moses says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? 10 Wasn't he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.

11 Since we have planted spiritual seed among you, aren't we entitled to a harvest of physical food and drink? 12 If you support others who preach to you, shouldn't we have an even greater right to be supported? But we have never used this right. We would rather put up with anything than be an obstacle to the Good News about Christ.

13 Don't you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. 15 Yet I have never used any of these rights. And I am not writing this to suggest that I want to start now. In fact, I would rather die than lose my right to boast about preaching without charge.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Because the church as it exists right now is just a feel good thing for already churched people.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Well....let's start by examining what these scriptures DON'T say:

A. They do not say anything about MONEY
B. They do not say anything about TITHING

What they do is advocate some form of support to those who labor in the Gospel...I personally do not know ANYONE who is a true christian who would not want to help support the ministry.

Let's not forget verse 11 either, where Paul basically says he would rather "Put up with anything" then be an obsticle to the Good News"

Bottom line (Coming from a minister mind you); is that our AMERICANIZED way of "doing Church" is FAR different then in the Apostles day. With large buildings, expensive programs etc., etc., - they often do exactly the opposite of what Paul was talking about in this verse.

I don't think our brother on here was misrepresenting anything, nor did he say EVERY minister - I did not see any broad brushing going on here... it is a fact that not all pastors are choosen of the Good Shepherd - but are hirlings - that's not a stretch to say....it's a fact.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Concerning people who depend on the pastor... a lot of that is because of a person's personality. Some people just thrive on attention. They don't want to learn to depend upon God, they want the pastor patting their hand. As a pastor's kid, I've observed this so often. It's usually the same people always needing attention.

In all my years of church-going, I've only needed to "talk to the pastor" twice. Both situations were times when I needed outside mediation. I'm extremely independent, and running to someone else with my problems never occurs to me.

It's usually not that people don't learn to go to God with their problems, it's just that certain people have no intention of going to God first. They want attention right here on earth. ;)

A pastor can stay very, very busy with genuine needs, though.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Baloney!!!

I know of very few pastors that would do that! On the contrary, I have seen the opposite so my positive seeing cancels out your negative seeing and we are back to a nuetral!

I personally know that our Pastor has carried one family here, splitting his own paycheck, for over 8 months through this current recession. He has a rental house and they have stayed for free throughout this time.

He has taken food, countless times, so that they can eat. The man is working, yet he just can't find steady work!

I know of another situation where he helped a man out that was behind on his house payments. The problem was not that the man did not have the money, but that he was not being a wise steward of his money. The first time, Pastor helped him out. The scond time, Pastor let him sink knowing that was the only way the man might learn a lesson. The man did not want to learn what God was trying to show him, ie good stewardship.

Brother, you don't know the whole situation and, in defense of the ministry, I would have to say you are wrong until you can prove otherwise!

TJJJ

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Forget it these folks hate preachers. And could care less what the Bible says.
I have paid saint's rent, made car payments, bought them clothes, carried them groceries, took them to the doctor and aoid the bill, bought tires for their cars, fixed their transmissions, drove them across states to visit their sick relatives in hospitals, ran the tires off my car visiting hospitals-nursing homes, jails, senior saint's homes to check on them when their kids didn't have the time. Sorry this pushed my button.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Thank you.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Don't know I don't ask for help from the chuch if I got a problem I don't depend on the church to bail me out...LOL

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

This has been my experience with every pastor I've had. Some of the most giving people I've ever known in my life.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

I don't we should say pastors do such and such, we should say some pastors.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

This is an excellent response. Paul was encountering, early on, many people questioning his motives, so he went above and beyond on this issue to avoid that stigma.

Though we had this right, we have not availed ourselves of it, but have worked with our hands to bear our own charges, lest any of you should think that we preached the Gospel merely to procure a temporal support, and so be prejudiced against us, and thus prevent our success in the salvation of your souls.

I think 1C makes a good point about the role of the evangelist though.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Uh... read them again. Look up what was intended with the world "double honor". Come on guys. You can do better than this. Reading into the text... the part about hirelings, was not about being supported by giving. Is that how you interpret that really???

Also, don't throw in 10 points to make the case of 1. For example, many of us will agree large buildings have drawbacks, but when you include that in this argument, you cloud the simpleness of what we are talking about.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

1 Corinthians 9 says plenty on this -- and I'll post the Message translation. What's important to note is that Paul, to the Corinthians, voluntarily accepted nothing from them to help substantiate his ministry and influence to them. That he did that does not mean the ministry does not live off the giving. Interestingly, through, tithing is not mentioned in this Chapter where it would seem to naturally fit :)

1 Corinthians 9:3-14
I'm not shy in standing up to my critics. We who are on missionary assignments for God have a right to decent accommodations, and we have a right to support for us and our families. You don't seem to have raised questions with the other apostles and our Master's brothers and Peter in these matters. So, why me? Is it just Barnabas and I who have to go it alone and pay our own way? Are soldiers self-employed? Are gardeners forbidden to eat vegetables from their own gardens? Don't milkmaids get to drink their fill from the pail?

8-12I'm not just sounding off because I'm irritated. This is all written in the scriptural law. Moses wrote, "Don't muzzle an ox to keep it from eating the grain when it's threshing." Do you think Moses' primary concern was the care of farm animals? Don't you think his concern extends to us? Of course. Farmers plow and thresh expecting something when the crop comes in. So if we have planted spiritual seed among you, is it out of line to expect a meal or two from you? Others demand plenty from you in these ways. Don't we who have never demanded deserve even more?

12-14But we're not going to start demanding now what we've always had a perfect right to. Our decision all along has been to put up with anything rather than to get in the way or detract from the Message of Christ. All I'm concerned with right now is that you not use our decision to take advantage of others, depriving them of what is rightly theirs. You know, don't you, that it's always been taken for granted that those who work in the Temple live off the proceeds of the Temple, and that those who offer sacrifices at the altar eat their meals from what has been sacrificed? Along the same lines, the Master directed that those who spread the Message be supported by those who believe the Message.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

When you say "you have paid" do you mean a disbursement from the local assembly's treasury?

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

God help the spirits of men that aren't givers and spitefully harbor feelings of envy against ministry. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be the trend in churches. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't honor your ministry through giving, find you someone who you can, or move on.

I know ministers have gotten a rap at living the "resort lifestyle", but let's not start measuring them up and analyzing their once-a-week golfing game. In this great country of wealth, let them be able to have recreation, just as you have your outlet. Likewise, ministers ought to be conscious about the modesty of their living and always showing, as an example, what giving looks like.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Money he could have rightly kept for his own labors, that was given from the local assembly... and he gave it!

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

My father was a Pastor. He helped those he could, but couldn't help everyone who came. Before crucifying Pastor's who may not assist someone, I'd suggest taking into account the situation. There were times when a saint, such as the one mentioned in the first post, had a need but the church simply didn't have the resources to help.

My current Pastor worked FT until he was recently laid off due to the economy. The church has helped many people financially.

For the most part, Pastors I've known have been helpful depending on the need and ability to meet the need.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Before you go on a tangent I would suggest you reread my post. Furthermore, I'm skeptical of men who can address certain post and ignore others. I'm still awaiting your answer on our other thread. I've never seen a Pentecostal avoid my questions, but there's a first for everything.


I will now address other people's post on here.

Thank you and good day.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

The pastor who does not take from the church financially hurts the whole body. People are blessed when they are givers. Period. No better way to give to the Lord than to bless his servants; apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

I am wondering....
is it an example of a 'failing example' involving a pastoral leadership position to declare that the posters at AFF hate preachers?

If hatred is resident in the heart, that person is a murderer.
Hating preachers would make a person a murderer.

A declaration of this sort is extreme and could cause little ones to stumble.

Our failing examples should consider if we are accountable for the words we use.

Could thinking that "these folks hate preachers" be an example of a heart that has bitterness toward others?

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

UMMM.... Read my post AGAIN. I did not say or do I advocate NOT honoring or caring for the ministry......how much sense would that make when I am a licensed preacher myself????

I am thankful for true shepherds, I have sat under that, and the other - as many on this forum have. I am not a preacher hater, for crying out loud, I am one!!

I think this is just a hot button on BOTH sides, as the responses are full of animosity on both sides. Maybe we are all "reading" into this whole thread, some things about each other that are absolute speculation at best.

Just as you say that I am "reading" something into this portion of scripture...i have conversely seen this portion of scripture misrepresented on the other hand in church's as well.

Bottom line is that ministers...not JUST pastors, are worthy of double honor, and anyone benefitting from their service should help to care for them. We can't, however just ignore verse 11 just so we can stand on some soapbox and declare who is or is not a preacher hater etc.

Good grief...I'm sorry I posted on this thread.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

I believe there are more caring pastors,than uncaring ones.
Don't judge something till you know the whole situation.
Ministers live in fishbowls,and they can't make everybody happy.
I'm not a pastor,but if people tried pastoring I think they would be less critical of pastors.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

I haven't called anyone a "preacher hater." I'm suggesting the text was used incorrectly, in light of all the other scriptures on the same subject.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

I don't think anybody here is a pastor hater.
I don't feel though it's a sin to disagree with a pastor,as pastors are human too.
But to hate something that God has ordained like pastoring would be insane.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

I think that every Pastor should have an outside job to keep them in touch with the needs and schedules of those who carry full time positions.

It has been my experience, having been on both sides of the fence; that at one time my life was 'the church' and my expectations of the saints were irrational and many times unfair. Most households are two wage-earner households and the length of revivals, and attendance to every function at the church. Many saints fuss about many doing away with Sunday Night service, but I happen to agree with this. The difficult part is that in lui of not having a Sunday Night Service, they have Monday night Prayer, Tuesday night women's meeting, Wednesday night Bible Study, Youth ministries on Friday night, ect. which defeats the purpose of not having a Sunday night service.

The BEST I had seen this handled is at the UPCI church in Clearwater, FL. I enjoyed church more when it began Sunday Morning:
8-9 a.m. Leadership prayer
9-10 a.m. Choir practice and getting ready for class, cafe - coffeee & donuts
10-11 a.m. Sunday School classes, support groups, ect
11 a.m. Morning worhsip and evangelistic service.

We prayed before services in the sanctuary and it ushered in the presence of the Lord. Mid-week service was at a reasonable hour for those who worked, and any extra things were for that particular group only and did not involve the whole church.

I think this is one of the only churches I have been to that are so aware of the needs of the people to spend time at home [Monday being Family night for everyone at home], and limiting extra services to accommodate those who worked. They also limited the number of special meetings to quality ones in a specific time frame that would be beneficial and not financilly hurtful and keep the kids up late not allowing them to get rest for school.

I said all that to say: It is so much easier for Pastors who have worked or are working to meet the needs of the working class that fills out churches.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

You have been listening too much to Paula White, Steve Munsey, and ...

:blah

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

No he has a revelation on giving and his worship includes his wallet. Giving is powerful. It's not a "get rich" game, it's an attitude-shift. Money controls people's attitudes. The spirit of a giver never has that problem.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

GP I agree with you. It was used incorrect, IMO

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

LOL, Really....Paula White makes my skin crawl. I cant stand those long fingernails pointing at the screen and her saying "I have a Woooord for YOU." Vomit. And Munsey is just to weird for words. You forgot Tilton with "vow a vow" I saw him not long ago on TV.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

This is true that it does not say money or tithe. However clearly those that are working full time in the gospel do need support.

The main thing though that I believe is being over looked in the first post and the part I really agree with is the emphasis on a Pastor to be the one and only man to call when there is a need. Some pastors do have to work. Some pastors might be out of town. We need to realize that if you are a Holy Ghost filled saint you have the anointing.

Every saint is called to be a priest unto God and therefore be a minister (servant). We need to train the saints, the body and encourage the to be ministers. That does not mean necessarily being a pastor or even a pulpit preacher...which I think we have more than enough but far less than enough street preachers.

but sadly my experience in Christiandom is you have two classes, the ministers and the sheeple.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

LOL. Never heard that before but I am going to use it.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Glad I can be of service :-)

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

First, let me say I've met many pastors that I thought were controlling or with whom I did not agree. It's not a habit of mine to just give a pass because someone is a pastor.

That said, the vast, vast majority of pastors I have known, including some in my family, have been more like that shown in Elder Epley's post. I've seen them go out in all kinds of weather to help someone in need, leave family celebrations to take care of an "urgent" situation with someone, carry all kinds of food, school clothes, school supplies, etc. to those who were going through hard times, get on a plane and fly somewhere to comfort the family of a church member who had been killed while on vacation, and a 1000 other things to help someone in their church. For a true pastor, this seems to be their way.

It always irritates me that we expect pastors to be superheros in a cape and mask. We want them to not depend on the church for their livlihood, work full-time to support themselves, be the perfect example as a father, husband and citizen, and be available to the members of the church 24/7. Doesn't work that way.

I dare say very very very very few of us could come close to the standard we demand of pastors. And then, we get angry when they fail to perform as expected.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Stephanas,


Many pastors resort to the following scripture for financial support, but its highly unlikely this scripture solely directs financial support to pastors, due to the following reasons:

Galatians 6:6
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor


1)The "his instructor" within Galatians 6:6 doesn't refer exclusively to pastors, but could also be directed to local teachers of the gospel (see Acts 13:1 or Acts 15:35). If you're going to utilize Galatians 6:6 to justify pastoral salary, salaries should also be issued to local teachers and not pastors alone. How do you like them apples?


2) To share "all good things" doesn't define as continual provision. Remember, early bible churches were poor. It's absurd to think Paul would have commanded these poor churches to full-time salary one or all church elders. In reference to sharing all things, it defines as periodically sharing beneficial items (e.g. food, clothing, etc.). Extracting the validation of pastoral salaries from Galatians 6:6 is pure assumption, in the least! Once again, if this scripture validates pastoral salaries, it also validates additional salaries to all church teachers, etc.


The scripture below is referring to those who are "sent out." If you disagree, please post your rebuttal with scripture enforcing your belief. Remember, elders were stationed at one location while apostles traveled abroad preaching the gospel


1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel


In regards to:

1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.


Now, again, the church at Ephesus couldn't support a pastor, much-less the elders/pastors which were already appointed, prior to Paul's epistle. You indicated all elders are worthy of double honor? The scripture does indicate that "all" the elders who rule well were to receive double honor. Are you stating all elders/pastors should have a salary? Are you claiming the scripture interprets encourages full-time salary for pastor/elders? If yes, how many churches are you aware that practice this example towhich you claim is biblical?

During Paul's temporary 3 year stay at Ephesus, Paul stated he labored with his hands to provide for his necessities. Through these actions, Paul established a pattern for elders/pastors, which was hard labor with one’s hands to provide for oneself and others (Acts 20:33-35). Its difficult to believe Paul would have violated his example by demanding churches to pay a full-time salary for each elder/pastor/teacher! Also, for the record, I do believe in monetary support for our pastors. However, they should also follow Paul's example and not remain financially dependent on a group of people.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

This is such a load of garbage.

The overwhelming majority of pastors I know work a secular job, plus pastor the church full time.

The entire premise of this thread is built around megachurch pastors, of which there are very few.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

All of the small (50ish members or less) churches I've gone to have had full time pastors who have not held a secular job. None of these have been Apostolic, if that matters.

Edited to add the one Apostolic church I have attended. lol That pastor did work a full time job, but the church was a home mission plant and his intention was to quit working within 5 years.

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

I think you may be mistaken. I remember the time that we worked hard in a home mission church, working secular jobs to support it longing for the day it would be able to support us. When the day came that the church could support us then the saints/board members resented everything we owned and the money we made...and now I am content to NEVER let a church support me so they do not feel they have the right to control me and my spending habits.

The blackmail/emotional blackmail we sufferrred under threats of stopping tithe paying if we had drums in the church, or hired a Minister of Music. It is crippling to the work of God.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership
 

Rhoni I could not have said it better thats why I don't tithe and ask nothing of the church as far as money and I don't care what they do with the money cause ain't none of it mine that they are spending..