Hypothetical Moral Question
 

I was watching a movie today. 5 astronauts had crashed landed on Mars. Their positions broke down to the commander, a geologist, an astrobiologist, an engineer, and a doctor. Rescue would take a year to get there. There were enough resources for 2 people to live for a little over a year. 5 people could only live for 6 months. The commander had the doctor and the engineer stay, since they were the most vital. The engineer could keep the systems running and the doctor could keep both of them healthy until rescue arrived. The other three people volunteered to put on their space suits and leave, effectively committing killing themselves. Feel free to replace Mars within a location currently realistic.

Question: would this be considered suicide, and would you be able to morally do it to save the mission?

I know, useless question, but an interesting one, I think.

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

I'm just really bothered by the fact you watched a movie. How could you? What if the rapture had taken place white you were watching a Hollywood production?

No THERE'S the moral dilemma...will one go to heaven if one is watching TV when the rapture takes place?

But for posting a thread concerning a Hollywood production, you should be thrown off AFF!!

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

Soldiers have often taken up roles that were essentially suicide to increase the likelihood of mission accomplishment.

I'm reminded of a story about a nuclear physicist. While in the lab a piece of radio active material was suddenly exposed. To protect the group he grabbed it and isolated it fully knowing that the radiation he's absorb would kill him. He later died of radiation poisoning and cancer. But he saved the lives of his colleagues.

Jesus would be the primary example of one who willingly died to save others.

I don't think it's "suicide" in the sense that we understand it.

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

Your thinking of another forum:smack

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

So if one commits suicide, but the well-being of others is the driving force behind that suicide, then that suicide is not "unrepented of" murder, and therefore, not sinful?


What about old people who kill themselves because they no longer want to be a burden to their spouse or primary caregiver(s)? Are they now safe to kill themselves at will?

They have the good of their loved ones at heart and one less sickly elderly person is one less medical responsibility that tax payers will not have to subsidize.


Maybe that's the key to solving the nation's economic woes-- every person who is a drain to society financially should just kill themselves for the good of the nation!

Can you imagine....

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

Jermyn

You might not be as far off as you think. Britain is getting very close to assisted suicides, other nations are already there.

With this new health plan in place by your president it might just be one of the options.

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

I agree 100%. Giving one's life to save another or many other lives is not suicide. It is taking action that results in ones death but without one wishing death to be the result of the action.

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

My wife often says that we treat our pets more humanely than we treat our fellow humans. We have a pet "put to sleep" when they have something incurable so they can "avoid suffering" or to "put them out of their misery" but we do not do that for our family members when they are in those circumstances.

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

Assisted Suicide has been voted on in some of our states. I don't remember which ones and what the results have been.

Holland has used a system of euthanization for some time to clear out nursing homes and make room for new residents. From what I understand the decision of who to eliminate/kill is made by a physician or administrator and the patient has no say in the matter and is not informed of the action. I don't know if family members are informed either before or after the action.

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

I'm sure you're already aware of this, but just in case......I was being just SLIGHTLY sarcastic.

Can I just ask...is there the suggestion here that any person who commits suicide (the depression kind, giving up hope kind) is lost for eternity? Depression is real and we're all just a slight alteration of a chemical away from being completely despondent.

And if so, what is the scriptural basis for that opinion?

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

Mitchell Red Cloud, Jr.

Mitchell Red Cloud, Jr. was a Winnebago (now known as the Ho-Chunk) Indian from Wisconsin. I remember hearing about him when I was a kid living in Wisconsin.

His parents, Mitchell "Mike" Red Cloud Sr. and Lillian (Nellie) Winneshiek, were married August 14, 1923. Mitchell Jr. was born July 2, 1924 (the year the U.S. Government first conferred citizenship on American Indian people), near Hatfield in Jackson County, Wisconsin. His father was a descendent of DeCarrie, a French nobleman, and Glory-of-the-Morning, daughter of a Winnebago Chief. There were three sons, Mitchell Jr., Merlin, and Randall, and one daughter in the family. All three sons later entered the military service, and their father had served in World War I.

As a youth, Mitchell hunted and fished on the ancestral lands of his birth, known as Jackson County, Wisconsin. The land was unsuited for anything but hunting. Some hard-scrabble farms survived somehow and the lead mines that had drawn white settlers decades before had petered out. Red Cloud’s education began at the Clay and Komensky Rural School, a few miles from Hatfield, where he was born. He continued at the Winnebago Indian School in Neillsville for a year. After attending Black River Falls High School for two years, he dropped out in 1941 and, with his father’s permission, joined the Marines on August 11 at the age of 16. He later received his high school diploma while in the service.

Red Cloud was in the Marine Corps from 1941 to 1945. He was stationed at San Diego, California during the attack on Pearl Harbor. He applied and soon became a member of the Marine Corps Raiders, which corresponds to British Commandos. In May 1943, he sailed from the continental United States to Pearl Harbor and from there to Midway Island. It was back to Pearl Harbor for a short while and then on from one battle in the Pacific to another.

Red Cloud fought as a machine gunner with Carlson's Marine Corps Raiders in the second wave on Guadalcanal. He was in some of the hardest and heaviest fighting in the Pacific Islands at the beginning of World War II. The enemy Japanese soldiers would rather die than surrender, and they did so at a ratio of about 20 to one American. Of 900 Americans, only 22 were lost in this campaign. It took 16 days of heavy fighting to reach their objective.

The Pacific campaigns took a toll on Red Cloud. He contracted malaria and dropped from 195 to 115 pounds in weight. On May 17. 1945, the war ended abruptly for him when he took a bullet in his left shoulder. He was evacuated to Guam. In December 1945, Red Cloud was handed $56.70 and was honorably discharged from the Marines. He was offered a medical discharge, which he refused.

In 1948, after his brother, Randall, was killed while serving in the U.S. Army, Red Cloud joined the U.S. Army and left home again.

As a member of the U.S. Army, Red Cloud was sent to Korea in 1950 with E Company, 19th Infantry Regiment, 24th Infantry Division. On 5 November 1950, Red Cloud was on a ridge guarding his company command post when he was surprised by Chinese communist forces. He sounded the alarm and stayed in his position firing his automatic rifle point-blank to check the assault. He emptied magazine after magazine into the charging men and watched as they crumpled and fell before him. His action stopped the attack and gave Captain Conway time to call in illuminating rounds before organizing his defense. Red Cloud was hit twice in the chest and his assistant was killed outright. The Second Platoon medic, Perry Woodley, rushed to Red Cloud’s foxhole and applied field dressings to his wounds. This gave his company time to consolidate their defenses. After being severely wounded by enemy fire, he refused assistance and continued firing upon the enemy until he was fatally wounded. His heroic action prevented the enemy from overrunning his company's position and gained time for evacuation of the wounded.

U.S. Army Cpl. Mitchell Red Cloud Jr. was later honored with the military's highest honor for his fearless and heroic deeds that saved his comrades and cost him his life.

According to a report of the incident, "From his (Red Cloud's) position on the point of a ridge immediately in front of the company command post, he was the first to detect the approach of the Chinese Communist forces and give the alarm as the enemy charged from a brush-covered area less than 100 feet from him."

"Springing up, he delivered devastating point-blank automatic rifle fire into the advancing enemy. His accurate and intense fire checked this assault and gained time for the company to consolidate its defense."

"With utter fearlessness he maintained his firing position until severely wounded by enemy fire. Refusing assistance, he pulled himself to his feet and wrapped his arm around a tree, (and) continued his deadly fire until fatally wounded."

It has been told that eight bullets hit him before he died. He was 26 years old. It was for his heroic action during the Korean War that he received the military's highest award, The Medal of Honor. Red Cloud was the eighth man to receive the award during the Korean War. His picture appeared on the cover of Life Magazine in 1951.

The Medal of Honor citation signed by President Harry S. Truman describes Red Cloud's gallantry before losing his life. Gen. Omar Bradley presented the award to Red Cloud's mother in a ceremony April 3, 1951, at the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. She had traveled there with her one surviving son, Merlin.

Red Cloud had a distinguished military career as he also received a Purple Heart for duty in Korea, as well as two Purple Hearts for service with the Marines in World War II.

Red Cloud's remains were kept in Korea until he was returned for final burial in the United States March 26, 1955. In March of 1955, in a defining moment in the memorializing of Red Cloud, a burial service was held at the Decorah Cemetery located at the Ho Chunk Mission outside of Black River Falls. Red Cloud’s family had requested the return of his body from its original burial place in Korea. In a unique confluence of US military honors, ancient HoChunk traditions, and the trappings of a Christian funeral, final honors were conferred on Red Cloud and he was laid to rest along side his father and his brother Randall. Mitchell Whiterabbit, pastor of the mission church, eloquently spoke for the community: "A son, a brother, a comrade, and a friend has returned . . . No more will he be called upon to leave us, for he has come back to rest in peace . . . Because Mitchell Red Cloud, Jr. belongs to that select few of valiant men, we today are gathered here to render unto him the tribute which he rightfully earned on the field of battle." Pastor Whiterabbit also shared a telegram that he received from President Eisenhower regarding the occasion of Mitchell’s burial: "I join with those who unite in tribute to the memory of Corporal Mitchell Red Cloud, Jr. His heroism has reflected lasting honor on the community which he loved and the country for which he gave his life." He is buried near where he lived as a boy and where his people had lived for years. His great-grandfather, the legendary Ho-Chunk warrior Chief Winneshiek, had fled southern Wisconsin after the Blackhawk War in 1832. Winneshiek eventually led a group of his people to the Black River Valley where descendants remain to this day. There is a memorial erected with the following inscription: "The son of a Winnebago chief and warriors who believe that when a man goes into battle, he expects to kill or be killed and if he dies he will live forever."

Mitchell Red Cloud Jr. was a hero. Hanging from a tree, he willingly gave his life so that others could live. This is the epitome of human love. Jesus said, “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). However, I can think of an even greater love than that. Hanging from a tree, Jesus willingly gave His life for us so that we can live eternally and we weren’t even His friends.
“When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good. But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.”
Romans 5:6-8

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

I remember an old saying, John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

I've heard this too but I was also told that this is an urban legend. I'm curious as to if this is true, any reliable sources?

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

Maybe the question should be ... "any reliable sources still living?":thumbsup


Maybe we ought to check snopes! Seems like they have kinda become the authority on this forum lately on other threads!

Re: Hypothetical Moral Question
 

Here is what I found with my google-fu:

http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/hollaw.htm

http://www.euthanasia.cc/dutch.html

In reference to Snopes, a lot people use it because (for the most part) they provide source material and a lot of their information can be gathered from multiple other places. As with everything, one shouldn't get all your info from any one source