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-   -   You Are Being Divisive! (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=25257)

mizpeh 07-25-2009 06:10 PM
You Are Being Divisive!
 
Why is it that when someone challenges a traditional teaching/practice, he is often labeled as “divisive” or a “troublemaker,” and is summarily dismissed? It may be true that the individual has a divisive attitude or is acting in a troublesome manner, but the attitude in which he dissents or questions a particular doctrine/practice is separate from the arguments he presents against it. Someone may be the biggest jerk on the planet, but their attitude has nothing to do with whether their arguments are valid, and their beliefs correct. Simply pointing out their bad attitude does not answer the question of what is true, nor does it excuse us from interacting with their arguments. Labeling and dismissing those who question the mainstream view is often just a power play, usually employed by those without a rebutting argument. It’s a way of avoiding discussion, and having to defend their own point of view.

We always need to be open to the possibility that the person who challenges some traditional teaching/practice may be right, and the traditional teaching/practice may be wrong. If he is right, then he would not be divisive, but a unifier. Unifying what you may ask? Unifying the church with truth. What divides the church is not the person who challenges a particular teaching, but the false teaching itself. We often determine who the divisive party is by counting heads, but this is fallacious. Truth is determined by reasons, not head counts. As William Durant said, “Truth always originates in a minority of one, and every custom begins as a broken precedent.” Indeed, if truth was determined by head count, then those of us who hold to a Unitarian view of God must be mistaken, because our view is a minority view in Christendom. We ought to remember that before we crucify those among us who question an accepted view.

I think part of the reason we tend to dismiss dissenters is because there is this prevailing attitude among us that “we have the truth.” I agree that we have the truth in a basic sense, but this does not mean we have all the truth. We do not. There is always more to learn, and always areas of thought that we need to either change or refine. If we recognize our continued room for intellectual and spiritual growth, and the possibility that we might be mistaken in some of our beliefs, then we are only doing ourselves a disservice by shooting down those who question the mainstream. Let’s hear the dissenters out. They may have something to teach us.

http://theosophical.wordpress.com/20...ive/#more-1564

*AQuietPlace* 07-25-2009 06:27 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
You are SO correct! I have never understood why questioning is so frowned upon in OP circles. It is immediately assumed that you are "backsliding" if you admit that you question some pet doctrines. It's been one of the greatest frustrations of my life.

If truth is truth, it will withstand questioning. If it won't withstand questioning... perhaps it's not truth?

hometown guy 07-25-2009 06:33 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 777974)
You are SO correct! I have never understood why questioning is so frowned upon in OP circles. It is immediately assumed that you are "backsliding" if you admit that you question some pet doctrines. It's been one of the greatest frustrations of my life.

If truth is truth, it will withstand questioning. If it won't withstand questioning... perhaps it's not truth?
I dont know what kind of churches you have been to but I love when I get Question about our stand in our local church.

Irreligious 07-25-2009 06:35 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 777968)
Why is it that when someone challenges a traditional teaching/practice, he is often labeled as “divisive” or a “troublemaker,” and is summarily dismissed? It may be true that the individual has a divisive attitude or is acting in a troublesome manner, but the attitude in which he dissents or questions a particular doctrine/practice is separate from the arguments he presents against it. Someone may be the biggest jerk on the planet, but their attitude has nothing to do with whether their arguments are valid, and their beliefs correct. Simply pointing out their bad attitude does not answer the question of what is true, nor does it excuse us from interacting with their arguments. Labeling and dismissing those who question the mainstream view is often just a power play, usually employed by those without a rebutting argument. It’s a way of avoiding discussion, and having to defend their own point of view.

We always need to be open to the possibility that the person who challenges some traditional teaching/practice may be right, and the traditional teaching/practice may be wrong. If he is right, then he would not be divisive, but a unifier. Unifying what you may ask? Unifying the church with truth. What divides the church is not the person who challenges a particular teaching, but the false teaching itself. We often determine who the divisive party is by counting heads, but this is fallacious. Truth is determined by reasons, not head counts. As William Durant said, “Truth always originates in a minority of one, and every custom begins as a broken precedent.” Indeed, if truth was determined by head count, then those of us who hold to a Unitarian view of God must be mistaken, because our view is a minority view in Christendom. We ought to remember that before we crucify those among us who question an accepted view.

I think part of the reason we tend to dismiss dissenters is because there is this prevailing attitude among us that “we have the truth.” I agree that we have the truth in a basic sense, but this does not mean we have all the truth. We do not. There is always more to learn, and always areas of thought that we need to either change or refine. If we recognize our continued room for intellectual and spiritual growth, and the possibility that we might be mistaken in some of our beliefs, then we are only doing ourselves a disservice by shooting down those who question the mainstream. Let’s hear the dissenters out. They may have something to teach us.

http://theosophical.wordpress.com/20...ive/#more-1564

Mizpeh,

I must admit that you caught me off guard with this. I wouldn't have expected this and I think you just made my day.

History and the Bible is FULL of people who changed the world by dissenting, bucking the system, and refusing to accept things the way they were.

Bible:
Elihu, David (battle with Goliath), Moses, Paul, most of all, Jesus.

History:
Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Jr., Bill Hybels, many others.

Thanks Mizpeh.

Irreligious 07-25-2009 06:37 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 777974)
You are SO correct! I have never understood why questioning is so frowned upon in OP circles. It is immediately assumed that you are "backsliding" if you admit that you question some pet doctrines. It's been one of the greatest frustrations of my life.

If truth is truth, it will withstand questioning. If it won't withstand questioning... perhaps it's not truth?

I hate to sound like an idiot here, but.....I've seen you say "OP" several times. Can you enlighten me?

*AQuietPlace* 07-25-2009 06:37 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometown guy (Post 777976)
I dont know what kind of churches you have been to but I love when I get Question about our stand in our local church.
Do you love it if they disagree with you after you explain it? :)

*AQuietPlace* 07-25-2009 06:37 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irreligious (Post 777979)
I hate to sound like an idiot here, but.....I've seen you say "OP" several times. Can you enlighten me?
Oneness Pentecostal

Evang.Benincasa 07-25-2009 06:41 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irreligious (Post 777979)
I hate to sound like an idiot here, but.....I've seen you say "OP" several times. Can you enlighten me?

Irreligious 07-25-2009 06:43 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 777984)
That's pretty funny.

Irreligious 07-25-2009 06:43 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 777980)
Do you love it if they disagree with you after you explain it? :)

Oh wow, what a GREAT question. Ouch.

hometown guy 07-25-2009 06:48 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 777980)
Do you love it if they disagree with you after you explain it? :)
Of course I Don’t love it. But I know If there Heart is right God will help me to direct them.

*AQuietPlace* 07-25-2009 06:54 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometown guy (Post 777990)
Of course I Don’t love it. But I know If there Heart is right God will help me to direct them.
;)

rgcraig 07-25-2009 08:07 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Great post Miz!

Irreligious 07-25-2009 08:09 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometown guy (Post 777990)
Of course I Don’t love it. But I know If there Heart is right God will help me to direct them.
Love your answer.

I don't mean to add to your answer, but I think I've experienced God leading me even if...maybe especially if.....their heart ISN'T right.

I LOVE engaging in constructive dialogue with atheists and people who are anti-Christian. One of the greatest changes that has ever occurred in my life was when I set out to develop as many authentic relationships as possible with angry, anti-church, anti-Christian people and atheists. I've learned SO much and the Holy Spirit has done all the things that I could have never done.

mizpeh 07-25-2009 09:29 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irreligious (Post 777978)
Mizpeh,

I must admit that you caught me off guard with this. I wouldn't have expected this and I think you just made my day.

History and the Bible is FULL of people who changed the world by dissenting, bucking the system, and refusing to accept things the way they were.

Bible:
Elihu, David (battle with Goliath), Moses, Paul, most of all, Jesus.

History:
Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Jr., Bill Hybels, many others.

Thanks Mizpeh.
Jason Dulle wrote that article and posted it on his blog. I agree with him.

Irreligious, you barely know anything about me except that I believe Spirit baptism is evidenced by speaking in other tongues. I might surprise you on a few other things.

mizpeh 07-25-2009 09:31 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 778027)
Great post Miz!
I wish I could take the credit but Jason Dulle wrote it.

CC1 07-25-2009 11:43 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 777968)
Why is it that when someone challenges a traditional teaching/practice, he is often labeled as “divisive” or a “troublemaker,” and is summarily dismissed? It may be true that the individual has a divisive attitude or is acting in a troublesome manner, but the attitude in which he dissents or questions a particular doctrine/practice is separate from the arguments he presents against it. Someone may be the biggest jerk on the planet, but their attitude has nothing to do with whether their arguments are valid, and their beliefs correct. Simply pointing out their bad attitude does not answer the question of what is true, nor does it excuse us from interacting with their arguments. Labeling and dismissing those who question the mainstream view is often just a power play, usually employed by those without a rebutting argument. It’s a way of avoiding discussion, and having to defend their own point of view.

We always need to be open to the possibility that the person who challenges some traditional teaching/practice may be right, and the traditional teaching/practice may be wrong. If he is right, then he would not be divisive, but a unifier. Unifying what you may ask? Unifying the church with truth. What divides the church is not the person who challenges a particular teaching, but the false teaching itself. We often determine who the divisive party is by counting heads, but this is fallacious. Truth is determined by reasons, not head counts. As William Durant said, “Truth always originates in a minority of one, and every custom begins as a broken precedent.” Indeed, if truth was determined by head count, then those of us who hold to a Unitarian view of God must be mistaken, because our view is a minority view in Christendom. We ought to remember that before we crucify those among us who question an accepted view.

I think part of the reason we tend to dismiss dissenters is because there is this prevailing attitude among us that “we have the truth.” I agree that we have the truth in a basic sense, but this does not mean we have all the truth. We do not. There is always more to learn, and always areas of thought that we need to either change or refine. If we recognize our continued room for intellectual and spiritual growth, and the possibility that we might be mistaken in some of our beliefs, then we are only doing ourselves a disservice by shooting down those who question the mainstream. Let’s hear the dissenters out. They may have something to teach us.

http://theosophical.wordpress.com/20...ive/#more-1564
You are obviously rebellious and have "gone charismatic" so your thread should be deleted and you should be banned.:thumbsup

KWSS1976 07-27-2009 07:34 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
I think that some stretch the bible verses and when someone questions them about it they get defensive. I myself have been told on a number of times to go pray and reread the scripture..Been there one that still come up with the same results...my thoughts did not changed when I prayed...TRUST NO ONE AND ASSUME NOTHING......AND ALWAYS ASK QUESTIONS..

KWSS1976 07-27-2009 07:41 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
I will use an example the (uncut hair standard)..take that scripture and break it down and study it you will not come up with uncut hair anywhere in there..used to when you ask a OP about it they would run to that scripture..now that people start asking questions about it..they turned it into God Convicted them they don't go and run behind there scripture anymore cause it does not talk about a women not being able to cut her hair

coadie 07-27-2009 07:53 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
I offer 2 points about the charge of divisiveness.

The first point is the use of a logical fallacy. "I am correct and right and if you disagree with me, it has to because you are divisive because every one that knows, knows I am correct"
Darwinists keep creation out of schools because it is done against their science they claim and to be divisive.

The other point is a charge of divisiveness is set to make someone defensive. It adds an argument top the original argument.

"you are divisive"
"no I am Not"
"O yes you are divisive"

"prove you are not divisive!!!"

All the posts about the harvard/cambridge cop arrest row where around a charge of deliberate divisiveness.

coadie 07-27-2009 08:00 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KWSS1976 (Post 778405)
I will use an example the (uncut hair standard)..take that scripture and break it down and study it you will not come up with uncut hair anywhere in there..used to when you ask a OP about it they would run to that scripture..now that people start asking questions about it..they turned it into God Convicted them they don't go and run behind there scripture anymore cause it does not talk about a women not being able to cut her hair
Dr Seagraves did exactly that. In use of original languages and bible study, his findings were about women not cutting their hair. His conclusions were regarding cutting or not cutting. Some african ladies have shorter hair. They can't make it long, but they can control themselves by not cutting it.

KWSS1976 07-27-2009 08:22 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Post link on Seagraves study on this please

TheLegalist 07-27-2009 08:29 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 777974)
You are SO correct! I have never understood why questioning is so frowned upon in OP circles. It is immediately assumed that you are "backsliding" if you admit that you question some pet doctrines. It's been one of the greatest frustrations of my life.

If truth is truth, it will withstand questioning. If it won't withstand questioning... perhaps it's not truth?
Oh yes... I mean Oneness circles only do this..... LOL! seriously people.... GET OUT OF YOUR BOX that only OP's argue and divide and don't like questioning traditional views! Baptists are some of the worst. THe whole of evangelical Christianity is constantly dividing overstuff. Though this was not probably what you meant it tends to be the attitude more that I read this board.

crakjak 07-27-2009 08:31 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 777968)
Why is it that when someone challenges a traditional teaching/practice, he is often labeled as “divisive” or a “troublemaker,” and is summarily dismissed? It may be true that the individual has a divisive attitude or is acting in a troublesome manner, but the attitude in which he dissents or questions a particular doctrine/practice is separate from the arguments he presents against it. Someone may be the biggest jerk on the planet, but their attitude has nothing to do with whether their arguments are valid, and their beliefs correct. Simply pointing out their bad attitude does not answer the question of what is true, nor does it excuse us from interacting with their arguments. Labeling and dismissing those who question the mainstream view is often just a power play, usually employed by those without a rebutting argument. It’s a way of avoiding discussion, and having to defend their own point of view.

We always need to be open to the possibility that the person who challenges some traditional teaching/practice may be right, and the traditional teaching/practice may be wrong. If he is right, then he would not be divisive, but a unifier. Unifying what you may ask? Unifying the church with truth. What divides the church is not the person who challenges a particular teaching, but the false teaching itself. We often determine who the divisive party is by counting heads, but this is fallacious. Truth is determined by reasons, not head counts. As William Durant said, “Truth always originates in a minority of one, and every custom begins as a broken precedent.” Indeed, if truth was determined by head count, then those of us who hold to a Unitarian view of God must be mistaken, because our view is a minority view in Christendom. We ought to remember that before we crucify those among us who question an accepted view.

I think part of the reason we tend to dismiss dissenters is because there is this prevailing attitude among us that “we have the truth.” I agree that we have the truth in a basic sense, but this does not mean we have all the truth. We do not. There is always more to learn, and always areas of thought that we need to either change or refine. If we recognize our continued room for intellectual and spiritual growth, and the possibility that we might be mistaken in some of our beliefs, then we are only doing ourselves a disservice by shooting down those who question the mainstream. Let’s hear the dissenters out. They may have something to teach us.

http://theosophical.wordpress.com/20...ive/#more-1564
Very well said, Mizpeh!! I agree with you. :thumbsup

*AQuietPlace* 07-27-2009 09:20 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegalist (Post 778430)
Oh yes... I mean Oneness circles only do this..... LOL! seriously people.... GET OUT OF YOUR BOX that only OP's argue and divide and don't like questioning traditional views! Baptists are some of the worst. THe whole of evangelical Christianity is constantly dividing overstuff. Though this was not probably what you meant it tends to be the attitude more that I read this board.
Yes, I know that all denominations do it. But since we pride ourselves on having THE TRUTH, why are we so afraid of questions?

KWSS1976 07-27-2009 09:23 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
There ya have it THE LEGALIST AQP even admits it..its The book of Acts or hell...O don't worry about the other books in the bible they don't mean anything...

*AQuietPlace* 07-27-2009 09:28 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KWSS1976 (Post 778444)
There ya have it THE LEGALIST AQP even admits it..its The book of Acts or hell...O don't worry about the other books in the bible they don't mean anything...
Are you in the same conversation as the rest of us?

KWSS1976 07-27-2009 09:30 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Yea I am in the same conversaton

mizpeh 07-27-2009 10:27 AM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 778432)
Very well said, Mizpeh!! I agree with you. :thumbsup
The op was a cut and paste from Jason Dulle's blog. I agree with him as well!

GrowingPains 07-27-2009 12:59 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 778449)
Are you in the same conversation as the rest of us?
:ursofunny

Scott Hutchinson 07-27-2009 01:02 PM
Re: You Are Being Divisive!
 
If we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith,or not ?
Then would certainly would have to ask questions about somethings to determine wheter they are in the true Christian faith or not.


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