Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

OneAccord brings some interesting thoughts that I think deserve it's own thread for discussion.

I don't think of Satan as some anti-god who has equal but opposite power as God. What God does for good, Satan can do for evil. If God can heal, Satan can make sick. If God fills with the Holy Ghost, Satan can possess. God talks, the devil talks, and so on. If that were true then Satan would be God's equal only at the opposite pole. And God has no equal.

Satans only weapon, IMO, against us is the power to decieve. If Satan can convince us he has this great and terrible power over us, then, well, he DOES have this great and terrible power over us. Deception is his only tool, and its very effective.

The story of Job is a good example. Satan, with God's permission, killed all of Jobs children, took all he had, and inflicted him with boils. Did he? Really?

In the end of the Book, Job had all his kids and his possessions. All was well, because none of it was actually taken in the first place. "And there came a MESSENGER unto Job, and said..." Job 1:14. Job heard, and believed, these messengers, became distraught, and hives, which erupted into boils, broke out on his body. The fact is, IMO, Job believed a lie. The reason for it all? To help Job discover his human fallacy of self-righteouness. Yes, even "perfect people" have faults, Job's was that he was a little too self-righteous. He spent alot of time talking about HIS "goodness" and HIS "righteousness". (In addition, there was a good deal of self-pity there too.) Job's victory was when he finally said, "Wherefore I abhor (hate) myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (42:6). If Job was so perfect, there would have been no need for him to repent. Once his "flaw" was discovered and corrected his trial ended.

But I'm off the topic. Satan deceived Job. Satan decieved Eve. If the devil can make people think he can possess them, then, he can. Or make them sick. Or do evil things. Its all deception. Read 2 Thess. 2:9-12, Eph. 4:14

Deception is a powerful tool. But many Christians (and Hollywood) has given Satan much more power than he really has.

Well, no, not exactly. I'm saying that, IMO, there was no "two sets of children". The children of the first chapter are the same children of the last chapter. 7 sons, 3 daughters. (1:2, 42:13). They never died. Job was only TOLD that they had died. No where in the Book of Job do we find evidence that had, in fact, died. Jobs substance (ie, livestock ) was doubled, but not his children. They were yet alive.

I believe this for a couple of reasons. Mainly because I don't think God, in his love and mercy, would allow Satan to kill Job's children in order to "win a bet" with the devil. The Bible says that Satans demons can and do transform themselves into "angels of light" for the purpose of deception. These messengers that informed Job of his calamities were just that... false messengers that decieved Job into thinking he had lost it all... including his children, who were all away at the time at the eldest sons house (1:13). How convenient it is for Satan to decieve when people are divided and separated. 1 Cor. 3:3

Compare the story of Job with 1 Kings 22:20-22. Satan, and, apparently sometimes God, uses evil spirits to decieve people in order to acheive a means.

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

No, I find no evidence in the Scripture that supports the belief Job's children died in Job 1. I do find evidence that Satan decieved Job, and that theme is thru out the Bible. Satan, IMO, has NO power but to decieve. And does so thru what ever means is available to him, including false preachers and teachers.

Jobs boils? Hives. (2:7) Caused by extreme anxiety and remorse. I developed hives when my wife became sick. Two things relieved the itching: 1) Scratching (a "potsherd" would have been a great relief from the itching, but would have caused sores (boils). And 2) Powder. Job used ashes for relief, I used some kind of medicated powder.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

A quiet place responded:

That's an interesting theory. I've always had difficulty with the idea of God killing Job's children, and then giving him more. To me, it wouldn't matter how many more children I had, children are not replaceable.

These verses, though, makes it seem as though he had 'different' children, because it talks about him naming them:

12And the LORD blessed(Q) the latter days of Job more than his beginning. And he had(R) 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 yoke of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13He had also(S) seven sons and three daughters. 14And he called the name of the first daughter Jemimah, and the name of the second Keziah, and the name of the third Keren-happuch. 15And in all the land there were no women so beautiful as Job’s daughters. And their father gave them an inheritance(T) among their brothers. 16And after this Job lived 140 years, and(U) saw his sons, and his sons’ sons, four generations. 17And Job died, an old man, and(V) full of days.

Doesn't necessarily refute your theory, just interesting wording.

What about his property losses? It was a messenger that told of those losses, too, right?

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

OA response:

Now this is an interesting discussion. This is why I come to AFF. Job started out with 7000 sheep, 3000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen (500 x 2 = 1000) and 500 she donkeys (Sorry some things I just won't type, my "conservatism" is showing!) He ended up with twice that. Simple. What was the purpose of all that substance? To get more substance. Those who tended Jobs livestock did exactly what they were suppose to do... buy sell, trade, etc., to get more substance. And, they obviously did quite well. The messengers SAID his livestock was taken. How do we know they were?

The naming. Job named only his DAUGHTERS in Job 42:14. Actually, I suspect he RENAMED his daughters which for some reason unknown to me, was a usual occurance in Bible times. Eve was not even given her name until AFTER the fall. She was originally called WOMAN (taken from man). After the fall, she became EVE (mother of all living- which brings up another point, but not here). Abrahams wife was Saria, until God promised she would have children (Sarah). Names were often changed AFTER some major event in a persons life. Jacob became Israel, Abram became Abraham, etc. The significance of the names of Jobs daughters? I don't know... I'd have work real hard to be that smart.

Interesting discussion. And I think Timmy said something that is worth considering. Maybe the Book of Job is a parable. An allegory to make a deeper point. I don't really think so, but Timmy could be right... He's pretty smart....

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

OA response:
Jobs daughters:

Jemina- "handsome as the day"
Kezia- superficies, the angle, (?) cassia (a bark that had a cinimon like aroma)
Keren-happich- the horn, child of beauty

Taken from http://www.christianityoasis.com/Keyword/BibleNames.htm

Perhaps, after his ordeal, Job had a renewed apprecaition for life and his family. He renamed them to express this new appreciation? Just a thought. My grandsons name is Seth. We call him "Little man". Maybe Job gave his daughters a nick name.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

OA response:
Wow, this discussion, which, BTW, seems to have drifted from Timmy's orginal intent. (Sorry, Bro!) has got me to thinking. (I do that on occasion). Job was a perfect man. Yet, if I read the story right, I see some character flaws (self-righteousness and pity, a little judgmentalism). So maybe he wasn't so perfect afterall. But God said he was...and who am I to argue with God? Unless God ses perfection differently than I do.

I read somewhere that Michealangelo (Sorry, Mike's not from around here, so spelling may be off) once said that an uncut piece of stone was a perfect work of art. He said that because, until it is cut into, that stone has the potential of becoming anything he can make it into.

Sometimes, I think God sees us that way. As an uncut stone, willing to be molded into whatever He chooses us to be. In God's eyes we are perfect when we are willing to become nothing more than a lump of clay in the potters hands. We begin perfect... but become even more perfect by His touch. A diamond in the rough is perfect in its natural state. It takes the hands of a Master to let that diamond be seen. Job, too, was perfect in that he loved God and hated evil. Can anyone but Job be any more perfect than that? Loving God is to put your life into His hands and say, "Here I am, Lord... mold me". Oh, Lordy, I believe I'm gonna have me a spell!!!

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I'm glad you started this thread, I was going to start a similar one.


My question - could the book of Job be a parable?

Is there anyone who would have a big problem with it being considered a parable, if so, why?

From some reading that I did yesterday, it seems that some scholars of the Talmud believed it was a parable.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I would have no problem at all and, in fact, I lean toward it being a parable, not because of the research, but because it contradicts the nature of God we see throughout the Bible. Sorry to be cynical, but I'm waiting for the crazies to show up and bomb you and the others for even suggesting this.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I have no problem with it being a literal story or a parable. I also do not believe it, in any way, contradicts God's nature. The whole point and lesson of Job is summed up in the last few chapters with all of the versus that begin "Where were you....?".
It is God trying to describe to him that he (and us) simply cannot understand His nature and His reasons. He HAS reasons, but for Him to vocalize them and try to get us to understand them is not unlike us trying to teach Hindu philosophy to a amoeba or bacterium. In both cases it is nothing but frustration to the one doing the explaining.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I've never heard anyone claim Satan has equal power to God....

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Or maybe it was a true story, but embellished a little to teach a lesson.

BTW parables are based on real life examples (not necessarily a real historical event)

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

per your quote it does not make since to send satan to hell and let him keep the power God let him have..

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Actually, he was cast out of heaven and made prince of the air (the Earth).... He hasn't been sent to hell, per say, yet.

Makes me wonder if he has any influence on any other worlds out there. Mmmmmmmm

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

what exactly does that have to do with my post?

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Well, thank you, Esther, for reviving a very good discussion. Actually, it was Timmy who brought up the thought that the Book of Job could be an allegory. I've heard that before and it is worth considering. It could have been. Whether it was a viable historical event or a parable doesn't take away from the fact that it is an important Book that has significant spiritual applications. And it does teach us a great deal about the heart and nature of God.

My point was that, while we have been taught all of our lives that Job's children died in the first chapter, I find no evidence to support that conclusion. My theory, and its just that- a therory- is that Job was lied to concerning his children. They did not die. Satan deceived Job for the purpose of "testing" his loyalty to God. This brings up the reason we have trials and tribulations. To strengthen our resolve to remain loyal to God and to help us see, and correct, our human fallacies. This was the case with Job. thru out the Book, Job refers to HIS goodness, HIS righteousness about 200 times. In the end, his real victory was that he came to hate himself (his human nature) and caused him to repent of it. Thats the purpose of the Book, IMO. To help us do some self-inspection, or as the NT writer put it, to "examine our selves to see whether we be in the faith". tThe Book of Job is just that: Jobs self-examination to ferret out those human fallacies that could lead to disloyalty to God.

The root of the whole discussion was Timmy's questions regarding Satan's power. I submitted that Satan's one and only power is to decieve. Deception is a powerful weapon- THE most powerful weapon there is.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I am a firm believer that the Bible can be taken both literally and figuratively. I believe what happened to Job was very real. There are instances in the New Testament when Jesus referred to what he was saying as a parable/story/allegory. This was not so with Job.

What I have always wondered about is when God tells us that he will restore and multiply what has been taken from us - it doesn't replace what we have lost. So I wonder about that....

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Well, no, no one makes the claim outright, but the implication is there nonetheless.

God creates good.
Satan creates evil.

God makes alive.
Satan kills.

God heals.
Satan makes sick.

God fills.
Satan possesses.

God is truth.
Satan is false.

...and so on. Their power, it seems in some minds, is equal, but on opposing ends of the spectrum. God does signs and wonders. Satan does lying wonders. And there is the point. LYING wonders. Deception. His tool is deception and, if he can make us believe we are possessed, for example, then for all intents and purposes, we are possessed. I do believe in actual possession but this is a rare, very rare occurrence in the spiritual realm IMO. What we usually call "posession" is mental and/or emotional problems, chemical addiction and/or imbalance, or, most often, the simple power of suggestion.

I was in a service once where the evangelist preached on demon possession. A woman in the service had some emotional problems. The evangelist "convinced" the woman she was possessed. He went so far as to tell of instances where he cast demons out of people. During the process he related, the demons talked, screamed, they had to hold the person down while he cast the demons out. The person foamed at the mouth, gagged and did all the usual stuff. The time came. The woman came forward and, guess what? Every sympton of possession he described was repeated because the woman was "taught" thats what demon possessed people do. The power of suggestion is a very effective tool of deception.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

It seems that parable or parallel story is considered to be a good story but not true. Why would people think it would not be totally true and accurate?

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I believe that God allows Satan to do things, thus making God more powerful. I don't believe that Satan can do anything without God allowing him to.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Chapter 42:14And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.

So at the end of the book of Job, his first daughter recieves her name?

10And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.


If it was an allegory and if the story was a GOOD story but not a true story as written, then the statemenst found there in about the Lord saying something are false.
7And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.


Summary. Lack of details doesn't mean lack of absolute truth.

Back to the beginning, when the tattle tale said the kids were dead, that doesn't mean his line was either true or false. It just means that is what he said.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Isaiah 45:6-7
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
God also created choice and creates restrictions on evil as he told satin in chapter 1.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I think a lot of stories are inspired by real events, and Job could be one of those. Perhaps there was a very good man who was very well off, but suddenly struck with tragedy, perhaps with friends who tried to explain it, and maybe a wife who told him to curse God and die, etc. etc. Someone padded the story with God bragging about Job and Satan challenging Him and several chapters of God bragging about Himself and belittling Job, when Job was at the lowest point of his life. (And what are we to learn of God's character from this? :hmmm)

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Your idea of the Word of God being inspired by God is sure different from mine.:smack

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

:thumbsupOA do you have any proof that they did not die?

I agree with you that satan is a deceiver. As to the purpose of the book, I think you have a great point there.:thumbsup

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Of course. But, inspired or not, literal or not: what are we to learn about God's character from this? Did I characterize the story wrong somehow? Did God brag about Job in chapter 1? Did He brag about himself for several chapters near the end? Did he belittle Job? Was Job at a low point?

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

"Someone padded the story with God bragging about Job and Satan challenging Him and several chapters of God bragging about Himself and belittling Job, when Job was at the lowest point of his life. (And what are we to learn of God's character from this? )"

This was your post. I bolded the part I have a problem with. Plus I would not say He was bragging.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Ah, I see. Well, the "someone" could be God! :)

Not bragging? What would you say He was doing, then, talking about how He, and not Job, created everything etc.?

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Maybe Pluto? Everybody disses Pluto.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

On the subject of the Book of Job being allegorical, forget the character called "Satan" in the drama and consider the one called "God."

Are we comfortable with a deity who throws away the lives of Job's children in order to win a bet? I read about a man in Wisconsin recently who threw away the life of his diabetic daughter on a similar wager - and he's looking at serious prison time.

And don't forget - Job never got an answer from God. The "curtain" was never thrown back revealing heaven's parlor game. Job was left to ponder the deepest of mysteries along with his readers. But Job was able to find a higher meaning and purpose for deity than the idea of God as a Supernatural bickering with another supernatural being.

And thus, Job justified God and God justified Job. Sounds like a good basis for a friendship, allegorical or otherwise.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

If one is in a cynical mood while reading this, it is easy to compare what happens in Job between God and Satan to Randolph and Mortimer ruining a mans life for a one dollar bet. "I say it is heredity!", "Well, I say it is environment! Shall we make our usual wager?"

As far as the man who risked his daughters life in Wisconsin, have you read any of their blog posts? They've made themselves into the victims being persecuted by the state (and satan) for THEIR "minister". It is all about them -their daughter is forgotten -or has even gotten sick because of HER sins.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Classic movie....had to love the come back in Coming To America....

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

It's too painful to watch. Boneheads. And I'm being very nice...

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

"Contradicts God's Nature" is too broad of a statement. Specificity is better.

The particular part that seems to "go against the grain" of the character pattern of God, is His negotiation with Satan and His allowing of death and destruction of innocent people in order to prove a point. I don't see anything else like that in scripture.

There are some things in the Bible that I struggle with and I'm willing to admit it. The book of Job is one of those things. But I do LOVE it when Elihu shows up in chapter 32. I've always wanted to be like Elihu.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I vote we give Job the boot! Like they did the Apocrypha! :heeheehee

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Of all the books in the Bible, Job (along with Ecclesiastes) is perhaps the most in line with humanistic thought. I thought that would make it more appealing to you.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

That does it for me! Out it goes!!!!!!! J/K

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

I took it He was just stating facts. :)

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Every see Alias Smith and Jones? I think that was the show where some old gunslinger keeps saying "no brag, just fact". After bragging of his gunslinging abilities, of course! :lol

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

Couldn't help myself: I had to look it up. Apparently, it wasn't Alias, but The Guns of Will Sonnett, and I can hardly remember that show at all! Weird.

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

lol you know how the old cowboys were. :ursofunny

Re: Book of Job is it an Allegory?
 

For those who doubt the historical account of Job being a real person it would on take a casual glance at the scriptures where he is mentioned to realiza he was a real person note:
Ez. 14:14...he is listed with Daniel and Noah were they fictional characters?
James 5:11 refers to Job as a person.
Fanciful interpetations come because folks don't study the Bible.
Just wanted to be a help.:thumbsup