Classic John Eckstat
 

This Brother was in my opinion one of the best on the Oneness teaching. I think he died in the mid 70's. His son Nathan is a member of the AFF.

Some Trinitarian Absurdities

Some absurb conclusions are arrived at if God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Ghost are different persons. Let us examine some of them.

If there are three different persons, then there are also three Fathers, for all three manifestations are referred to as Father.
God is the Father of Jesus, and yet Matthew declares that the Holy Ghost is the Father. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 1:18)

Luke declares that the Holy Ghost is also the Father: "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).

If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, then Jesus Christ has two fathers. For God the Father is one of His fathers and God the Holy Ghost is the other. However if this is not confusing enough, Jesus is also called the Father. Therefore, in the doctrine of the Trinity we have not one Father but rather three Fathers.

The following passages prove that Jesus is the Father.
Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God,The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Revelation 21:6-7 (Jesus is the Alpha and Omega): "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I (Jesus) will be his God, and he shall be
my son. If we are sons of Jesus, then he must be our Father.

The Disciples saw the Father when they saw Jesus. In John 14:7 Jesus declares that they have seen and also known the Father. I ask you, dear reader " Whom had they seen?" The only visible image of God is Jesus (Colossians 1:15; Heb. 1:3). They could not see the Holy Ghost,for the Spirit is invisible. If the Father was in heaven, and not in Jesus, then they must yet see another. And so Philip responds with this request, "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?" Let us stop here to consider what has been said. Philip, did you ask who the Son was? Did you ask who Jesus was?
No, Philip, you asked who God the Father was, didn't you? If Jesus was the eternal Son, and not the everlasting Father, this was a golden opportunity for Jesus to tell them He was only the Son of this Father, But Jesus continues, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father."

According to the Bible, if the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three persons, there is not one Father but three Fathers. Jesus is our Father, and God the Father and God the Holy Ghost are his Fathers, therefore God the Father must be our Grandfather.

The Bible says there is One! One! One God the Father!

1 Cor. 8:5,6 says. "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many). But to us there is but one God, the Father." There is one God; who is he? He is the Father. Again Jesus warns to call only one person our Father, and that is God in heaven. If Jesus is not God the Father, then it is an abomination to call him Father.

We quote Matthew 23:9 " And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Only one is your Father, not three, Only one is to be called Father (God the Father).

Isaiah, you must have been wrong; you called Jesus the Father (Isa. 9:6) . For only God the Father is to be called the Father. No, Isaiah was not wrong, for Jesus the everlasting Father is God the Father. He is both God and man.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

In Trinitarianism there are three "persons" but one divine essence of God of which the F,S & HG are deity.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Yes I realize that as did Eckstat. He was as I understand an attendee of an Assemblies of God Bible College.

Each of the persons is fully God. They are co equal and co eternal. They are multiple YHWH'S.

The end result is Tritheism. I understand John Eckstat brought many into Oneness truth. We should attempt to do the same.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

True. :thumbsup

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

If I remember correctly JE was an ordained AG minister, and did, indeed, bring several AG ministers in to the glorious truth of the One God message.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Thank God for the oneness truth all of the fullness of the divine nature dwells in Jesus Christ.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Rev. John A. Eckstadt

United Pentecostal Church International

1934 ~ 1978

Rev. John Eckstadt was born on November 10, 1934 in Brooklyn, New York. He received the Holy Ghost at the early age of 18 while attending an Assembly of God Church in Brooklyn. He was an alumni of Zion Bible College, Providence, Rhode Island. He served as pastor at the Assembly of God Church in Haverhill, Massachusetts. He began his teaching ministry at the Faith School of Theology in Old Orchard, Maine. He later pastored a church in Naugatuck, Connecticut, and opened a new church in Waterbury, Connecticut.

In October of 1963, he received the revelation of Jesus' name. He became the pastor at Bristol, Connecticut. Following this, he taught at the Pentecostal Bible Institute, Tupelo, Mississippi. Later he pastored the First United Pentecostal Church, Richmond, Virginia. He taught at the Jackson College of Ministries, Jackson, Mississippi; and later at the Wide World of Ministries school in Fort Worth, Texas. His latest pastorate was at the High Point Pentecostal Church, Cincinnati, Ohio.

He was in demand as a camp meeting speaker and a Bible teacher. He traveled extensively in evangelistic work. Thousands of people were baptized in Jesus' Name and received the Holy Ghost as a result of his dynamic ministry.

After an illustrious ministry, Brother John Eckstadt was called home from this earthly labor on March 13, 1978. He will be missed greatly by his many friends and relatives. Audio recordings of Brother John Eckstadt are available in the audio library of the Apostolic Archives International.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Wow do you have a link to this?

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

The Rabbi ‘s deep voice echoes through the dusk, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord’.{# De 6:4} What a far cry that is from Judaism’s offspring, Christianity, and its belief in the Trinity. While the majority of the Christian world considers the concept of the Trinity vital to Christianity, many historians and Bible scholars agree that the Trinity of Christianity owes more to Greek philosophy and pagan polytheism than to the monotheism of the Jew and the Jewish Jesus.

From The site heraldmag.org

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

What was his relationship at the Church in Wisconsin Pastored by Elder Tammel?

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

The search for the origins of the Trinity begins with the earliest writings of man. Records of early Mesopotamian and Mediterranean civilizations show polytheistic religions, though many scholars assert that earliest man believed in one god. The 19th century scholar and Protestant minister, Alexander Hislop, devotes several chapters of his book The Two Babylons to showing how this original belief in one god was replaced by the triads of paganism which were eventually absorbed into Catholic Church dogmas. A more recent Egyptologist, Erick Hornung, refutes the original monotheism of Egypt: ‘[Monotheism is] a phenomenon restricted to the wisdom texts,’ which were written between 2600 and 2530 BC (50-51); but there is no question that ancient man believed in ‘one infinite and Almighty Creator, supreme over all’ (Hislop 14); and in a multitude of gods at a later point. Nor is there any doubt that the most common grouping of gods was a triad.1



Most of ancient theology is lost under the sands of time. However, archaeological expeditions in ancient Mesopotamia have uncovered the fascinating culture of the Sumerians, which flourished over 4,000 years ago. Though Sumeria was overthrown first by Assyria, and then by Babylon, its gods lived on in the cultures of those who conquered. The historian S. H. Hooke tells in detail of the ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu was the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, and the ‘King of the Gods’; Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ was the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’ (15-18). The historian, H. W. F. Saggs, explains that the Babylonian triad consisted of ‘three gods of roughly equal rank... whose inter-relationship is of the essence of their natures’ (316).

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

God can in no way be described." -- Plato (Father of the pagan Trinity)

In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

"Christendom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it" (Soren Kierkegaard, cited in Time magazine, Dec. 16, 1946, p. 64).

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Nicene Creed introduced the word "homoousious" or "consubstantial" meaning "of one substance." This word was not invented at the Council. Eusebius writes that some of the "most learned and distinguished of the ancient bishops had made use of consubstantial in treating of the divinity of the Father and the Son" (See document E in the Appendix, Baker). We do not have the sources that Eusebius must have had regarding the use of this word. Today, the only source is Origen who used the word in what seems the orthodox way (Johannes Quastren, "Patrology," Volume 2, p78). However, this phrase of Eusebius stands as a witness to the existence of wider use.
The bishops assembled at Nicea were careful to explain how they used the word, and what it meant. This is because it had been misused by Paul of Samosta. Regarding this unorthodox usage, St. Hilary and St. Basil say that it was said to be "unfit to describe the relation between the Father and the Son" at a council that met in Antioch (Ibid, p14). Apparently Paul of Samosta applied the word in a manner that implied division of nature, as several coins are from the same metal (Baker, p21).

The Role of Constantine

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

What does the Creed say?

Let us look at what the Creed says, and comment on some of its points. It is short, so we'll begin by quoting all of it.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth;

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

(translation by the International Consultation on English Texts)

The Creed, although having a Trinitarian structure, is not explicitly Trinitarian. The Creed began to be developed before the Trinitarian controversy arose, and the Creed (unlike the Nicene Creed) was not an attempt to correct a specific heresy.

Numerous scriptures could be mentioned as support for the various points of the Creed. The Creed was believed to be in full agreement with the apostolic writings, and the same churches accepted both the Creed and the Scriptures as authoritative, as faithful reports of what the apostles taught.

The Creed begins with a simple statement of faith in God, who has all power and is the originator of everything. This statement is a rejection of pagan mythologies, but it was acceptable to Jews and to some of the more educated Greeks.

Most of the Creed is about Jesus Christ, for he is the definitive doctrine of the faith. Beliefs about Jesus separate Christians from everyone else. Jesus was a specific person, born of a woman, executed under a specific Roman governor. Unlike mythological deities, he did not come from the distant and hazy past -- he interacted with the real world. He had a real body that was born, crucified and buried, and yet he was divine, too -- conceived by the Holy Spirit, resurrected, ascended into heaven at a position of supreme power. He is the unique Son of God, a unique Lord who is above all earthly lords, and he is the Judge who will return to earth to determine everyone's reward.

The early church knew about Jesus' earthly ministry and his miracles, but they did not feel that these were essential to the Christian faith. The Creed focuses more on his supernatural birth, his ignominious death and his supernatural power. These are of greatest theological significance, and were therefore included in the statement of faith.

'Descended to the dead'

The phrase "descended to the dead" is of special interest, in part because it used to be translated "descended into hell." Some medieval theologians came up with elaborate theories about what Jesus did in hell, but this misses the original purpose of the phrase.

Irenaeus and Tertullian do not have this phrase; it first appears in the writings of Rufinus, who said that it meant only that Jesus went to the grave, the "place" of the dead. This is in agreement with Scripture, which says that Jesus rose from "the dead" (a plural adjective used as a noun, meaning the situation that all dead people are in, as in Acts 4:10).

Peter applied the words of Psalm 16 to Jesus: "You will not abandon me to the grave" -- to Hades, the realm of the dead. When Jesus was dead, he was in Hades. Some believe he was conscious, and others believe he was not, but either way, he was in Hades, the realm of the dead.

The phrase "descended to the dead" disappeared from the creed for more than 200 years. Augustine, for one, did not have it. It occurs again in the Gallic Creed of 650 and remained from then on.

Some are troubled by this phrase and its history in the Creed; others are troubled by ancient and modern misinterpretations of the phrase. Some would prefer it be eliminated, since it does not add anything essential to the Creed, and is a point of disagreement rather than agreement.

Wayne Grudem argues that "unlike every other phrase in the Creed, it represents not some major doctrine on which all Christians agree, but rather a statement about which most Christians seem to disagree. It is at best confusing and in most cases misleading for modern Christians. My own judgment is that there would be all gain and no loss if it were dropped from the Creed once for all" (Systematic Theology, Zondervan, 1994, pp. 583-594).

Nevertheless, the words are in the Creed, and we cannot change the tradition. However, we can understand the words correctly so we can agree with them. Others may interpret these words differently, but we do not need to argue about that.

'The holy catholic church'

The Creed ends with a few brief statements. We can easily agree to a belief in the Holy Spirit, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection and eternal life. (Some may question "resurrection of the body." First Corinthians 15 says that our body will be transformed to be spiritual rather than fleshly, but it will still be our body.)

Some people are also put off by the words "holy catholic church." The word catholic comes from the Greek words kat' holos, literally meaning "according to the whole," or in actual use, worldwide or universal. The word catholic became part of the Creed before "catholic" became associated with the Roman church, and many Protestant churches use the Creed with the word catholic. In the Creed, we do not express faith in a specific denomination, but in the church worldwide -- that is, that there is one body, united by God's Spirit. The phrase "communion of saints" implies the same thing -- that as we all commune or have unity with Christ through the Holy Spirit, we also commune with each other. We will be united to one another forever.

The Apostles' Creed has been part of the Western church tradition for many centuries. It has not been perfect, but it has been useful for Christian confession, doctrine and discipleship. We accept the creed as a valid statement of faith for Christians.

For further comments on the Apostles' Creed, you may want to read Alister McGrath, "I Believe": Exploring the Apostles' Creed (InterVarsity, 1998). Several other authors have also written on this subject, including William Barclay, Stuart Briscoe and Michael Horton.

Copyright © 1999

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

More correctly, because you assert the bolded statement you must understand this as Tritheism. But it is YOUR language not that of any respectable Trinitarian.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Hoovie I don't hate Trinis I read their books and such,but that doctrine comes from a mingling of Greek philosphy with Christian ideas it was a departure from the monotheistic doctrine of the primitive Christian church.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Let me say this in kindness the denominational system and denominations directly or indirectly come from The Roman Catholic Church,thank God for the reformation,but the daughters of the Catholic church still have their momma in them.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Oh really? You must not have talked with as many of them as I have. Co equal, co eternal persons is the heart of Trinitarianism. If one does not believe THAT they are not Trins.

I was among them the first 5-6 years of my walk. I was Church of Christ, Jesus People, Freewill Baptist, Deliverance Pentecostal and Charismatic.

I rejoiced greatly to finally discover Oneness truth. I still rejoice in it today. Nothing gives me more joy than to hear Jesus Christ being magnified to the highest point in the Universe!

To me its not some tired old tradition of men. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is the greatest knowledge thats ever crossed my mind! I am not ashamed to teach Jesus is the Father and the Son. I want everyone to believe it!

John Eckstat influenced my Charismatic Pastor and life long friend Ed Peagler into Oneness revelations. He taught it to us in the body in 1980 in Dayton, Ohio and we considered it a great leap forward not something to hide under a bushel.

I still get excited to hear the wonderful revelations taught by him concerning Jesus Christ.

Is the Oneness message all there is? By no means! But there is no message that is any more important.

Believe and teach the full gospel! I love it all.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Not sure what this has to do with anything. I simply called into question your statements that, "They are multiple YHWH'S. The end result is Tritheism."

I have spoken to plenty. Many of my Christian brothers are Trinitarian, and the Mennonite church I was part of when I met the Lord was "Trinitarian". None of these would agree to YOUR characterization of God.

Bottom line.. what you accuse - what you say they believe, is not at all what they think about God. Those types of fabrications are inflammatory and cause great harm to the body of Christ.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

So you believe I am fabricating the statement that Trinitarians believe in multiple YWHW'S?

Here is a quote from AnsweringIslam a Trinitarian site held in high regard by many of their elite.

http://www.answering-islam.org/autho...initarian.html

They as true classic Trinitarians say there is more than one person called YHWH. This is what I mean by multiple YHWH'S.

Notice also the last phrase of the paragraph: God the Son brought down the rain from God the Father.

Two YHWH persons. Two God persons.

To me that is inflammatory and very harmful to the disciple of Yeshua Messiah and is by no means a fabrication of their doctrine. They are not ashamed of it. Yet Oneness believers defend them and accuse us that oppose the error of fabricating and hurting the body!

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

I disagree that it's Tritheism. They don't go that far. They conclude that this great divine mystery of the godhead is still summed up as "one God" and that Jesus is LORD.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

I see your point, MCD. They call this a "mystery" that God operates in a triune nature, much like we claim Jesus the Christ to be 100% God and 100% man. Do I think it's not the more reveletory idea of the godhead? I don't. But to call them tritheists is to misunderstand them completely. The most important thing about the godhead, is understanding that Jesus is God in flesh. To that, almost all agree.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

LORD is an English replacement word for YHWH. They do believe he is YHWH. Yet they believe someone else is also YHWH. Two persons who are both called YHWH and are both God.

See the article I placed in my last post.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

But which God came in the flesh? Since scripture only knows one God even the Father (Malachi 2:10) they are wrong. Why? They teach God the Son another person apart from God the Father came in the flesh.

So who came in flesh? God or the second person of God? What did Paul say?

16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim. 3:16

Why did he NOT say the second person of God was manifest? Because he only believed in One God.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

I have asked the following question over at CARM. Its a Trinitarian site some of us frequent.

Are there Three Persons Of YHWH?

So far not much interest but here is a direct quote from one well learned Trinitarian there. He has over 8000 posts there so he is not a novice in this discussion.

So it is no fabrication that they believe and teach three distinct persons called YHWH.

http://www.christiandiscussionforums...d.php?t=187006

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

I copied and pasted the first post and emailed to my Baptist cousin. This is what he responded. ;)

The Doctrine of the Trinity is not only foundational to true Christianity, but has also been well established by sound Biblical exegesis over the centuries. Contrary to oneness teachings, Biblical Christians (Trinitarians) do not teach that "Jesus and God are two separate and distinct beings." It is important that we study the Bible in the context of its entirety and not remove individual verses upon which to build doctrine. True Biblical Christianity teaches that:

1. God is one. (Deu 6:4-5)
2. The Father is God (Isa 43:10-11) (Isa 44:6)
3. Jesus is God (Joh 1:1) (Joh 10:30) (COL 2:9)
4. The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is God (Act 5:3-4)
5. God is one (Exo 20:2-3)

One God in three persons. The Trinity.

To deny the true triune nature of the Godhead as revealed in Scripture is not only to create a god in your own image and in accordance to your finite understanding but it is also to deny the very Atonement itself. Unless Jesus suffered and died as a true "person" (not just simply a manifestation of God), fully God and fully man, distinct/separate from (while still one with) the Father, the Atonement is incomplete and we remain in our sin. Trinitarian doctrine accepts the reality that God is far beyond our mortal comprehension and that " ... The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" (LUK 18:27). Simply put, where God is concerned, some things must be accepted by faith.

The Bible teaches each of the above five points of the doctrine as the absolute truth of God. The only way to reconcile the points is to believe Jesus when he tells us that LUK 18:27 "... The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" and believe the whole word of God when it tells us that God is indeed ONE, and that The Father is God, and Jesus is God, and The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is God, and that they all interact with mankind, and each other, as distinct Persons (not separate beings). Simply put, the God of the Bible is One God, an eternally existent triune God. The Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Three in one.

Adherents to the oneness doctrines are absolutely correct when they state that "the reason it is essential for us to know this (the true identity of Jesus) is because the validity, authority, and truthfulness of all he taught depends on his identity as God." The question here is "Which God?"

Make no mistake, Trinitarian Doctrine teaches that Jesus is God. Jesus, Fully God, Fully Man, God the Son, The second person of the ONE true triune God of the Bible.

Three Persons - As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (MAT 3:16-17)

One God - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 JOHN 5:7 KJV)




About the only three denominations I know adhering to the oneness doctoring are the Jehovah Witnesses, the LDS, and the UPC.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Sorry Michael, I have had a long day.

Why do you think "learned Trinitarians" will confess and teach three distinct persons in the Godhead, yet would be appalled by statements like yours?

Statements like "They are multiple YHWH'S. The end result is Tritheism." or any other insinuation that Trinitarians affirm multiple YHWH's are fabrication - yes.

Go ahead and defend Oneness, but not at expense of truth, please.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Here is some information on my late Father...

My father John A Eckstadt was born Nov 10th, 1934 and passed away on March 13th, 1978. He was raised in a home where his mother had him reading everything she could find from the time he was 2 years old. She was a devout Catholic and dreamed one day he might become a priest. My grandfather was a WW1 Navy hero and a Brooklyn Poilce officer between WW1 and WW2. He enlisted again in the Navy at the age of 47 upon the sudden death of my grandmother at the age of 33 from breat cancer. My fathers only sibling his sister Florence passed away in 1945 at the age of 13 from Leukemia. My grandfather did not make it back in time to see her before she died. After WW2 my grandfather returned and worked for the military division of the NY police Department where he investigated crimes committed by and upon Ex-GI's.

My father at the age of 16 in 1950 started lifthing weights and became a body builder. By the age of 17 he was running with the wrong crowd and began drinking. My grandfather married a dancer and they were drunk on the weekends and fighting during the week.

At the young age of 17 my father ran with a friend who was jewish. As they walked passed a synagouge. The sign read, "Here ole Israel, the Lord our God is One". His friend made this statement, "John do you believe in God?"

My father made this comment, I don't think that I believe in God! This young man made this statement to my father. "John one day you will believe there is a God and only one God".

Shortly thereafter my dad became close friends to a new kid on the block. His dad was newly planted AOG pastor. They soon became very close friends. My father was invited to church and he found it exciting to hear the preaching and then try and refute what the minister had to say. He began to ask his Jewish friend if he could help translate from the Hebrew what some old testament words meant to them. He received the HQ in Brooklyn at an AOG church at the age of 18.

This was the start of my fathers love for the original Hebrew and then it came full circle to the original Greek. It was not uncommon for my father when in cities around the country to visit synagogues and sit for hours with the Rabbi's.

My father was not one to follow the crowd he searched scriptures for meaning and original truths. He was on a quest for revelation that he believed was found in the original meanings of the written word.

My father was scouted by major league scouts at the age of 17. He once hit a ball over 450 feet in front of scouts. That later drafted his friend and classmate, Frank Torre the older brother of Yankee's and now Dodgers manager Joe Torre. Their fathers worked out of the same police station in Brooklyn. My father's path was not baseball, but it bacame the ministry.

The AOG pastor that taught my father and helped encourage him to attend Bible College is still alive and lives in Springfield, MO at the AOG assisted living center for retired AOG ministers, he is 95 years old.

That should be a message to all pastors, how many exceptional young men have been looked over? Thank God for that gifted pastor.

My father was caught praying in tounges in his home by his father who kicked him out of the house. He then went to live his senior year in HS with AOG pastor. My dad attended AOG Zion Bible College in Rhode Island.

They graduated him with a full degree after 1 year and half. He met my mother they married just after graduating in 1959. She attended four years and upon graduation they traveled as Evangelist in the AOG not together but by themselves. They met up every couple of weeks to be together.

My father while preaching in what he thought was an AOG church in New Brunswick, Canada. A church in the home town of my Mother's, father and mother. They came to the USA in 1921 and moved to the city of Boston, where my mother was born and raised.

In the middle of his sermon he quoted Isaiah 9:6, when he did the church went nuts. He then ate dinner and then found out he was in a wacky Jesus only church. He had to preach that night and that afternoon all he could hear was, "The Lord our God is one". He began to run scriptures through his mind. He preached at 2 other churches on that trip in NB. A few months later he was back at the same church. These 3 pastors all began to fast and pray that he would come to a revelation. One sunday afternoon they all came to the pastors house to talk with him. When they walked into the house he told them, no need. I want to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

He did this without talking to my mother. Her older brother was married to the daughter of an AOG headquarters offical. My uncle Ron Prince later switched to Southern Baptist and pastored for 30 plus years in Minden, LA with over 3000 members. Where he became close friends of T.W. Barnes. My uncle told me near the end of his life that he was baptised in the name of Jesus. My uncle Ron was a real friend of the late Martin Luther King JR.. That is a whole other great story.

My mother at first faught my dad on his being rebaptized. She then follewed as did many of our family members throughout the 1960's.

The article that Michael the Disciple quotes is from the Dec 1964 UPC Pentecostal Herald. If anyone wants that in PDF send me your email addess.

In 1963 my father was offered a church in Pittsburgh that ran 1500 saints but it was AOG. He had just moved over to the UPC. Then GS A.T. Morgan told my fathar to visit all the state Superintendent's. Of which my father completed the visit to almost all the states by the time I was born in July 1964.

My father proceeded to travel as an evangelist for the years to come. He was a full-time teacher of theology at PBI, JCM and Mark Hanby's Wide World of Truth. He was a man of revelation and started teaching on Soul Sleep years ahead of his time. He also pastored chuches in the AOG and UPC.

He lived life with passion, love and a God fearing honesty that I have rarely witnessed. He was born a few months after Elvis Pressly and died a few months after Elvis. They both passed away at the age of 43.

If you really want to see what he believed you need to hear Eckstadt-vs- Eckstadt. Where he preaches a Trinity message and then preaches a oneness message and then explains the difference.

He once converted many in a church in Bristol, Conn from the UPC to the AOG. Then when he became Oneness he converted them back to the Oneness. He lived a life of revelation, I wish he lived in these times where everyone has to get themselves known by writing books.

In my fathers life, his mother planted the seed, his father planted the motivation, his jewish friend planted the question, his AOG friend planted the example and the AOG pastor planted the passion.

My grandfather his dad was a WW1 hero and served on the USS Nathianel Fanning, where each man received a citation for valor from then President Wilson. 2 men received the Navy Cross, for the sinking of a German U-boat. On that day in Nov, 17th, 1917. When they dropped the depth charge, that hit the Uboat the blast also knocked out the engines of the Fanning. They did not have full power to escape if needed. They waited seconds and the blast brought the U-boat to the surface. The men aboard the Fanning came within seconds of being defeated in battle. Which would have made it impossible for my father and then the next generation to have existed.

Remember God had us in his mind before our time...


God Bless

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Thank you for sharing some of your family's history. I had read a little of it before, but never this much. What a beautiful story! It never ceases to amaze me how we can look back and find the hand of God at work in our lives. (such as the case of your G-Father on the Fanning)

God Bless You,
Sinatra

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

That is true, 2 of which were my unlces.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

My father upon visiting WI in 1963 to preach through out the state. Met Frank J Tamel at Elim Tabernacle in Greenfield, WI. When my father preached at that church several times in the 1960's, Frank Tamel would pick him up at the airport. He would take him out to dinner and talk scripture from the moment he hit Milw to the time he would leave.

In 1971 when pastor Tamel started his church that some thought was a church split. But really consisted of mostly family members.

My father was one of very few who broke ranks and prached at his church in the 1970's. From 1971 through 1976 my father preached some 48 sermons at Parkway where Pastor Frank Tamel has ministerd for 38 years.

Pastor Tamel did the prayer at the gravesite at my fathers funeral. He truely is a great man of God. He is also my father-in-laws older brother...

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

In the traditions of the Trinity hall of fame, YHWH simply translates Father. Of which they believe the Holy Spirit and the Son are separate but equal.

To me if God is 3 of anythings to add up to full power, then the three parts are weakened and not all powerful as individual parts of God. Therefore how can any part of God then be supreme? Or how can the three parts all be Supreme, both individually and then also collectively. If they are all powerful individually, then how can they be supremely powerful collectively. You can't be more powerful collectively if each is all powerful individually! I also have a problem with Jesus being the 2nd person of the Trinity. By order of the progression of the Trinity belief we first find the Father in Scriptures, Then the Holy Spirit and then the Son. They even have a hard time placing the positions of the three in the God Head.

You could argu that the First person should be the Holy Spirit, the second the father and the third the son.

To me in simple terms the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are our terms used to try and define God. God is more than Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Your statement of the JW's LDS and the UPC is not accurate. I know many Methodist pastors that are now preaching and teaching baptism in JN and the Oneness message. What is unknown to many they had a very large hand in the message in the early 1900's.

That is what is Absurd about the teachings of the Trinity, many try and teach that the three persons are all three all powerful. Yet they do not believe in 3 separate Gods. But if you define the person as being deity they are in essence God individually. They define that collectively these 3 persons are the total sum of God. Thus it takes the 3 person's of the Trinity to equal God.

That is absurd. My father was taught by the best of the AOG and he taught at AOG colleges. The person's of the Trinity are as much God individually as 'person 1, 2 or 3 of the trinty' as they collectively together as the Trinity.

If what you are stating they are not each God individually, but are God supreme collectively then all Trinitarians are Oneness, without the revelation of the Baptism in JN.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Ok I will try this one more time. I have posted a few links as examples to show they do believe in multiple YHWH persons. Multiple in meaning more than one.

What you dont seem to get is THAT IS TRINITARIANISM.

They are not ashamed of it because it is their doctrine. Its on thousands of internet web sites. So it is TRUTH not fabrication. They are not appalled by their own doctrine.

It is my opinion that their belief results in Tritheism. That they would be appalled at. However thats the blindness of it. They confess there are 3 persons called YHWH while saying they are not tri theists.

My purpose in this thread is to give appreciation to men like John Eckstat who fought the good fight in bringing light and understanding to hungry souls in the matter of who is Christ. How I wish we had men like him today.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Jehovah Witness are not Oneness like Oneness Pentecostals. Theu reject the Trinity doctrine but likewise the deity of Christ.

LDS are Trinitarian according to themselves.

Last of all The UPC is just one group of many Oneness Pentecostals who believe this message.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

One God in three persons. The Trinity.(un-bibical)

If there are three persons, and they are co-equal, why did only one person have
to die! Which is the ALMIGHTY!

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Notice I said that was what my Baptist cousin replied to the original post. I did NOT write any of that.

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

Esther,

Understood. Thanks for your contribution!

Re: Classic John Eckstat
 

From this site.
http://evangelicaloutreach.org

The Trinity is a very important doctrine to know about because there are a lot of groups that deny the Trinity. Some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs), would say that Jesus Christ is not God and that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Other groups like the Jesus-Only people or the Apostolics, also known as the United Pentecostals, believe that Jesus is God, but they believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are different modes of the same person. So hopefully I can give you enough information from the Word of God that you can counter these heresies, because that's exactly what they are.