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-   -   What's the difference? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=25769)

mizpeh 08-20-2009 10:55 AM
What's the difference?
 
In Psalm 26 David writes:

4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers.
5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked

Yet in Mark 2 (Matt 9:9-13) when Jesus sat with sinners we are told:

13 And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.
14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Does Jesus words and actions give us license to go to the bars, clubs, pool halls, etc? Can we sit with sinners?

Why then did David not feel right in sitting with sinners?

n david 08-20-2009 11:04 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 791171)
In Psalm 26 David writes:

4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers.
5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked

Yet in Mark 2 (Matt 9:9-13) when Jesus sat with sinners we are told:

13 And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.
14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Does Jesus words and actions give us license to go to the bars, clubs, pool halls, etc? Can we sit with sinners?

Why then did David not feel right in sitting with sinners?
I believe the difference to be in BOLD. David is speaking of making a choice on his part ... HE wouldn't choose to sit with sinners. With Jesus, he is sitting with many, including sinners ... but THEY followed HIM.

Nothing wrong with being around sinners ... but who is following whom?

Withdrawn 08-20-2009 11:04 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
First hunch, Mizpeh, without doing any great deal of study on it (at the tail end of my lunch break), I would submit the following:

1. David's statements are consistent with Paul's statements in 2 Corinthians 6 where we are instructed to not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. After all, what fellowship does light have with darkness, right? Light dispells darkness and the two cannot co-exist.

2. Jesus' purpose for "eating and drinking with publicans and sinners" was consistent with His mission - "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." You can't be physically distant from those to whom you are ministering.

Does that give us "license" to go into bars, etc.? I guess it depends on your intention. Are you there to kick back and partake of the debauchery and immorality? Or are you there for the specific purpose of "preaching deliverance to the captive" or the "recovering of sight to the blind"? I believe there is a place for such ministry, but one should certainly enter in only through much prayer and in the wisdom of God.

Just my $.02.

rgcraig 08-20-2009 11:08 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaamez (Post 791176)
First hunch, Mizpeh, without doing any great deal of study on it (at the tail end of my lunch break), I would submit the following:

1. David's statements are consistent with Paul's statements in 2 Corinthians 6 where we are instructed to not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. After all, what fellowship does light have with darkness, right? Light dispells darkness and the two cannot co-exist.

2. Jesus' purpose for "eating and drinking with publicans and sinners" was consistent with His mission - "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." You can't be physically distant from those to whom you are ministering.

Does that give us "license" to go into bars, etc.? I guess it depends on your intention. Are you there to kick back and partake of the debauchery and immorality? Or are you there for the specific purpose of "preaching deliverance to the captive" or the "recovering of sight to the blind"? I believe there is a place for such ministry, but one should certainly enter in only through much prayer and in the wisdom of God.

Just my $.02.
I'd agree with J on this one!

mizpeh 08-20-2009 05:53 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
My take would be that Jesus was invited to eat at Matthew's house. Matthew had many friends who were sinners who came to eat with Jesus and hear Him speak. I don't believe Jesus was there for the intention purpose of to "sit with sinners" (which may mean to sit and partake of the sins of sinners). Sinners were there and He ministered to them in Matthew's house.

Jesus didn't go to bars and such to look for sinners to preach to them nor did he tell his disciples when he sent them out to do that either. I think we can find plenty of sinners to preach to without going out to bars. Jesus did a lot of preaching in the wilderness after He became famous and before that in the synagogues and houses.

Esaias 07-17-2018 06:10 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
The Pharisees' definition of "sinner" and the Bible's definition of sinner are not necessarily the same...

:thumbsup

berkeley 07-17-2018 06:43 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1541068)
The Pharisees' definition of "sinner" and the Bible's definition of sinner are not necessarily the same...

:thumbsup
Bumping old threads, Pancho. :foottap

Esaias 07-17-2018 07:28 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1541070)
Bumping old threads, Pancho. :foottap
Current ones are boring.

:thumbsup

berkeley 07-17-2018 07:34 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1541071)
Current ones are boring.

:thumbsup
Yeah. And I’ve been taking a trip down forum memory lane.

votivesoul 07-18-2018 03:42 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 791171)
In Psalm 26 David writes:

4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers.
5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked

Yet in Mark 2 (Matt 9:9-13) when Jesus sat with sinners we are told:

13 And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.
14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Does Jesus words and actions give us license to go to the bars, clubs, pool halls, etc? Can we sit with sinners?

Why then did David not feel right in sitting with sinners?
I think there are some contextual differences based off of the Hebrew. Here's a sample definition from Strong's:

Quote:
A primitive root; properly to sit down (specifically as judge, in ambush, in quiet); by implication to dwell, to remain; causatively to settle, to marry...
In King David's case, to "sit" is not merely to place the behind down next to someone else on a couch or at a table, but was to sit enthroned at court (Consider Psalm 1 here) as judge among the people. King David would not permit himself to have sitting in his royal court those he knew to be dishonest or wicked of heart.

That's a lot different than entering into someone's house and sitting next to a sinner and chowing down on some grub and having a good time.

Aquila 07-18-2018 06:31 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
While Jesus certainly ate, visited with, and fellowshipped sincere, open minded, truth hungry, sinners.

But I don't see an instance wherein Jesus went to the taverns, brothels, and festivities wherein these things were taking place.

I'd avoid these places unless I felt a clear and specific leading of the Holy Spirit to go in on a mission. A bar & grill might be my only exception. I might go in if it were a decent hour of the day and I was just stopping for food and drink. The reputation of the bar & grill and the daily clientele would help determine my decision.

Wilsonwas 07-18-2018 02:48 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1541096)
While Jesus certainly ate, visited with, and fellowshipped sincere, open minded, truth hungry, sinners.

But I don't see an instance wherein Jesus went to the taverns, brothels, and festivities wherein these things were taking place.

I'd avoid these places unless I felt a clear and specific leading of the Holy Spirit to go in on a mission. A bar & grill might be my only exception. I might go in if it were a decent hour of the day and I was just stopping for food and drink. The reputation of the bar & grill and the daily clientele would help determine my decision.
Likely I will catch it for saying so, but nice pubs, not bars, and a nice little drink I think are actually good for you, unless you are the type that cannot stop at one or two. If a brother were the type that cannot help himself, I would avoid all in order that he not stumble.
But, for me - a little in a nice place is fine. By nice place I would refer to the English country pub style, we have some of these in small towns about, and these I enjoy.

So perhaps I will be called a libertine, etc. Which I have learned is equivalent here to....." I disagree, I have no scripture I can twist hard enough to actually prove myself right thus I will discredit your sincerity as Apostolic"

I just dont buy the idea that we are to be so seperate as to not enjoy good things because so and so preached against it in the way back....

A lovely burbon, or single malt, meade, or wine in total moderation has been proven good for you by medical science. It certainly does no harm, and paired with a nice meal of Shepards Pie for instance - makes a nice evening nicer.

The same folk sometimes that may rail on me for this post, will kill it at Golden Coral, and die early from heart issues, but they see this not as glutinous- just sayin.

A brothel is no place to be at all.

A bar with a tendancy toward being a hook up shop, or where lonely drunks live out country /rock lyrics, I would avoid.

Not sure I fully understand festivites in your context, so ill not address that.

1ofthechosen 07-18-2018 03:02 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas (Post 1541142)
Likely I will catch it for saying so, but nice pubs, not bars, and a nice little drink I think are actually good for you, unless you are the type that cannot stop at one or two. If a brother were the type that cannot help himself, I would avoid all in order that he not stumble.
But, for me - a little in a nice place is fine. By nice place I would refer to the English country pub style, we have some of these in small towns about, and these I enjoy.

So perhaps I will be called a libertine, etc. Which I have learned is equivalent here to....." I disagree, I have no scripture I can twist hard enough to actually prove myself right thus I will discredit your sincerity as Apostolic"

I just dont buy the idea that we are to be so seperate as to not enjoy good things because so and so preached against it in the way back....

A lovely burbon, or single malt, meade, or wine in total moderation has been proven good for you by medical science. It certainly does no harm, and paired with a nice meal of Shepards Pie for instance - makes a nice evening nicer.

The same folk sometimes that may rail on me for this post, will kill it at Golden Coral, and die early from heart issues, but they see this not as glutinous- just sayin.

A brothel is no place to be at all.

A bar with a tendancy toward being a hook up shop, or where lonely drunks live out country /rock lyrics, I would avoid.

Not sure I fully understand festivites in your context, so ill not address that.
Proverbs 31:4-7 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." If that fits you then, drink up!

Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Apostolic1ness 07-18-2018 03:14 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas (Post 1541142)
Likely I will catch it for saying so, but nice pubs, not bars, and a nice little drink I think are actually good for you, unless you are the type that cannot stop at one or two. If a brother were the type that cannot help himself, I would avoid all in order that he not stumble.
But, for me - a little in a nice place is fine. By nice place I would refer to the English country pub style, we have some of these in small towns about, and these I enjoy.

So perhaps I will be called a libertine, etc. Which I have learned is equivalent here to....." I disagree, I have no scripture I can twist hard enough to actually prove myself right thus I will discredit your sincerity as Apostolic"

I just dont buy the idea that we are to be so seperate as to not enjoy good things because so and so preached against it in the way back....

A lovely burbon, or single malt, meade, or wine in total moderation has been proven good for you by medical science. It certainly does no harm, and paired with a nice meal of Shepards Pie for instance - makes a nice evening nicer.

The same folk sometimes that may rail on me for this post, will kill it at Golden Coral, and die early from heart issues, but they see this not as glutinous- just sayin.

A brothel is no place to be at all.

A bar with a tendancy toward being a hook up shop, or where lonely drunks live out country /rock lyrics, I would avoid.

Not sure I fully understand festivites in your context, so ill not address that.
So two wrongs makes it right for you to drink. still wrong.

Aquila 07-18-2018 03:17 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas (Post 1541142)
Likely I will catch it for saying so, but nice pubs, not bars, and a nice little drink I think are actually good for you, unless you are the type that cannot stop at one or two. If a brother were the type that cannot help himself, I would avoid all in order that he not stumble.
But, for me - a little in a nice place is fine. By nice place I would refer to the English country pub style, we have some of these in small towns about, and these I enjoy.

So perhaps I will be called a libertine, etc. Which I have learned is equivalent here to....." I disagree, I have no scripture I can twist hard enough to actually prove myself right thus I will discredit your sincerity as Apostolic"

I just dont buy the idea that we are to be so seperate as to not enjoy good things because so and so preached against it in the way back....

A lovely burbon, or single malt, meade, or wine in total moderation has been proven good for you by medical science. It certainly does no harm, and paired with a nice meal of Shepards Pie for instance - makes a nice evening nicer.

The same folk sometimes that may rail on me for this post, will kill it at Golden Coral, and die early from heart issues, but they see this not as glutinous- just sayin.

A brothel is no place to be at all.

A bar with a tendancy toward being a hook up shop, or where lonely drunks live out country /rock lyrics, I would avoid.

Not sure I fully understand festivites in your context, so ill not address that.
I tend to agree with you.

There is an awesome bar and grilled called, Tank's, near my home. It serves fantastic food and unless it is after 10pm, things are pretty calm and my family loves it. I'd never take kids there after 10pm, just sayin'. But a nice dinner, a nice drink, and some friendly conversation never hurt anyone.

I think we're in agreement.

Wilsonwas 07-18-2018 03:26 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Lol, figures you two would be first in on that

1."It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." If that fits you then, drink up!

I am neither king nor prince, I do manage things so - liquid lunch would be a bad idea, as is noted in this scriptire. I have a heavy heart by times, so I will take that portion and say no where did it say drink is a sin. It is good advice that those that use judgement in the ecercise of their position should not do so under its influence. So my occasional tip of a glass is just fine.

2.So two wrongs makes it right for you to drink. still wrong.
Since I do not see that moderate use of something that was also part of a miracle performed by Jesus, is wrong, that is not my arguement at all. Rather in the spirit of motes and beams in eyes, some fat guy in a suit and clean shaven, will consume great amounts of food, yet feel justified to call me a sinner......cause he is a preacher and all.

berkeley 07-18-2018 03:30 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Lambusco Dolce from H-E-B. Served chilled. Mmmm

Aquila 07-18-2018 03:36 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen (Post 1541145)
Proverbs 31:4-7 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." If that fits you then, drink up!

Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
Let's look at the verse you posted.
Proverbs 31:4-7 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."
This verse admonishes leaders not to be given to wine. Lest they risk falling into drunkenness and forget the law and pervert judgment. This is a warning, not a law.

We also see this intoxicant being used medicinally.
- "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish...", strong drink (or any intoxicant for that matter) can be used to ease the pain and suffering of the dying.

- "and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.", wine can be used to ease anxiety. Many who are honest about an occasional glass of wine will tell you that it lightens the heart and the mood. But one must not forget, too much of a good thing can bring one to drunkenness. It's all about moderation.
Wine is considered a blessing:
Psalm 104:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
Wine, partaken in responsibly, makes glad the heart of man.

Even Paul recommends that Timothy take a little wine for medicinal purposes:
1 Timothy 5:23 (ESV)
(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
When observing the feasts, God even commanded His people to party with their fill of wine and strong drink:
Deuteronomy 14:24-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
Essentially... drunkenness is to alcoholic beverages (intoxicants) what gluttony is to food. Neither food nor alcoholic beverages are a "sin" in and of themselves. It is the abuse of food and/or alcohol that is a sin. Christ's first miracle was turning water to wine. And the holiest of Christian sacraments traditionally involves wine (the Lord's Supper).

If we call what God has called a blessing, "sin", we spit in the face of the Creator and call Him a liar.
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Aquila 07-18-2018 03:39 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Of course, mental midgets, and men given to extremes or extremism, should never drink. They are ungoverned and live at full throttle regardless of what direction they take or decision they make.

But those who have self-control and live temperate lives do not sin if they continue in their moderation.

1ofthechosen 07-18-2018 03:56 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1541155)
Let's look at the verse you posted.
Proverbs 31:4-7 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."
This verse admonishes leaders not to be given to wine. Lest they risk falling into drunkenness and forget the law and pervert judgment. This is a warning, not a law.

We also see this intoxicant being used medicinally.
- "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish...", strong drink (or any intoxicant for that matter) can be used to ease the pain and suffering of the dying.

- "and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.", wine can be used to ease anxiety. Many who are honest about an occasional glass of wine will tell you that it lightens the heart and the mood. But one must not forget, too much of a good thing can bring one to drunkenness. It's all about moderation.
Wine is considered a blessing:
Psalm 104:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
Wine, partaken in responsibly, makes glad the heart of man.

Even Paul recommends that Timothy take a little wine for medicinal purposes:
1 Timothy 5:23 (ESV)
(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
When observing the feasts, God even commanded His people to party with their fill of wine and strong drink:
Deuteronomy 14:24-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
Essentially... drunkenness is to alcoholic beverages (intoxicants) what gluttony is to food. Neither food nor alcoholic beverages are a "sin" in and of themselves. It is the abuse of food and/or alcohol that is a sin. Christ's first miracle was turning water to wine. And the holiest of Christian sacraments traditionally involves wine (the Lord's Supper).

If we call what God has called a blessing, "sin", we spit in the face of the Creator and call Him a liar.
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Strong drink and wine in scripture are 2 different things. Only the dregs of society in those times drank fermented drink. To have the best and freshest wine was a status symbol.And the only way the Lord's supper is served with wine like your talking about is in a Catholic church.. I guess now your in support of Roman Catholicism and the Pope, because they are all for drinking in church..

Wine and water in Timothy's case purified the water, but it wouldn't intoxicate you. Which you can tell by Pauls admonition of Timothy that Timothy didn't want to do it. He was apprehensive of mixing it with water, as to make the water drinkable.

But if your dying then drink and be merry for tommorow you die. But if you are made a King and Priest as was promised to you, Strong drink is not for you, says so in the scripture..

Wilsonwas 07-18-2018 04:17 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1541153)
Lambusco Dolce from H-E-B. Served chilled. Mmmm
I am completely unfamiliar with this, can you elaborate. Glenfiddich I know.

Aquila 07-18-2018 04:18 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen (Post 1541159)
Strong drink and wine in scripture are 2 different things. Only the dregs of society in those times drank fermented drink. To have the best and freshest wine was a status symbol.And the only way the Lord's supper is served with wine like your talking about is in a Catholic church.. I guess now your in support of Roman Catholicism and the Pope, because they are all for drinking in church..
I'm no more in support of Roman Catholicism than you my dear brother, for it is you who also believes in the infallibility of the pastor to make up laws such as defining beards as "sin". lol

Ah, but again, you're creating a false dichotomy. I'm not in support of Catholicism just because I believe that alcohol isn't a sin in and of itself. I could care less what the Catholic church thinks of alcohol or anything else for that matter. If alcohol were a sin in and of itself, Paul wouldn't admonish a "little sin" to mix with water for Timothy's stomach.

Quote:
Wine and water in Timothy's case purified the water, but it wouldn't intoxicate you. Which you can tell by Pauls admonition of Timothy that Timothy didn't want to do it. He was apprehensive of mixing it with water, as to make the water drinkable.
Again, alcoholic drink in and of itself isn't a "sin", else Paul would be recommending a "little sin" to be mixed with water for Timothy's sake.

What must be guarded against is drunkenness. A glass of wine with food is largely without effect. Timothy was obviously a young man who feared becoming drunken. Paul's admonishment was a good one for him. But had Timothy not been so timid about alcohol... perhaps Paul wouldn't have even had to advise him on the matter. Timothy would have already chosen to take some wine for his stomach problems, and Paul wouldn't have even found need to mention it.

Quote:
But if your dying then drink and be merry for tommorow you die. But if you are made a King and Priest as was promised to you, Strong drink is not for you, says so in the scripture..
The admonition to kings and priests is in relation to falling into drunkenness and failing in their duties do to being drunk on the job. It wasn't a commandment against having wine with dinner. Hence the statement, "Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." As an authority, you can only "pervert judgment" while on the job issuing judgments.

Wilsonwas 07-18-2018 04:20 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
:highfive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1541166)
I'm no more in support of Roman Catholicism than you my dear brother, for it is you who also believes in the infallibility of the pastor to make up laws such as defining beards as "sin". lol

Ah, but again, you're creating a false dichotomy. I'm not in support of Catholicism just because I believe that alcohol isn't a sin in and of itself. If it were, Paul wouldn't admonish a "little sin" to mix with water for Timothy's stomach.



Again, alcoholic drink in and of itself isn't a "sin", else Paul would be recommending a "little sin" to be mixed with water for Timothy's sake.

What must be guarded against is drunkenness. A glass of wine with food is largely without effect.



The admonition to kings and priests is in relation to falling into drunkenness and failing in their duties do to being drunk on the job. It wasn't a commandment against having wine with dinner.
:highfive

Wilsonwas 07-18-2018 04:22 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
I still find it hilarious that somehow, holiness is equated with the look of Ward Cleaver, and the attitude of an "Oakie from Misgokie"
Neither of these are holy....

berkeley 07-18-2018 04:32 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Last year as I was shopping for grocery store sushi I was offered a sample of Lambrusco Dolce. It’s a red. A little sweet, but not necessarily a dessert wine. It’s not as dry as many wines. I had a bottle on Thanksgiving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas (Post 1541165)
I am completely unfamiliar with this, can you elaborate. Glenfiddich I know.

1ofthechosen 07-18-2018 04:32 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1541166)
I'm no more in support of Roman Catholicism than you my dear brother, for it is you who also believes in the infallibility of the pastor to make up laws such as defining beards as "sin". lol

Ah, but again, you're creating a false dichotomy. I'm not in support of Catholicism just because I believe that alcohol isn't a sin in and of itself. I could care less what the Catholic church thinks of alcohol or anything else for that matter. If alcohol were a sin in and of itself, Paul wouldn't admonish a "little sin" to mix with water for Timothy's stomach.



Again, alcoholic drink in and of itself isn't a "sin", else Paul would be recommending a "little sin" to be mixed with water for Timothy's sake.

What must be guarded against is drunkenness. A glass of wine with food is largely without effect. Timothy was obviously a young man who feared becoming drunken. Paul's admonishment was a good one for him. But had Timothy not been so timid about alcohol... perhaps Paul wouldn't have even had to advise him on the matter. Timothy would have already chosen to take some wine for his stomach problems, and Paul wouldn't have even found need to mention it.



The admonition to kings and priests is in relation to falling into drunkenness and failing in their duties do to being drunk on the job. It wasn't a commandment against having wine with dinner. Hence the statement, "Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." As an authority, you can only "pervert judgment" while on the job issuing judgments.
No one even said the word sin not my pastor or anyone about beards. So..

And no one said it was a sin to drink, but it's is unprofitable, and worldly so there's that. But hey "drink and be merry for tommorow you die", the new hit song from Young Jeezy. Hey Y.O.L.O. right?

Having this conversation with you and Mr song book is also unprofitable.. So it profits me as much as drinking so I might as well cut it.. lol

Wilsonwas 07-18-2018 04:42 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1541169)
Last year as I was shopping for grocery store sushi I was offered a sample of Lambrusco Dolce. It’s a red. A little sweet, but not necessarily a dessert wine. It’s not as dry as many wines. I had a bottle on Thanksgiving.
Well thank you for the tip.

Wilsonwas 07-18-2018 04:46 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen (Post 1541170)
No one even said the word sin not my pastor or anyone about beards. So..

And no one said it was a sin to drink, but it's is unprofitable, and worldly so there's that. But hey "drink and be merry for tommorow you die", the new hit song from Young Jeezy. Hey Y.O.L.O. right?

Having this conversation with you and Mr song book is also unprofitable.. So it profits me as much as drinking so I might as well cut it.. lol

Might be right about that, but I have learned to enjoy the discussions....:thumbsup

berkeley 07-18-2018 04:47 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas (Post 1541173)
Might be right about that, but I have learned to enjoy the discussions....:thumbsup
Not everyone enjoys discussion.

Wilsonwas 07-18-2018 04:51 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley (Post 1541174)
Not everyone enjoys discussion.
Yes, I had to learn that some here were not actually the song book tossing preacher I once met. They are not a threat.

Apostolic1ness 07-19-2018 06:40 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas (Post 1541150)
Lol, figures you two would be first in on that

1."It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." If that fits you then, drink up!

I am neither king nor prince, I do manage things so - liquid lunch would be a bad idea, as is noted in this scriptire. I have a heavy heart by times, so I will take that portion and say no where did it say drink is a sin. It is good advice that those that use judgement in the ecercise of their position should not do so under its influence. So my occasional tip of a glass is just fine.

2.So two wrongs makes it right for you to drink. still wrong.
Since I do not see that moderate use of something that was also part of a miracle performed by Jesus, is wrong, that is not my arguement at all. Rather in the spirit of motes and beams in eyes, some fat guy in a suit and clean shaven, will consume great amounts of food, yet feel justified to call me a sinner......cause he is a preacher and all.


This does not negate the fact your a sinner....that is "if" you are a sinner desiring to consume alcoholic beverages.

Wilsonwas 07-19-2018 10:11 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness (Post 1541235)
[/B]

This does not negate the fact your a sinner....that is "if" you are a sinner desiring to consume alcoholic beverages.
So you are saying alcohol consumption is a sin.

I do not beleive this.

We can disagree for 40 pages but this will likely change no ones mind.

Apostolic1ness 07-19-2018 10:37 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas (Post 1541263)
So you are saying alcohol consumption is a sin.

I do not beleive this.

We can disagree for 40 pages but this will likely change no ones mind.
You are free to be deceived and unwise and drink as much as you like.
Proverbs 20:1 wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

scripture is not on your side in this matter. no matter what you believe or dont believe.

Aquila 07-19-2018 10:58 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen (Post 1541170)
No one even said the word sin not my pastor or anyone about beards. So..

And no one said it was a sin to drink, but it's is unprofitable, and worldly so there's that. But hey "drink and be merry for tommorow you die", the new hit song from Young Jeezy. Hey Y.O.L.O. right?

Having this conversation with you and Mr song book is also unprofitable.. So it profits me as much as drinking so I might as well cut it.. lol
LOL

I wouldn't say that it is entirely unprofitable. It allows the readers to see how brothers in the Lord can have a disagreement, express why and where they disagree, and maintain the bonds of fellowship.

I don't believe alcohol is all that profitable either. Red wine has some health benefits, but those benefits aren't exclusively restricted to red wine. Drunkenness should always be denounced and guarded against. But, I wouldn't call consumption of wine "worldly". Wine has been a part of human life throughout Scripture. And even "strong drink" in some contexts. I think moderation and discretion is key. If one cannot control their alcohol consumption, they shouldn't partake in it.

I believe there is room for individual conscience on the matter. I believe that the Lord would hold far greater offense at division and unwarranted denunciation within the body over alcohol than alcohol itself.

Aquila 07-19-2018 11:06 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness (Post 1541235)
[/B]

This does not negate the fact your a sinner....that is "if" you are a sinner desiring to consume alcoholic beverages.
Consuming alcohol doesn't make one a "sinner". The abuse of alcohol, sex, food, even money is sin. However, nothing about these things in and of themselves is sin in proper context and moderation. It is the abuse of such things that reveals a deeper problem within the heart of man.
Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Romans 14:19-22
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Apostolic1ness 07-19-2018 11:19 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1541280)
Consuming alcohol doesn't make one a "sinner". The abuse of alcohol, sex, food, even money is sin. However, nothing about these things in and of themselves is sin in proper context and moderation. It is the abuse of such things that reveals a deeper problem within the heart of man.
Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Romans 14:19-22
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
in what context is beer, jack Daniels, crown royal, tequila, and wine not sin if consumed by someone called a saint?

Wilsonwas 07-19-2018 11:28 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness (Post 1541271)
You are free to be deceived and unwise and drink as much as you like.
Proverbs 20:1 wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

scripture is not on your side in this matter. no matter what you believe or dont believe.
Reading that scripture I see no prohibition.

I do see an admonition to not allow deception because a condition of overconsumption may indeed dull your judgement. I agree completely that allowing it fo cloud your judgement - making you have an unwise choice.

This scripture is not on anyone's "side", it is instructional and edifying, not a command.

Many things are debated here, cutting ladies hair, facial hair, TV, entertainment outside the home, clothing.

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments ",

Find me a command, not a debatable single verse, out of context that prohibits a drink or two. Not verses that caution regarding use, or condemn the abuser. One adds to scripture "laying on burdens", when one uses verses that caution to be wise, to equate all actions regarding the subject to be on par with "Thou shalt / shalt not"

I have heard elders berate a man for not having enough control of his house, because the wife bought something without asking. In direct counterdiction of the good wife description in Proberbs - where she buys a vinyard to profit the household on her own.

Seems some want to promote Wesleyan holiness standards concieved of by Trinitarians, and "good ol 'merican values, to the level of scripture. Most often this is so they can sing out something on the order of, "we dont drink, or smoke or chew, and we dont run with the girls that do......or similar crud.

Pharasitical mess - to me.

JoeBandy 07-19-2018 11:30 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness (Post 1541282)
in what context is beer, jack Daniels, crown royal, tequila, and wine not sin if consumed by someone called a saint?
In the same context as Ruth Chris Western Sizzlen Shoneys Taco Bell and Mcdonalds

JoeBandy 07-19-2018 11:31 AM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas (Post 1541283)
Reading that scripture I see no prohibition.

I do see an admonition to not allow deception because a condition of overconsumption may indeed dull your judgement. I agree completely that allowing it fo cloud your judgement - making you have an unwise choice.

This scripture is not on anyone's "side", it is instructional and edifying, not a command.

Many things are debated here, cutting ladies hair, facial hair, TV, entertainment outside the home, clothing.

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments ",

Find me a command, not a debatable single verse, out of context that prohibits a drink or two. Not verses that caution regarding use, or condemn the abuser. One adds to scripture "laying on burdens", when one uses verses that caution to be wise, to equate all actions regarding the subject to be on par with "Thou shalt / shalt not"

I have heard elders berate a man for not having enough control of his house, because the wife bought something without asking. In direct counterdiction of the good wife description in Proberbs - where she buys a vinyard to profit the household on her own.

Seems some want to promote Wesleyan holiness standards concieved of by Trinitarians, and "good ol 'merican values, to the level of scripture. Most often this is so they can sing out something on the order of, "we dont drink, or smoke or chew, and we dont run with the girls that do......or similar crud.

Pharasitical mess - to me.
yep what he said

Aquila 07-19-2018 12:01 PM
Re: What's the difference?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness (Post 1541282)
in what context is beer, jack Daniels, crown royal, tequila, and wine not sin if consumed by someone called a saint?
As long as one doesn't drink unto drunkenness, or in front of a weaker brother, there is no "sin".

Although, the drinks you specifically named are drinks that are very strong. I'd not recommend them without also recommending caution.

Did God encourage "sin"???
Deuteronomy 14:24-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.


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