Who's Job is it???!!!
 

I was recently told by a lock-step member of the local UPC that the ONLY person who is charged/responsible/called, etc. to talk/explain/discuss standards is the pastor. I asked him what was wrong with wearing shorts, and he jumped on me using this answer and especially...especially...did I mention especially with regard to new converts!!

The local UPC here has a series of groups that have church in the home every other Wed night. The large church is divided up into groups around the city and each group comprises 5-6 familes or less. They have a lesson prepared by the pastor, music, and even offering.

Anyway, this dude told me that the leaders (hand picked by the pastor) have been admonished that under no circumstances are they to discuss standards.

Now I am wondering, new folks are to be brought into the church, assimilated, THEN preached to or exposed to standards, or WHAT? I remember when we got into the UPC, they sprung them on us as a matter of...well, you have friends here, you are part of our church, you are one of us...but um...we don't do that.

Kinda like bait and switch...

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

Reminds me of how the Catholic church would not let their members read the Bible and only the ones in charge could properly interpret and teach it.

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

I've seen that style of "cell" group before. It's totally orchestrated by the pastor; the discussion topic, songs etc.
So much for an open Bible discussion.:nah

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

Who's job is it?
All of us whom God enables (Who have the skill) should teach what is in the Bible. Practical applications can be taught alongside scripture IMO as well.

As far as standards go, just adhere to the Bible and anyone can teach that. But for the sake of unity they should 'all speak the same thing'-as in they should all stick with scripture and not run down another group or teaching within their church or have holiness contests going on.

Offerings at house meetings? Pastor approved bible studies? Yikes!

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

The examples of how the OP churches have never really shaken off the catholic idea of priests and vicars.

We went nuts about shaking off what we perceived as false doctrines on God, but never looked at how perverse they had made the doctrine of church leadership. Sad really. Now we have a culture of control where even asking questions on the authority a Pastor should have get syou labelled a rebel.

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

I think in the interest of self preservation, the groups are shaken up once in a while if they get too big, and really, free thought is kind of discouraged because NO one wants any of these groups to turn into a little church.

While I think the church took a huge risk to avoid this, they put measures in place from allowing it to happen...God forbid we do things like they did in the biblical days...

"The bretheren after the disciples followed, chose to build monumental tabernacles like that of the days of Solomon, with majestic pillars, marble platforms, and as many rooms as in the city of Isreal, all that will serve the masses and for this cause, men, women and children will be compelled to travel great distances past the homes and sepulchers of their bretheren and childhood to convene in the castle tabernacle."
II Phillip 3:3 :D

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

Sometimes pastors may make a rule like this to protect new converts from overzealous saints who think it is their mission to dress everyone right.

There is nothing more appalling than for someone who is just beginning a relationship with the Lord to be bombarded by well meaning but deluded people trying to "line them up".

I don't mean this in a spring it on them later way either. I think if people are allowed space to grow and taught scriptural principles they will get to a place where they make changes without much prodding at all.

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

Great post John, I agree completely in a general sense of Christian conduct. I am just becoming more and more suspicious of the concept of apostolic standards, how they are vetted and taught and the deception behind their true meaning and intent.

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

You beat me to the punch!

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

I agree with you and concur. They are too easily used as a control mechanism. It isn't always about modesty and separation, those are just buzzwords used by some to mask a plain and simple desire to control, bending people to the will of the pastor rather than the will of God. As though the two were one and the same.

I kinda think God hates that.

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

I am 100% fer sure He hates it. ;-)

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

The new convert process should be a slow learning observation process. No timeline at all.
In the past attended a upc church that had a GREAT revival. Many baptized, received HG and lots of excitement in the church.
When evangelist left, the new "saints" were put in a new converts/decipleship class on Wed nights while the others were in regular service upstairs.
The asst pastor (who taught class) was very zealous re the truth and gave the "rules" early on. Within a month only a few remained. After a year ............

I was saddened and dismayed to see the results.

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

Why should standards be pounded into someone? Most people will, given time and led right, conform to a standard set by a true leader.

I've seen more people conform due to compliments than condemnation.

What is preached more in a church? How to dress? How to act toward each other? Obedience? Tithes and offerings and give and you'll be blessed financially? That the pastor is the head of the church? That the devil is real and out to get us? That we'd better do what God wants or we'll burn in Hell forever and ever? or...
That God is in control, that He is great and wonderful, we are His sheep and his children, that He will take care of us, and protect and defend us?

Why not stop telling people how to live and show them what living really is??

My question is not who's job it is, but what is our job?

As for the pastor's job... IF he is the head of the local church as is commonly purported by some, the head is still NOTHING without the body, and can do NOTHING on its own. A lot of leaders would do well to remember that. A good head doesn't beat up its body and downgrad its responsibilities while praising itself.

JMO

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

Carp,
great to have your posting in mix...

I fully agree with the JA interpretation on this one....
this is not a counsel that generally flows from a Pastor wanting to be the "supreme potato" ....
much more likely it is his efforts to constrain the foot soldiers from playing youthful (or even resentful) dress-ups with the newly converted.

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

What is interesting to me is when a relatively new convert makes the statement (or something similar and 99% of the time a woman), "no one had to tell me about standards, one day I just decided not to wear pants...or cut my hair, etc...It was Holy Ghost conviction."

Ok...maybe. However, more often than not, when you identify with a group, the group treats you well, shows you lots of attention, tells you they love you, and makes sure you remain part of their group OF COURSE you are going to assimilate to what they believe and no one is going to have to tell you!

However, and like a friend of mine with their wedding rings, all it takes is for someone to make a comment here and there or to look down their noses about the evils of wearing or not wearing this or that and you pretty much get the picture.

Like I said before, the exact same thing happened to us..."um, Carpenter, we really don't allow TVs or wear shorts here, but we love you and are sooo glad you are at our church, here, have this cherry pie we baked for you..."

:foottap

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

This thread reminds me of a situation at my wife's church where she was raised.

One Sunday night the pastor chastised people for getting together for bible studies! If they wanted a bible study in their home, they were to invite HIM to teach it! If they had a question about anything in the bible, they were to come to HIM for answers.

He actually told the congregation that they were NOT TO HAVE BIBLE STUDIES!

IMO, it's all about control! The truth is that this pastor didn't trust people to study the bible on their own. He was the "anointed" one, the king of his domain, and the official interpreter of scripture.

The people were mere sheep, incapable of figuring out anything on their own. They are not to be trusted with their own lives! They need the pastor to tell them everything to do.....and to do it without complaint!

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

My thoughts are that Christ should be the HEAD of every home and every
church or place of worship. Except the LORD build the home or church, it
will not stand. In is vain labour! And a house divided against itself, (in other
words, out of order), cannot stand. "But he (Jesus) answered and said, Every
plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up". Matt.
15:13.

Falla39

Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
 

A word aptly spoken, sis Falla! AMEN!!! :thumbsup