How to destroy a thread
 

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Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

You referring to holiness or sanctification? They many times are the same greek word but are thrown down differently in the NT in english depending on the translators view.

I'm about 180 degrees from alot of the stuff on WeDespair.. errr.. you know :) and the spirit its done in, but i believe in sanctification and the sanctification process begins with a right relationship with God and understanding how to apply his word in daily life.

The word Holy in the bible is a multi-usage word with multiple meanings depending if your OT or NT and it constantly gets raped by our brothers who Paul wrote the book of Galatians for.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Right.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

For every defensive wall that gets overwhelmed leading to defeat, the defense from the conservatives gets weaker and weaker.

They need to save their energy for battles that really matter! Don't sweat the small stuff!

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

It's a pity the cons are so polemic, if they would stop and actually look at the quality churches they call liberal like Grace Church of Humble or Promiseland in Austin and actually look at their day to day stuff, they wouldnt find much of a difference. They fight so much over linguistics and philosophy thinking that the end result is much different.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Where in that verse, do you find outward standards? You and other have been told it means outward standards, but what does "holiness" mean in that verse.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

NIV© Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
NAS© Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
ISV© Pursue peace with everyone, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
GWT© Try to live peacefully with everyone, and try to live holy lives, because if you don't, you will not see the Lord.
KJV Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
AKJ Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
ASV Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:
BBE Let your desire be for peace with all men, and to be made holy, without which no man may see the Lord;
DRB Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.
DBY Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord:
ERV Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:
WBS Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
WEY but may rather be restored. Persistently strive for peace with all men, and for that growth in holiness apart from which no one will see the Lord.
WEB Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord,
YLT peace pursue with all, and the separation, apart from which no one shall see the Lord,


Both. It depends on your definition and how you intend to apply the word holiness. Is it a state of absolute purity, a state of separation from the world (and how so), a process, or take your pick. We can go at each other for another 20 pages and play a game of semantical demolition derby and in the end we will both think that we should live by the 3 M's - Morality, Modesty and Moderation but will think the other one is askew because we spent so much mental energy and a few cans of Dr. Pepper to build a fort with high walls made of brick shaped stupid.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts...spbo/BDS04.HTM

THE MEANING OF SANCTIFY, AND THE DEFINITION OF THE DOCTRINE OF SANCTIFICATION.

1. Our definition of sanctify gives consecration or dedication as its radical, true, primary idea. This is the philological power of our English word. It is compound, -fy (facio), "to make," and sanctus, "sacred." But it is to be remembered, that [66] the sacred things and gods of Rome were very unclean. And their sanctificatio corresponded to the Greek hagiosma (hagios). This Greek word, the one invariably used in the New Testament, and variously translated, as hallowed, holy, sanctify, sanctification, saint, holiness, is compound. Its parts are a, a privative, or negative; and gee, "the earth." Accordingly one sanctified is one not of the earth. One who is separated from the earth, and dedicated or consecrated to the gods, to God (Dr. Clarke). The latest and best Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines the term thus: "1. Consecration, purification. 2. The effect of consecration." The Hebrew. for which this Greek and this English word are equivalents, is defined by Oehler thus: "1. Being taken out of worldliness. 2. Being appropriated by God." Consecration is the prevailing idea here.

2. That consecration expresses the true power of the word sanctify, and the original words for which it stands, cannot be made clearer than by a few quotations from Scripture.

(1) Of objects sanctified in which there is no moral character. "Take up the censers out of the burning . . . for they are sanctified" (Nu 16:37). "And the tent shall be sanctified" (Ex 29:43). "Set bounds about the mountain, and sanctify it" (Ex 19:23). "And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the Tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt sanctify it, and all the furniture thereof, and it shall be sanctified" (Ex 40:9). Many similar texts can be quoted, in which objects of every variety are said to be sanctified. And this evidently not in the sense of being made pure and clean, for no change is effected, nor can be, for they have no moral character. Nothing of this kind can he sanctified in the sense of being made pure and clean morally. This applies to infants just born, who in various places are said to have been sanctified; and to fields, garments, grapes and wine, etc.

(2) Of God, who is infinitely pure, and cannot be sanctified in any other sense than that of being set apart in our thoughts and acts from all that is worldly and impure. "But I will be sanctified among the children of Israel" (Le 22:32). "And I will sanctify my great name, which has been profaned among the nations" (Eze 36:23). "And God, the [67] sanctified one, is sanctified in righteousness" (Isa 5:16). God is not made pure by any of these acts of sanctification.

(3) Persons of mixed qualities of moral character are sanctified. "Sanctify the congregation" (Joe 2:16) "Sanctify the people" (Ex 19:14). "And he sanctified Jesse and his sons" (1Sa 16:5). "It pertaineth not unto thee, Uzziah, to burn incense unto the Lord, but to the priests, the sons of Aaron, that are sanctified to burn incense" (2Ch 26:18).

(4) Of morally unclean men. Thus men known to have been impure, and to have remained so, were sanctified (set apart) for special purposes. "And I will sanctify destroyers against thee" (Jer 22:7). "Sanctify the nations against her" (Jer 51:27, 28). "Job sent and sanctified them" (Job 1:5). But men consecrated to the impure, sensual worship of Astarte (the Sodomites) are called sanctified, and the word harlot in five instances is the translation of the feminine of Kah-dash (Ge 38:21 (two times), Ge 38:22 De 23:17 Ho 4:14). So the word is at times translated defiled and unclean.

3. In these facts we have unanswerable arguments in favor of the definition given of the word sanctify. And as the Greek word must in these instances be equivalent to the Hebrew, the same definition applies to it. In this connection we need to recall the rule laid down in our second chapter, to the effect that the words of Scripture must be taken in their historical sense. It is wholly immaterial what sanctify means to-day, except in so far as it is used as a synonym of the words found in Scripture. And to know what these words mean we must go back to the time when they were used and inquire into their meaning then. That meaning must govern the interpretation of Scripture.

4. The definition which will hence stand the test of the hottest fires of criticism is, that the word sanctify, in its various forms, means "to dedicate," "set apart," "consecrate," with the implication that the person sanctified partakes of the character of the object for, or the person to, which he is sanctified. In favor of this definition we have the definitions commonly given, the translations and the facts. Primarily moral character, then, has nothing to do with the word. But gradually, by a law of association, the sacred literature of Hebrews and Christians [68] connected the moral character of purity with it. Hence, the doctrine of sanctification in the New Testament as deduced from this investigation is as follows: Sanctification is the consecration of the believer to God in his person, and the consequent purifying by the Spirit through the truth of his nature.

It will be borne in mind that by person we mean, as before defined, the moral man, the intelligent, voluntary being, the mind, the will, the "I," the self, der ich, as an intelligent, voluntary power. And by nature, the "flesh," the affections, sentiments, passions and involuntary powers. Man as to the person, the "I," being justified, renewed, born, again, purified, is dedicated, consecrated to God. This is the sanctification of the man as person. In virtue of this fact a process of sanctification goes thenceforth on, or is to go on, until he is wholly sanctified; until the nature is made pure, mortified, crucified and brought into captivity to the law of God. The sanctification of the person must take place at the time of justification, and is instantaneous. The sanctification of the nature cannot take place until afterwards, and cannot be instantaneous. The doctrine as thus stated will be made the subject of investigation and proof in subsequent chapters.

We recur to our definition of the doctrine of Sanctification, namely: "Sanctification is the consecration of the believer to God in his person (personality), and the consequent purifying by the Spirit through the truth of his nature. If this is the true doctrine it must be capable of gathering into itself all the facts of sanctification as found in the Bible. No definition is adequate and true that fails to do this. That this definition fully meets the rules of definitions as laid down by Sir William Hamilton will appear evident as we proceed.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

"Holiness" being consecrated, sanctified, set apart.

Again, where in this does one see outward standards? Is the verse really that shallow?

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Interesting perspective

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

WOW! Did the first part of that verse sure leap out at me... after hearing the quoted "holiness without which no man shall see the Lord" part for most of my life. The complete verse is.... FOLLOW PEACE WITH ALL MEN, and HOLINESS.... now does that not put it in context??

Sure sounds like we do the opposite, when we fight for our version of holiness standards and leave the "peace with all men" part out!!

I mean think about it, if we are condemning our brother, neighboring pastor, church, etc because their holiness doesn't line up to our conviction... how in the world are we also following peace with all men. What if the verse means you need "peace with all men and holiness" together... two things.... or you won't see the LORD!!!

<I think I will leave now feeling convicted>

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Exactly!

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Its funny how the ultra-ultra-cons are already alluding to and building up the groundwork for DB as a comprimiser if he doesn't come out hard enough for them off the bat for being open to dialogue with others considering he...

A: Literally wrote the book(s) they use for advanced systematic theology
B: Is conservative in belief but was fairly moderate in operation as a District Superintendent in South Texas. Even I can't fault DB for how he ran the district, my uncle in S. Texas who pastors can't speak highly enough of him and how responsive he is to the pastors in that district, a real peace maker in real life no matter how his books come across depending on the person reading them.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

You noticed that too huh? LOL

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Whom is condemning, btw? I don't see that anywhere., I think those who seem to SEE that also
see demons under every rock - paranoia deluxe!! :lol
I also don't read in that verse being used in several prev. postings,
where holiness is defined at all!

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

We certainly need Holiness and it is essential for effective discipleship for believers,but I believe one work of the Holy Ghost,is for sanctification,as we pray and read the word,fast,pray in The Holy Ghost spend quality time with The Lord Holiness will develope because a quality relationship with The Lord will produce Holiness,Holiness goes from the innerward out not from the outerward in.


Also if we understand we are truly saved by grace,then if we listen to our teacher grace it teaches us to deny ungodliness and wordly lusts,true grace produces Christian character,and a responsible manner of living.

When we realize we are ambassadors for Christ,we will live in a manner as to represent the Kingdom of God.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

IMHO, there is nothing worse than unholy behavior in support of a perceived holy cause. That is what bothers me more than anything in all of this and did during my 20yrs in the UPCI. I saw it over and over and over. Good men desecrated by men who thought they were better because they thought they were more holy. This gets justified. A man in a "holy" war is incapable of being defeated! :D

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

We are not called to out holy each other,we are called to be conformed to the image of Christ,if we compare ourselves to ourselves we are not wise.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Do you think Bernard's election was a God-thing?

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Most of traditional standards are quicksand and have little B-I-B-L-E to back them up to the heaven or hell issues we claim them to be.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Well, since we won't use anything as silly as scholarly work to use... its my firm opinion that your usage of the modern english word holiness is improper in its context and comes with a lot of extra-biblical baggage that sends a lot of good christians to hell because they are improperly trained about their position in Christ and it makes alot of good people give up or go bad. But its just my opinion since we can't use greek word studies in this conversation, and since Jesus loves me more obviously, I win. How does that work for you?

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

FWIW - I really don't think the "WellIDoDeclare!.ORG" guys had much influence on the election of the new GS, or much say.

Looking over the list I only found one guy who is really respected within his district - and then a long list of guys I never heard of. The "leaders" were mostly outcasts and rabble (with the exception of that 'one guy').

The whole "bifurcated" thing shows just what pinheads these guys are. I seriously doubt you'll be seeing any of those names on the new GS's speaking invitation lists.

FWIW - the new GS has a long history and reputation for being "boring." That's what I like most about the guy. He's not likely to have any of these drama queens at his side.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Oh, don't go and bring the B-I-B-L-E into it. That just wrecks the good vibes we feel when we decry the bloomers someone else's granny is wearing.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

That just reeks of bifurbrication!

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

#4 - I took as you being wry. Maybe I missed that?

#6 - I know most of the top tier in the "WellIDoDeclare!.ORG" thing and believe me, they live to thump their chests. No matter what happens - good or bad or in between - they'll come out thumping their chests.

If Richard Gazowsky had been elected they'd be thumping their chests. If Leonard Westberg were raised from the dead and elected they'd be in Nirvana - thumping their chests.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

You realize that I have made an oath to say something disparaging everytime the name Westberg is mentioned on the internet, right?

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

So very true.

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

The late dear Brother LW must be spinning in his grave - trying to get a good position from which to thump his chest.

(There, Murph - does that help?) http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ons/icon10.gif

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

That'll do... :ursofunny

Just wait until GC next year and I can break out my, "X Died On A Cruise" t-shirt...

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

:ursofunny

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Ow!

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Over 1500 died on the Titanic alone... oh, did you think I meant something else? :whistle

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

No, Titanic. My bad. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ons/icon11.gif

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

Thanks for highlighting the stupid parts of your post in red! :spit

Re: How to destroy holiness- A primer
 

:helicopter