Sin, Life & Death
 

Let's start this off first with a question.

I know this is kind of off the wall question but I hope to begin a discussion from this question.

If Jesus had not been killed by men... being sinless... would he have ever died?

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Being that he was God in the flesh, he died only when he chose to die. With that said, it is interesting that the scriptures never indicate that he even got sick. It is clear that he came for the purpose of laying down his life. I believe he could have lived on forever in the flesh, if hypothetically, his purpose would or could have been circumvented.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

He was fully man, He would have died. Adam, apparently, needed the tree of life even though he was sinless.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

The wages of sin is death.... is that where you're going?

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Yes, this question does lead us back to Genesis. The question would be, was death inevitable before Adam and Eve sinned in the garden? I'm not sure that it was, since death was first mentioned as part of the curse (Genesis 3:19). It may be difficult to prove that death had been reserved for them from the beginning. Could Adam and Eve have lived indefinitely without sin? Why not? Their genetics were obviously different, and one might suppose that they were pure in that regard. Even after the curse of death, men still lived quite lengthy lives, e.g., Adam, Methuselah, etc. So I would contend that Adam needed the Tree of Life to live indefinitely, after he sinned, not before.

I also contend that Jesus was also fully God (Colossians 2:9). And my conclusion is that he could have lived indefinitely in that bodily form.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

He knows the end from the beginning and came knowing when and how He would die.

As to whether He could have lived forever, I don't know, since Mary being His earthly mother and coming here as a man with the laws of man and not as God then I think He would have either died or else He would have been raptured up like Elijah. JMO

Haven't really ever thought about it before and probably too early to this morning.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

:hypercoffee

I believe Jesus could only be subject to death after he tasted of the cup of our sin and took it upon himself to remove the curse from humanity. I believe that he was born of Mary, so that as God in flesh, it would be possible for him to taste death. It was his purpose.

But hypothetically, it is easy for me to believe that the one who demonstrated power over death on this earth, e.g. Lazarus, the Widow's son at Nain, Jairus' daughter, etc., could have denied death too. Yes, he was human like us, but the Spirit gave him immortality (John 10:18).

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

He did no sin, but was He at least in part "born in sin and shapen in iniquity" through His descent from His earthly mother? Catholics answer this with the "Immaculate Conception" of Mary, thus, they say, Jesus was born without the "taint" of original sin.

Without the Immaculate Conception, did Jesus have "original sin?" This of course assumes that original sin even exists.

Death spread to all men... (Romans 5:12) because of sin, and Jesus was a man. I'd say "yes," He would have died a natural death hypothetically.

However, if it weren't for His appointment at the cross He would never have even been born (John 18:36-37).

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

(2 Corinthians 5:21). What about his descent from his heavenly father (the eternal spirit)? Naturally speaking, we inherit our blood from our father. Isn't that what made him the "pure lamb of God?" I see your point though, and I agree, that hypothetically, he may have died a natural death. Of course, it would have been so, voluntarily and on his terms. :)

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

There are two types of death just as there are two types of life. Physical and spiritual. How is the word, death, being used in this context? Can it be used both ways at once? Is Paul saying the wages of sin is physical and spiritual death? The wages of sin is only spiritual death? The wages of sin is only physical death?

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

He would have grown old and died like the rest of us. We are not born with bodies that live for ever and then start degenerating once we sin. Babies can't sin and they die. Some even die before they see the light of day.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Great posts so far. I am sorry I have started this thread and have not been able to get back to it and Sunday is usually pretty busy too...

But, so far, Mizpeh is on the right trail.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

I think it's a bit too optimistic to say that there is even a "trail" on this on, D4T. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Could be. :)

Maybe tomorrow we can start hitting a few rabbit trails and see what we find. :)

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Would the Apostles ever had died? Bible never mentions them getting sick either.

:gotcha

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Will Peter's mother-in-law do? (Matthew 8:14-15) :)

Which goes back to my other point. I'm not sure that Jesus was even subject to sickness, unless he allowed it by choice. That was the key difference between him and us; our lives are uncertain, and we are subject to the laws of nature, yet, Jesus controlled his own destiny, and the laws of nature were subject to him.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

I do not think Adam needed the tree of life to physically live forever until after he sinned. Adam had no sin and only the one who sins must die. But the tree of life had the remedy for sin if man did sin. But the tree of life was primarily for God's life to be inside mankind.

Anyway, I agree Jesus would have died like anyone else. He was God in flesh, but that was NATURAL flesh and not spiritual flesh that does not die. He only took upon Himself a spiritual body when He resurrected.

There may be a point, though, to the idea that Jesus was without sin. For only the one who sins can die. But it had nothing to do with the fact He was God in flesh, for flesh is still flesh whether God is in it or not. The only connection we can see to Him being God in flesh is that this man him a sinless man. And maybe that would mean Jesus would not have died, being like Adam before the fall without sin.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Was Timothy an apostle? He had tummy trouble! ;)

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Brother Blume.

I will use your post to then present the next thing I wanted to bring out after we discussed whether the sinless one would have ever died.


The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

How does that statement play out in the life of the sinless one?

Is the statement "The soul that sinneth, it shall die.", in any way, making the statement "The soul that doesn't sin, will not die."?


Is the statement The soul that sinneth, it shall die referring on any level to the human flesh or is it stating exactly what it says... The SOUL that sinneth... it shall die?

What happens to a soul when it dies?

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Could it be speaking of merely the soul... because the soul which is 'saved' is rewarded with eternal life.

So are sinner's souls simply extinguished? This would fit in with the discussion on hell.

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Well I guess the tree of life was created only to be looked at if Adma didn't need it to live prior to sin. It served no purpose prior to sin and was forbidden to him after he sinned, sounds like a cruel joke.

Obviously I can't "prove" my position since the Bible doesn't really tell us but that's my take.

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Did the tree of knowledge of good & evil serve any purpose prior to their eating of it?

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I think we sometimes forget that he was completely human and subject to the same things we are. He became hungry when he didn't eat and thirsty when he didn't drink. I would contend if he came into contact with sickness he would also have become sick.

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Yes, it provided the opportunity to disobey.

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He did come in contact with sickness when He healed the lepers.

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OK. Does everyone who goes near a leper get leprosy?

If the flu virus found its way into his body I suspect it would have the same effect on the fully human Jesus Christ that it would on you or I.

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The foreign body (virus) would have to have been potent enough, on a supernatural level, to breach the healing virtue of that coursed through the body of Jesus (Luke 8:46). In short, he was flesh, but he was also God. He could not have died on the cross, unless the Spirit forsook the body. He would not have died naturally, unless the Spirit left the body. So hypothetically, as long as God was in that flesh, he could have lived for centuries, ending up somewhere in Hiroshima Japan. And on August 6, 1945, he would have walked out of the rubble seconds after the atomic blast; for as long as the Spirit of God dwelt in that physical body, he could not die.

I also agree with AQP about (Ezekiel 18:20). I believe this passage is illustrating the consequences of sin in the eternal sense.

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Good bible study question. I ask who killed Jesus. The biblical answer is He gave up the Ghost. It was a decision to depart the manifestation in the flesh. It was even forth told that they wouldn't break his legs as is custom. The soldiers could see the Spirit of Life was departed.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Are you saying that the man separated from God on the cross in order for Christ to die?

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The appearance of the 4th person as the son of God when Daniels buds were in the fire and they didn't even smell of smoke.

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I do not espouse the "Divine Flesh" doctrine. But my contention with the bolded portion is that your statement seems to diminish the supernatural ability of God. Was "fish and bread", just "fish and bread" even though it supernaturally multiplied in the hands of Jesus? He was able to regenerate the body of a dead man, and we have difficulty believing that his own body, (which knew no sin), could not have enjoyed those same supernatural regenerating powers if he so chose? Of course, this is all hypothetical, and the greater point was his purpose for being born. He came to die, not to live.

One last question though: What do you think if the young Jesus had been involved an early tragic accident, fatal enough to kill him. Would he have died before "his time?"

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

Wow!!
\
Slept thru the storm and walked on water, but you say he is under the curse.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The healing virtue was so strong, the woman could be healed by touching his garment. Don't think we have scripture of the first Adam before the fall getting sick or the second Adam being under the curse. He took the sins.

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No way. They tried to snag Jesus and he disappeared in a crowd. He became invisible. His time was not yet come.

Water to wine.

H2O=C2H5OH

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I am saying that unless the Spirit (the Father), departed from the physical body of Jesus (the Son), he would not have tasted of death. Otherwise, you have dead deity.

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That's is an odd doctrine. I think this is the weakest point of Oneness teaching in that it essentially denies to Jesus true humanity. Dr. Segraves once said God the Father could no separate himself from Jesus anymore than your father can withdraw his DNA from you. (Paraphrase - as close as I can recall)

Jesus cry on the cross I believe was a quote from the Psalms and not God literally separating from Jesus.

Everything Jesus did he did as a man submitted to God, not as God. He claimed limited knowledge, and limited abilities. These were not acts and He didn't have a split personality disorder He was fully human.

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You can't understand laws written in your own language I didn't expect you to follow the teachings originally written in another language. Peter walked on water too. Jesus said He did nothing on his own but only what he was directed to do by the Father. Miracles show Jesus' reliance on the Father they do not show his Deity, otherwise Paul and Peter and many others could claim Deity on the same basis.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

If I am understanding you correctly what you are espousing is Nestorianism.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

(John 10:30) would seem to give your position some difficulty, I think. And just in case doubt lingers, (Mark 2:9-10). Deity could not die, that is why the Spirit had to depart the body. Are you suggesting God died on the cross?

Paul and Peter were not divinely conceived.

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Can you understand laws writting English? This is not court where you take money to attack people. You seem to go after people.

You seem very hatefull. start a thread on attacking someone? You seem to have the insults. That is very uncommon with pentecostals.

I don't see scripture where Satan had a shot to bring the curse and sickness to Jesus. Jesus was pure and holy. It does say in Isaiah he wasn't handsome.

Re: Sin, Life & Death
 

That would be water into 200 proof vodka! :lol