Thou shalt murder?
 

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Defining what happened in the above Scripture is troubling. What we have, in modern terms, is mass genocide justified by God’s Authority, the prophet Samuel.

Many problems exist in drawing parallels to what is expected of people who claim God as loving, patient, kind, and a Gospel (Good News) that James says; But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Doing something like this today would draw Christians into outrage, because of how most feel about abortion, abuse of women, and compassion on innocent children.

Imagine, going into a city of human beings, where people are living with their families, abiding in the hope for another day, swords drawn, slaughtering a mother and her infant as she screams for mercy. People are people, no matter where we live, and cultures don’t separate the fact, we love our children, wives, husbands, grandparents, animals, even in situations where the poor and no so fortunate are born.

I thought we as God’s people are not supposed to kill. That we are to love our enemies; That we are to pray for those who despitefully use us; That blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy; That we are to forgive, seventy times seven; That if we don’t forgive the begging servant who owes us, our Father in Heaven won’t forgive us; That we are to forgive those who trespass against us; That we are to turn the other cheek. That Blessed are the peacemakers.

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

One main reason something like this took place with no protest was no access to large scale media, the secrecy of this atrocity kept quiet and out of touch by lack of graphic display to the everyday person. Imagine turning on your TV, or going to Youtube, watching actual footage of men slaughtering babies, mothers, animals, and the elderly.

Today, if we claimed God told us by the Prophet of God to go into Mexico City, San Francisco, Paris, killing every living, breathing human being and animal in the name of righteousness, the Church would go fanatical with insult. Look what happened during the Vietnam War, when the American people saw the atrocities there by some of our military.

How about Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia, and the Holocaust?

Yet somehow, we continue our strange attraction to events like this, preaching to the church about the rebellion of Saul. No worry to further instill fear in people, Samuel takes care of the final act by severing the King of Amalek into pieces in front of everybody. Do we call this humane? An act of God?

If we couldn’t do it, why should others do it, and why should we justify it? I honestly don’t see how this correlates to the Loving God we portray today in the Christian movement. I guess we still do what people have always done; Use what fits, and do whatever it takes to make it work, even if we must suppress them by FEAR!

Oh, but God loves them.......??????

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

IMHO. Christians should not shoot anyone and should not bear arms if they are in the military. (shoot away). LOL

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Only thing that comes to mind is God's ways are not ours?I've wondered about this too.God in the old testament don't seen to be like Jesus.This is example only; We are fighting a war on terror but where does it stop.There are some who train up a terrorist from the crib and they have been taught they do service to Allah by killing the infidels.
Maybe these we read about in the Old Testament like the Ammonites and the Hittites and all the other tites was a situation of getting rid of necessary evil or kill or be killed.The survival of God's chosen people probably depended on getting rid of Heathen tribes.Most of these tribes passed their babies through the fire in a worship of a strange God when in fact they were worshipping Satan(SAME THING)

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

See also:

1 Kings 20:35 And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him. 36 Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him.

This poor guy was ordered by God to kill a prophet of God. What a predicament! What would you do, in his shoes? Well, the guy was disobedient. Downright evil, perhaps. That's what disobeying God makes you, isn't it? God must have thought so, so He killed that evil man.

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

What we call the 6th commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" was quoted by Jesus as "Thou shalt do no murder" in Matthew 19:18.

YHWH made a difference between murder and the taking of life in battle or in capital punishment. God set up provisions for punishing someone who murdered someone else by instituting capital punishment before the law of Moses in Genesis 9:5-6. In the law of Moses capital punishment was to be administered for certain crimes such as murder, adultery, witchcraft, etc. The Apostle Paul reiterates the divine right for government to take a person's life as punishment in some cases in Romans 13:1-8.

One of the ways God has punished people in the past is by killing them. He did this to individuals and to groups. He did this in Noah's day by sending a flood. He did it in Exodus chapter 12 by killing the firstborn in every home that did not have the blood applied to the doorposts. And He did it through Israel to the people who lived in Canaan. Today we would call the way Israel conquered Canaan genocide or ethnic cleansing but it was the way God brought judgment upon them. Later, God brought judgment upon Israel through Babylon. We see that in the book of Habakkuk. This was under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant we are not commanded to kill off people to carry out the judgment of God.

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Would you kill a baby, a woman, or an elderly person with a sword, in the name of Jehovah if they were pleading for mercy, regardless of what time frame we are in?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

I would not in 2009.
If I were an Israelite in 1405 BC I would have to in order to obey YHWH.

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

And I suppose you would have your own son killed if he was disobedient? (Back then, I mean!)

And you would have obeyed God and captured the Mideanite little girls, and killed the male babies, kids, and adults (and the non-virgin ladies), if you had been in the good guys' army?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Not only Religion in its darkest form, but total contradiction of Old and New Testaments. According to you, God has changed.

Killing innocent people is murder, and a God who condones this will always confuse His creation.

Why are we so willing to accept something we haven't done?? Have you killed babies, women, or an old man or woman who can't move from a bed of affliction?

Your coldness towards this issue troubles me deeply.

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

You are judging God, NFS. :foottap

If God chooses to use the sword, famine, pestilence, or whatever He desires to punish a nation or an individual for sin (Eze 14:21), that is His choice. It is His creation, the work of His hands. He can do with it as He wishes. God gave Israel specific instructions when they were to take the land of promise and He gave them the reasons why they were to destroy everyone in the land. God gave Israel a law and the reasons for those laws.

I can only guess what you think of God striking Ananias and Sapphira dead when they lied to Him.

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

THIS IS WHAT GOD DONE FOR YOU;GOD IS LOVE)HE LOVED YOU THIS MUCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZUTt8XINPY

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Sam speaks with biblical understanding and good common sense. You would do well to listen to him:thumbsup

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

First, God condoning what was done in Amalek is what stands in question with me. We must consider the ultimate truth here, regardless of our Traditional stance on what we believe, “God Said”.

Do you know who Galileo is? In 1633 he was tried as a heretic and forced to recant his findings in science by the Catholic Church, and the reason is startling. He believed the Earth was not at the center of the universe, going against those who claimed, “God Said”. The below information is stunning.

Galileo's championing of Copernicanism was controversial within his lifetime, when a large majority of philosophers and astronomers still subscribed (at least outwardly) to the geocentric view that the Earth is at the centre of the universe. After 1610, when he began publicly supporting the heliocentric view, which placed the Sun at the centre of the universe, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. Although he was cleared of any offence at that time, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture" in February 1616,[10] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy," forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

Going back to the story of Amalek, there is no proof God told the Israelites to perform this atrocity. A man simply said, “God Said”. If you or I ignore this fact, we give place to unbelievable terror. Because humans are subject to fear, and have no real insight to the spirit world, anyone who claims to have “Contact”, we can shutter under this spell. This is not only proven, but is one of the most dangerous forms of manipulation on Planet Earth.

Galileo did not conform to far fetched theories or ideas simply because religious hierarchy was breathing down his neck with, “God Said”.

We are responsible to check the facts and understand our surroundings. Galileo studied the Universe and gained his understanding from his experience and the knowledge of what he could SEE. He broke through, “Out of sight, out of mind” to give the World the TRUTH about our Solar System and much more.

To accept the brutal killings of Amalek as justified by God is merely an opinion and cannot be proven. I’ve seen to many people over the last 30 years proclaim “God Said”, only to find their words were just that, WORDS. We can go on believing the World is flat, but the Truth is the Truth.

About a half a mile from my home is a Senior Citizen facility. Many are handicapped or bedridden. I’ve been there to pray for the sick or participate in one of the services. I’ve held their hands and looked into their eyes, noticing the great strength they once had is gone. What you’re telling me is, “God Said” to go into a place like that and kill these helpless people with a sword.

Would you do it??? Would you kill these helpless people?? Have you killed someone who is feeble and unable to defend themselves?? How about a pregnant woman?? Would you drive a sword into her belly under the spell of, “God Said”???

Whether you or I like this or not, we must confess, this is why the World cannot agree upon who God is, because they all say “God Said” with their own idea, interpretation, or concept. The only way to come to a valid ideal about God is to turn away from voices that can’t be heard and learn from real life, real experience. If you have the chance, read my post on “Faith from McDonalds”.

I’ve been waiting for someone who claims this experience of hearing God’s Voice to play a recording, but no luck yet. I’m just told by the World of Religion, I HAVE to accept the Bible as that voice or I’ll burn in Hell. Why does this seem to relate to Galileo’s experience? Maybe they’re getting ready to arrest me!

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

NFS your asking questions about the authority of God and your never going to get a recording of God's voice because then what good would Faith be?We don't understand the whole plan of God and right now we only see dimly through a mirror but then face to face.
You seem angry at God,are you?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Very interesting. The question is; where IS God in all of this? :noidea

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Could it be that some people just made things up and said it was God talking, just like a lot of people do these days? And could it be that some of those stories were written down in books that, years later, people decided to call inspired and infallible?

Just askin'! :D

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

(BTW, some take "smite" in that scripture to mean "hit", not necessarily fatally. Even so, still a weird story, when you consider that punishment for disobeying.)

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Ok, killing innocent children, pregnant women, people in hospitals, the elderly, with a sword, is common sense? I suppose an abortion now and then is alright with you...:depressed

Did you know, Amalek was the grandson of Esau? This interesting connection brings family into the picture if the Amalekites came from his loins.

Also, the revenge of this act by Israel was revealed in German philosophy before Hitler's rein.

A prominent 19th and early 20th century rabbi, Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, claimed upon Kaiser Wilhelm's visit to Palestine in 1898, three decades before Hitler's rise to power, he had a tradition from his teachers that the Germans are descended from the ancient Amalekites.

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

We aren't living in the OT and aren't asked to kill someone.

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But you are willing to let someone else do it for you. If someone comes into your house to kill your wife and children would you just stand by smile.:foottap

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

NFS,

Here are some things for you to chew on:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rX3...age&q=&f=false

Is Yahweh a Moral Monster?: The New Atheists and Old Testament Ethics

http://www.epsociety.org/library/articles.asp?pid=45
and,

Yahweh Wars and the Canaanites: Divinely-Mandated Genocide or Corporate Capital Punishment?

http://epsociety.org/library/articles.asp?pid=63&ap=1

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

IMHO, the answer to this is an emphatic, YES!

But keep in mind, this doesn't make God any smaller, nor the Bible obsolete. My perspective of God has only changed for the better by approaching the Bible as a Book written by man, and with flaw. To know God understands me, is beyond relief. In the Apostolic Movement, we have hidden behind the Mask that we are the RIGHT ONES. This brings a spirit of doom upon us, because the fault of bringing God into our corner (He revolves around us), leads to the tragic end of FEAR and never being good enough. We also become so afraid to lose what we have, we produce MORE fear to keep it.

I'm a Pastor and understand this dynamic in how it manipulates the best of heart. When leadership is steeped in Tradition, surrounded by others of the same, FEAR to talk about our questions, concerns, and deepest worry is abated. Another day of misery is at hand, and the longer this goes on, the worse it gets. Our FEAR bleeds into the preaching, then into the Saints. We preach, praying and hoping we are right, while our insecurities grow, and fear chokes the life out of us. God forbid we would tell the conservative Pastor down the road about our questions! He would think less of me! Not understand me! He might TELL OTHERS I'm BACKSLID!! Then question the Bible...You may as well get the Cross out!

Inside we are dying, and I believe God is crying.................

To deny this, reveals only our fear to accept the Truth that error is in our midst, and that our Traditions supersede the FACTS. I'm attacked all the time on this forum by Pastors/Ministry, and fear is at the door, trying to win my heart. I've learned life beyond its talons, and now see people in a totally different light.

Others who are honest about being set free from the bondage of Traditional thought, find out, God doesn't revolve around the Earth (We/Religion/Mans Idea are the focus), but that the Earth revolves around God (He is the focus).

The more He becomes the Focus, the better our Planet will become, and we will reach into the heart of those who suffer, are broken, and confused by a million Faiths with answers that make sense.

I don't know completely why we have such a hard time with this. Even the Scripture revealed Jesus coming after Religion with intense rebuke, calling those who were the most well versed with the Torah, Whited Seplecurs, full of dead mans bones, blind guides, unmerciful, ect.

Yet, our modern age Religion takes us right back into this...Go figure. We swallow a camel and strain at a gnat.

My friend, God is SIMPLE!

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

What difference does it make? Killing is killing. This age old argument is an insult to God. Murder is murder. Adultery is adultery. Life is life. Genocide is genocide. A baby is a baby. A human being is a human being.

Your theory is the typical one. Out of sight, out of mind. As long as you didn't have to do it and not a part of your life, it's OK.

Bring Amalek to now and watch the outrage!!

Thou shalt not KILL..........

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

You avoided my response with clearly stated facts and questions....

Another Out of Sight, Out of Mind candidate.

Yes or no, would you KILL children, pregnant women, eldlerly people, if a prophet today told you to do so?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Consider this:
Amalek was a son of Esau.

When the nation of Isreal was coming out of Egypt, Amalek attacked them.
Balaam even prophesied the destruction of Amalek.

God gave them many years (450+) from the attack until Saul is made King, to repent and turn to Him.

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

NFS has a great point. No one believes God would command anyone today to do similar things as the ancient isrealites were commanded to do. What has changed about God that he no longer would command anyone to do these things?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Warfare has switched from physical to spiritual.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

lol, i love it when people try to give an answer off the top of their head about everything that's questionable...

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

This is typical slant with shallow theology. Please validate with experience. Use your current life to expound on your feelings about this issue, not history to conclude your deepest feelings.

You are placing the guilt of bloodshed upon those of the past, not willing to accept responsibility for this atrocious act.

Would you kill innocent children, pregnant women, or a helpless elderly person at the command of a prophet who claims he has heard from God, by the edge of the sword?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

:thumbsup I'm underwhelmed at your great wisdom. :ursofunny

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

lol I'm glad I make you laugh as much as you make me ;)

But really, you find no problem with a command coming from God for people to kill women and children? That's what is so astounding. Slant it any way you want, but the bible says God commanded this thing. You say God wouldn't command such a thing today, but how can you be sure? Isn't God capable of doing all things? Maybe his command would be to keep some great evil from happening today also? How can you honestly rule out such a command as coming from God today?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Ah the ole "shallow theology" card flies......now that is deep.:thumbsup You have read the New Testament and you can't see that physical violence gave way to Spiritual warfare even before the Death of Christ? Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

"Accept responsibility for this atrocious act"? "The guilt of bloodshed"? What guilt can there be when it was God's command? Oh wait you don't believe the that it was.

I'm sure if we had been there and were a part of the army, we both would have participated. You do understand that because Saul did not eliminate all the Amalekites, it brought about both his rejection from God and his physical death in battle?

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It's good to laugh with each other.

Not sure why folks always want to make things personal.......I was just giving a simple answer to a question.

Why would you think God would have Israel fight and kill it's enemies? Perhaps to keep the bloodline flowing that would produce the Messiah?
Once the Messiah came on the scene , He, Jesus, declared His kingdom was not a physical kingdom. No more need to protect the blood line or physical Kingdom once the King of Kings appeared.

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So there is no reason he would command people today to do such a thing?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

Ok, enlighten me with the answer you'd like to hear........:heeheehee

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lol, whether you honestly think it is possible for God to command that of someone in our time?

Re: Thou shalt murder?
 

As a matter of fact I can't find anything in the New Testament that would convience me that the Church should have a physical military arm. Having some understanding of the teachings of Jesus, I doubt there would be a command to His Church/Spiritual Kingdom to totally destroy a Nation physically, like He did in the Old Testament. The caveat being, God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants whether we agree with it or not.

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So since you leave the option for such a command open, would you take part if a prophet came and said God said to kill all the people of some nation?

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Have we forgotten Jim Jones & David Koresh? .....etc.

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I really don't see any indication or evidence in the New Testament God would do this.

How would you know it was a prophet from God?