Pastor Toney Visited
 

my church yesterday and preached the Sun service.

Bro Howell was there the Sunday before last.


In both sermons, there were elements of encouragement for us to "not change the doctrine."


In fact, Bro. Toney said something that really stands out in my mind: "you can't water down fire."


I understood exactly where he was going-- by preaching that the Holy Ghost infilling with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is NOT ESSENTIAL to one's salvation, then you will effectively put out the Fire of the Holy Spirit in a church.

This is what I understood him to be getting at.


I am torn. I couldn't be a part of a "dead" church-- I'd just as soon not go.


But how do I get around the the Ethiopian and the Philipian jailer's conversion experiences?


I don't want my belief system to be one that adds to the Bible, but I KNOW what I have experienced and what I have been taught and what I hear repeatedly-- from friends and family alike.



I used to get it, a long time ago-- now I don't.

I want to be able to embrace my Biblical faith and Biblical experiences with my mind and my heart.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

From the ESV

Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.


Mar 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Mar 16:17 "And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;


Mar 16:18 "they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."


Mar 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

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It accompanies or comes after for those who believe and are baptized into the church. Thats the key verse for me as a 2 1/2 stepper. :)

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

so when did you cast out your first demon?

did your salvation commence with you casting the demon out after you spoke in tongues?

This scripture does nothing to address the truths of the Ethiopian and jailer's salvation.





1 Co 1:22 -30 is another scripture that is "problematic" for the way I want to believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption....

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

I believe folks are fully saved at faith/repentence and baptism.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

So where is the impetus for folks to seek that Holy Ghost fire experience?

How would one keep that fire alive and burning bright in their lives individually and church collectively without the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues?

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Acts Chapter 16 (ESV)

31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.”
32 And they shared the word of the Lord with him and with all who lived in his household.
33 Even at that hour of the night, the jailer cared for them and washed their wounds. Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized.
34 He brought them into his house and set a meal before them, and he and his entire household rejoiced because they all believed in God.

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Acts Chapter 8:34-40 (ESV)

And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?”

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.

And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”

And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Shouldn't every Christian "wait" for that Holy Spirit babptism-- that same baptism that Jesus told His followers to go to Jerusalem to wait for?

If not, why not?

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Acts 19 (ESV)

Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland [fn] country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.

Act 19:2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."

Act 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."

Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in [fn] the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

--------------------------

Receiving the baptism of the Spirit is a empowerment to witness and do miracles after a person believes and that belief is turned into actions by burying their sins in baptism (where we are regenerated in baptism and are now under the New Covenant from the condemnation of the Old)

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

The answer to that is...........you cant.

That "fire" IS the Holy Ghost. Its the Comforter that Jesus promised us. Peter gave us the answer on how to be saved in Acts 2:38.

(Acts 2:37-38 KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

We have never taught that you had to speak in tongues to go to heaven, but that it is a gift for everyone. In the 2 weeks that I was gone to Brazil, we had 26 people get the Holy Ghost at our Jackson church! Four on Sunday morning in the Edge, seven on a Wed. night, and 15 in our youth conference. You don't lose the "fire" unless you just don't want the fire. Personally, I don't ever want to lose it!!

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Yes

Its a canard to say if you don't force feed it to everyone on their first visit to try to hit all 3 bases, before they are ready, people aren't going to seek the baptism of the Spirit when they are ready and informed.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

I don't think anyone should be seeking an experience.

Seek God.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Fortunately we don't have to judge the "Ethiopians" and the "Philippians" among us today.

You can still experience the fire your heart desires without cutting off the bonds of Christian fraternity you share with those who don't quite see it the same way. Worship with all your heart. Then encourage and receive encouragement from the "eunuchs" and the "jailers."

I'm not sure I know Bro. Toney nor which Bro. Howell you refer to - but I'm willing to bet they have sought and received a great deal of encouragement and instruction over the years from preachers and writers who don't share the same doctrine.

If it's no big deal to them, you shouldn't worry about it either. Just my humble opinoin.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

I don't, full salvation means justification, regeneration, sanctification, glorification. That is a process, for some it happens quickly, others over time.

What I do believe and I think scripture bears this out as one walks in faith that there is salvation/saved, but they may lack having their sins buried or washed away, or may lack new life by the Spirit.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Grab a jug of water and get alone on a mountain for a few days and seek God. :)

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

And after you have wallowed in your self focus, get down that mountain and do the work of the kingdom. Seek out the broken and downtrodden, and present the simplicity of the gospel to them, living out Philippians 4.8.(:-D)

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Oh wow!!! I can't wait for the day that I get to write that about SIWC!! We did have two baptisms on Sunday! How awesome what God is doing!!!!

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Apocyrpha you did not put in BOLD this part.......Mar 16:18 "they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover

It seems you tongues talkers will quote mark 16:16 all day long but skip over verse 18 lets see ya handle some snakes and drink some poison with those tongues then we will talk...

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Even Jesus rebuked Satan when he quoted the OT not to put God to the test, or essentially to force his hand in a situation. And Paul was bitten by a snake and he shrugged it off as im sure other Christians have done.

Besides, the extended ending of the book of Mark is a disputed verse.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

O so you beleive the bible is not the infalliable word of God?

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

No, I don't hold up to 100% infalliability. There are places where there are allegories, there are a few minor places where theres differences in manuscripts like the ending of Mark or Daniel, and there are places that have the opinions of man (like when Paul said it was his personal opinion).

I believe it contains the message of salvation and the minor issues of this or that doesn't affect the main points. If I hinged my salvation in the 100% of everything or 0% of nothing position that too many folks take I would have walked away a long time ago when I studied how the cannon was formed, why there are different sets of manuscripts (not major differences, but it still torpedos the fundamentalist position on it), or when NT authors made minor memory to paper mistakes in referencing OT prophecies or NT stories.

It doesn't shake my faith on how many angels were at the tomb, how Judas died, or any of the other minor easy to understand memory to story to manuscript issues that exist.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

God's word is completely infallible. To believe otherwise is heretical and apostacy.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

The holy one has a good point. If one admits that there are any mistakes in the Bible (whether by transcription errors, or mistranslations, or "edits", or misquotes of Jesus or of anyone else, or contradictions, or historical errors, or in the canon selection), one must wonder if one's important doctrines may be derived from mistakes. Mustn't one?

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

:spit Dude, dont do that to me. I knew I shouldnt be on AFF during lunch hour. *wiping off mouth, shirt ans computer screen*

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

The "infallibility Debate" is actually much more complex than that. To say otherwise would actually do harm to the the standing of the Bible as the Word of God.

For example Matthew 27:9, quotes a passage - or at least purports to quote a passage from "Jeremy (Jeremiah) the prophet..." Then, Matthew proceeds to quote from Zechariah 11:12-13.

Either Matthew fails the "Infallibility test" and is to be considered one of your "heretics and apostates," or there's something amiss with your understanding of the "Infallibility of the Scripture."

There are many important manuscripts which have added "in Isaiah the prophet" to Mark 1:2. The only problem I see with this is that Mark 1:2 is quoting Malachi.

The oldest manuscripts all leave out the ending of Mark 16. Only you new fangled types really insist upon retaining it. Erasmus could not find a single manuscript that included 1 John 5:7, until someone brought him a manuscript from the 11th century (1,000 years after John had died) with the "missing words" written in the column.

Several different manuscripts - D ((E) S 1006 1424marg with asterisks, possibly indicating a questionable passage) (L P omit 7:53-8:2 and place the rest in asterisks) Fvid G H K M U G 28 180 205 579 597 700 892 1009 1010 1071 (1077 1443 1445 http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/LectL.GIF184 http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/LectL.GIF211 http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/LectL.GIF387 http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/LectL.GIF514 http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/LectL.GIF751 http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/LectL.GIF773 http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/LectL.GIF890 http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/LectL.GIF1780 include 8:3-11 only) 1079 1195 1216 1243 1292 1342 1344 1365 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174 Byz aur c d e (ff2 omits 7:53) j r1 vg peshmss harkmss pal bopt slavmss-marg eth Ambrosiaster Ambrose Jerome [(UBS in [[ ]]) (Soden) (Vogels in [[ ] ]) Merk Bover (Souter in [ ]) Hodges-Farstad TR] -

... all include the story of the adultress after John 7:52 as you're accustomed to seeing it. Most, however place the story elsewhere in the Gospels or omit portions of the story.

James 2:20 - is "faith without works" - 1) "unproductive," 2) "dead" or 3)"empty?"

1. H PISTIS CWRIS ERGWN ARGH ESTIN -- "faith without works is unproductive" -- B C* 322 323 945 1175 1243 1739 am** cav colb dem div dubl ful harl hub sang tol val sa arm [UBS WH Tischendorf Soden Merk Bover Vogels NEB Souter]
2. H PISTIS CWRIS ERGWN NEKRA ESTIN -- "faith without works is dead" -- http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/Aleph.GIF A C** K L P Y 049 056 0142 33 81 88 104 436 614 629 630 1067 1241 1505 1611 1735 1852 2138 2298 2344 2412 2464 2492 2495 Byz p t am* pesh hark bo eth slav [Hodges-Farstad TR]
3. H PISTIS CWRIS ERGWN KENH ESTIN -- "faith without works is empty" -- P74 ff?

This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface. Of the tens of thousands of variant readings among the manuscripts - most don't really affect major doctrines all that much - but which of the tens of thousands are THE INFALLIBLE ones?

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Mouth hanging open in awe... Pel, when I grow up, I want to be as smart as you are...

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

It's just cut from some notes I have. There's no way anyone could possibly remember that.

There's a whoooooole lot more here: http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Flawless Victory. Once again you rocked the house :)

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

Oh great. Now I have to take it all back, you are NOT the smartest person I "know"... JK, you have obviously studied it out, so... you're still pretty smart! lol, thanks for sharing! :thumbsup

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

I agree with my friend, and it is a life time pursuit.

Re: Pator Toney Visited
 

I'm more of the librarian type. I know where the books go and where to go to get the data, but can't find my own car keys. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ons/icon11.gif