One Nation Under God
 

http://www.mcnaughtonart.com/artwork...rtpiece_id=353

Has anyone seen this?

You can move the cursor over the picture to see what each person symbolizes.

Re: On Nation Under God
 

Pretty good point being made. The Jesus image reminds me of Catholicism, but other than that - it's a nice piece of art.

Re: On Nation Under God
 

It's interesting to see what each person symbolizes to him. See if you can find satan in there.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Wow...that's incredible!

Re: On Nation Under God
 

Found him! I won't say where he is so that others get a chance.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Kind of sappy... sorry. And I object to the notion that the United States Constitution is "inspired of God." It's good, but not "inspired by God." In fact, it sort of goes out of the way to make no such claims for itself.

Also, why is the vitriolic critic and enemy of traditional Christian faith, Thomas Paine, called a "good man" who was "used by God" while the alleged college professor, clutching "the Origin of Species" is said to be trying to elevate himself to be equal with God? The Origin of Species, if anything, devalues any notion of "divinity" in human beings.

And if truth were a concern of the artist, we should see Thomas Jefferson pushing Jesus down the stairs because it was Jefferson's firm and outspoken belief that Jesus was not divine.

Forty years on, JFK is actually more famous for his dalliance with Marilyn Monroe in the White House, right under Jackie's nose than he is for his inaugural speech.

Benjamin Franklin should have the "Christian minister" between him and Jesus. In his thousands of letters that we have have preserved, Franklin never once even mentions Jesus Christ in passing. The two apparently had never met.

Nathan Hale was a great patriot, however he was justifiably executed by the British because he had violated the Laws of War and, as a soldier - a fighting combatant, had deliberately disguised himself and attempted to hide among the civilian population while carrying out an act of war against the British. In other words, he sort of did the same thing the Taliban do, only with a more noble goal in mind.

George Washington: the "Father of Our Country" was a deist and a philosophically committed Mason. He is famously said to have knelt in prayer at Valley Forge. The only problem is that the individuals that are said to have "witnessed" this either have denied it or are completely silent about it. No serious American historian has been able to attribute any religious faith to Washington other than his transcendental deism and his several secular announcements proclaiming a day or a time of "Thanksgiving to our Maker" - the impersonal deist god.

Abraham Lincoln - the "Great Emancipator." The only slaves he actually freed were those held behind Southern lines. These were slaves that he had no real power to free. He specifically forbade the release from slavery of all slaves in Union held territories. The Emancipation Proclamation was only a bit a window dressing designed for European consumption. It had no real effect in the United States.

Sequoya and the "Indian Nation?" As most "Indians" and historians will tell you, there were over 500 hundred "Indian Nations." Sequoya was a Cherokee. After siding with the "Whites" (really just the S.C. militia) in a war against other Indian tribes, the Cherokees briefly enjoyed a sort of favored status. In 1831, Sequoya and the rest of the Cherokee Nation were repaid for their loyalty by being forced from their homes and marched at the point of a bayonet to resettle in Oklahoma. Sequoya died in poverty. Sixty years later almost all of "Indian Territory" was removed from Indian control and given away for just the price of a claim fee to "whites."

John Hancock and John Adams are perhaps almost unique among the "Founding Fathers" in that they believed that God just might answer prayer. The vast majority of the rest were children of the enlightenment and concurred with Thomas Paine's words:

"It is the fable of Jesus Christ, as told in the New Testament, and the wild and visionary doctrine raised thereon, against which I contend. The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene..."

The words of a "good man" as he was being "used by God?"

But I know, I know. It's just make believe. Why can't we all just agree to pretend?

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Well, Pel you really got into that - lol!

Re: One Nation Under God
 

more like one nation under gods
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/rotunda/ap...s/Overview.cfm

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Thanks Pel, saved me a lot of typing. christian nation my foot...

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Most of the forefathers did pray to The God Almighty and seek His guidance, and for that I am thankful.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

I have mixed feelings about the concept of the United States being a Christian nation.

A lot of the founders and early settlers were a mixture of believers and others who acknowledged the importance of Judeo-Christian ethics and morality and some who just gave lip service to that concept.

Can we say we are a Christian nation when we are built upon genocide and ethnic cleansing?

I'm probably the only person here who wanted to jump up and "boo" at the end of the movies where you heard the bugle sounding a charge and the cavalry came over the hill.

I'm probably the only one here that is glad that General Custer received a gift of an arrow shirt (old Indian joke from an old Indian) in June 1876 near the Little Bighorn River.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

where is satan? I couldn't find him, unless you are referring to the "liberal" reporter.

btw, where is Clinton, Carter or Obama?

Re: One Nation Under God
 

While I agree with most of what you said in the post I chopped up I take issue with two points. One minor the other not so much.

Franklin did in fact reference Jesus Christ, though perhaps not in the light most would like...


As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire,

• I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes,
• and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity;
• though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.
• I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed;
• especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.

Benj. Franklin, Letter to Ezra Stiles, 9 March 1790

http://www.questioningchristian.com/...in_frankl.html


As to Washington I am curious as to why the view you presented would be attributed to a man who wrote...

...I beseech thee, my sins, remove them from thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into thy temple, and compass thine altar, my prayers may come before thee as incense; and as thou wouldst hear me calling upon thee in my prayers, so give me grace to hear thee calling on me in thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of the soul in the day of the Lord Jesus.

http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/george.html

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Good questions: First of all, the alleged "prayer journal" for General Washington is spurious. He did not write those words. They were composed, fabricated out of whole cloth (I believe) in or around 1919 or 1920. This is when the "prayer at Valley Forge" mythos was promulgated.

http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge...on/prayer.html

sorry... gotta run, I'll catch up after visiting the doc. My wife wanted to be there for this one so it'll look bad if I'm late. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ons/icon10.gif

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Concerning my remarks about George Washington... In the remarks that we know are authentic and actually came from the hand of the Father of Our Country, we do not find him addressing God in direct and personal terms as he is purported to have done in the "Prayer Journal" that was published in 1919. Consider his Inaugural Address:

“…[I]t would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official Act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the Universe, who presides in the Councils of Nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States, a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes: and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge.”

Washington's First Inaugural Address is one of the most important documents related to the founding of our nation. It's up there with the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Federalist Papers.

Look at how Washington addresses God - this reveals a great deal of his own theology. God is not "Our Father which art in heaven..." Instead, God is "that Almighty Being..."

For whatever reason, Washington throws in a reference to the divine council of the gods (Councils of Nations), but despite their alleged abilities to influence the course of human national affairs, Washington attributes all of the hard work at nation building to "The People of the United States." And notice; "The People of the United States" are given an equal billing with that impersonal deistic God, "the Almighty Being."

Frank Grizzard, a senior editor of the George Washington Papers collection at the University of Virginia has had to almost devote his career to debunking the George Washington Prayer Journal myth. There is no "Prayer Journal" as your source cited in any of the collections of Washington's letters.

Tim LaHaye - he of "left Behind" wealth, claims to have hired handwriting experts who "authenticated" the hand written "Prayer Journal." However, the FBI was called in to examine the document and they pronounced it a forgery. It was first "discovered" in 1891 and then took on legs of its own after its 1919 publication.

With regard to Benjamin Franklin, there are many myths related to his "Christian faith" as well.

These men were deists. They believed in the so-called "Watchmaker" God. An "Almighty Being" Who created the universe but Who is so transcendent and remote that He doesn't really interact in our affairs in any real personal way. That's why, when it came time to win their freedom and to create a new nation, "The People of the United States" were called upon to act, to fight and to forge a new nation.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

George Washington in a speech to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Then of coarse the Treaty of Tripoli Article 11 1797


Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Good call, there John.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

In passing I think George Washington was a great man, one of the greatest... I don't think he was a Christian, even by cultural standards.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

What cracks me up almost daily is our two political parties who have secured total dominance over American politics. Republicans, who have little interest in the republic, and Democrats who have no use for democracy.

One nice fact about George Washington... He hated political parties. He felt that if they emerged here they would destroy the constitutional republic he helped found.

They have.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

I think the problem is that someone got the bright idea that they could get relected if they just put bandaids on everything and appeared to be helping people instead of actually trying to fix the problem of why so many people needed band-aids in the first place. And now the only way to be elected is if you promise to use bandaids even though they do nothing.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Case in point, Louisiana's Mary Landrieu's recent theft of $300 million from the Federal treasury.

Extortion, really, more than theft. She got that just for going along with the cloture vote. That's 27 times more than the original Louisiana Territory cost.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

mmmhm. the body of the republic lies quivering on the side walk and some socialist slaps a bandaid on while reassuring the public..."it's alright"

Re: One Nation Under God
 

I have no problem with socialist stuff, not sure where I would draw the line on whats to much though. But I think that socialist spending needs to come only after we are prosperous and can really afford the programs. I think that has been the one great flaw with the socialist agenda. It seems to try to help before it really has the means to do so.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

I believe your assessment is too simplistic. To simply call them deists, ignores the fact that they made references to a God who does interact in the affairs of man. I think the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist. There was certainly a wide range of beliefs among the founders. George Washington's Granddaughter which he raised (though technically it was his wife's granddaughter) said that she had no doubts as to his Christian faith. Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise.

Many at this time, including Franklin and Jefferson, doubted or denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. It would be impossible to place these men in the Christian camp. Franklin was some sort of theist, as were most of the more influential founders. Many of those who would be considered Christian were more of the unitarian sort than otherwise.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Interestingly Franklin was the one who called for prayer when there was dissension in the Constitutional Convention in 1787, and it was shortly after this that they came up with the constitution.

Actually there were 3 deists out of the 55 delegates that attended the Constitutional Convention. A deist believes in an absentee God and in not an atheist. The rest were of the Christian Faith. Many were from Seminaries.

Jefferson established church services at the capital building and attended faithfully even in harsh weather when he was in office.

George Washington's life speaks for itself of his character and walk with God. Have you read his farewell Address, probably not it was banned from being read in schools for many years due to it's christian references.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Thomas Paine was perhaps the closest thing to an atheist out of that group - though many called him deeply spiritual - just very anti-religious.

The best witness we have of George Washington's beliefs are his own writings. When they mention God, they clearly describe a deistic God. The spurious addition of a forged "Prayer Journal" is good evidence that even those who wanted Washington to be more orthodox found his extent writings wanting on this account.

And Jefferson was close to Washington. He knew Washington personally and had been with him through many ordeals. To invent the "Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise" sentence is a slip on your part that we don't need to spend much time with.

The either/or option that you want to split - "the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist" - seems to ignore the point of what these men actually did believe. They were not evangelicals. They were not atheists - not even Tom Paine. They (the vast majority of the founders) were Deists. Deism is a specific philosophy.

With the exception of really just a handful of men, John Adams the most prominent among them, the founders were deists. Washington seems to go to pains to point this out in his inaugural address. The "Almighty Being" is not invoked to render aid or assistance against the enemy. Any goodness that is received by the people is the fruit of "Providence."

"The Almighty Being" is the one who bestows His benediction upon the labors of the people; not the one who labors on behalf of the people.

Re: One Nation Under God
 

That's a common myth among revisionists. What Franklin did was to read a motion requesting the appointment of a chaplain - it wasn't even his motion, he just read it. That motion was tabled and pushed aside. The quarreling continued until several compromises were made - including the infamous 3/5 of a person compromise in the counting of African-Americans. And then we had a Constitution.

http://candst.tripod.com/franklin.htm gives a pretty good run down on this.
Actually five come to mind immediately. In several states confessed deists were not allowed to hold office. And, most deists of the time considered themselves to be Christians - and not only that, they considered themselves to be better Christians that the other rabble. Look at Tom Paine.

Hamilton too, for example made jokes about God during the Constitutional Convention itself. He seems to have found religion on two occasions: 1) When he was running for President against the known skeptic Thomas Jefferson, and 2) After his extra-marital affair became public and he promised to found a Christian Constitutional Society to rebuild his tarnished reputation.

The level of Christian faith at this time can actually be measured by the three largest commodities of trade: Gin, tobacco and slaves.

I hope that you're not about to try and make a case that Jefferson was a "devout" Christian believer...
He also ripped two thirds of the pages from your New Testament because he didn't believe Jesus Christ could have possibly been "divine" in any sense of the word.
:spit
No it wasn't. You made that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_...rewell_Address

hmm... Doesn't appear to be hardly any Christian content whatsoever!

2 Summary of address

• 2.1 Washington's Impending Retirement From Public Life
• 2.2 The Importance of Unity, and The Danger of Sectionalism
• 2.3 The Authority of the Constitution, the Threat of Political Factions, and the Danger of Constitutional Amendments Designed to Weaken the Government
• 2.4 The Dangers of Political Parties
• 2.5 The Importance of the Constitution's System of Checks and Balances, Separation of Powers, and Constitutional Amendments
• 2.6 Religion, Morality, and Education
• 2.7 The Importance of Credit, and the Sparing Use of Government Borrowing
• 2.8 Foreign Relations, the Dangers of Permanent Foreign Alliances, and Free Trade
• 2.9 Washington's Intentions in Writing This Letter
• 2.10 Defense of the Proclamation of Neutrality
• 2.11 Closing Thoughts

Washington was a swell guy. They all were, even the slave holders. But not one of them would find a welcome in any of the churches represented on AFF, except maybe NOW's. But they'd have to loosen up a bit first. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif

Re: One Nation Under God
 

Oh but we do need to spend some time there. Because about this you are wrong. I didn't slip nor invent. these are the words of Jefferson on the subject.

Dr. Rush tells me that he had it from Asa Green that when the clergy addressed Genl. Washington on his departure from the govmt, it was observed in their consultation that he had never on any occasion said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Xn religion and they tho[ugh]t they should so pen their address as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However he observed the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice.

[...]

I know that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system than he himself did.

http://www.positiveliberty.com/2009/...en-affair.html

The founders were a variety of things including deist, christian, and more common during this age of enlightenment a curious cross between the major tenants of Christianity and deism. Most did not fall strictly into the deistic category because they viewed God as working in the affairs of men, though probably not as a personal saviour since some clearly rejected the view that Jesus was God in any sense.

I am not arguing that the founders were Christians in the modern sense at all, I do not accept that view. However those who wish to claim a completely atheistic worldview have skewed the views of the founders as well.

There are revisionists on both sides that is why I said the truth is in the middle.