Better pay up....LOL
 

Megachurch Pastor Rick Warren Asks for Urgent Donations

LAKE FOREST, California — Evangelical pastor Rick Warren appealed to parishioners at his California megachurch Wednesday to help fill a $900,000 deficit by the first of the year

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

You gotta love the Church.....I don't think God ever wanted any of the churches to be 900,000 in the hole.....

Re: Better pay up....LOL
 

We have the same kind of meetings at our church--on a much smaller scale of course. It takes money to maintain a large assembly--and the congregation should share that expense. (All things in common, remember?) If you want the perks of attending a mega church, then don't complain about the cost.

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I don't want to come across as being cold hearted here, but I don't have a lot of compassion for these kinds of pleas.

We've been through very tough times here building our Church. I'm the pastor, and one year we had a huge drop in attendance. I had quit my secular job right before all this happened. The bottom fell out financially. So guess what; I had to go get a JOB!!! :eek:

We cut back, we made changes, and we did everything possible to keep the ship afloat, EXCEPT, beg for more money.

I'm still working today, running my own Insurance Agency and will do this most likely until I retire. In fact, my wife and I enjoy doing secular work (she works at the office), and I think this helps the Church to know we will take care of ourselves in the event times get tough again.

Rick Warren has a best selling book(s), a HUGE congregation, and a BIG budget. Stop begging, and start WORKING! People have a hard enough time making ends meat, and the last thing they need is another guilt trip.

JMO :newyear

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Wah wah!

I have to agree with you on this, it is not God's will for them to run a 900,000.00 deficit. Bad money management!

I think we are seeing the end of the cycle of the "purpose drivel works"

:D

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Ah, but there is a purpose in a driven life... the purpose is paying off that deficit!

I agree. Budget correctly and plan ahead-if things start to go under, don't wait til you're almost a million in the hole! (Oh, wait, or $10 trillion, either...)

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Doesn't his church support a lot of missions and do alot of other things that cost real money?

I think maybe he could put some of his own money into the pot to balance thinigs out for the church.

I don't think his church just exists, doing nothing to affect the world around us so I am not offended by his asking.


When you think about it, it had to be a very humbling experience for the man.

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Hmmm.....I don't see this as begging. Saddleback has made significant cutbacks and they're still short. I see it as asking the congregation to help with the shortfall. Rick Warren takes no salary from the church and donates 90% of his income. He also totaled up everything he'd ever been paid by Saddleback and gave it back. They make a monumental impact in thousands of lives and I think the 900k request is a bargain. I'm going to send them $100. Their request for 900k is going out to a membership of over 40,000 so proportionately, it's not that much.

I've been to their services and they make no issue of the offering, contrary to the true begging I've seen very frequently in churches.

So I have no problem at all with their request.

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I did not know he takes no salary from his church!

WOW!!!

I didn't know that he donates 90% of his income!!!


Maybe he shouldn't donate so much of his income so that he can help his church out when necessary.


Hopefully the members of his congregation who are able, hopefully they will step up with some cash quickly to help keep the vision alive.

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Thanks for the update on Mr Warren. Did not know this.

I do know one thing for certain, though. The money issue with Big Religion is a sore subject with a great majority of people in America (Not too sure about other Countries). Mega Churches that relish in lavish Cathedrals, total state of the art technology, and a payroll that may compete with large corporations, leaves many in a quandry over why they need more.

My personal experience is, our Organization is constantly begging for more money. I say begging, because that's about the only time I get a call, and this is no exageration. 14 years pastoring and the emails, regular mail, and personal phone calls are enough to make one sick. I get hammered with one offering after the next.

It's gotten to the point that I've finally cornered the brethren who call me and ask them, "Is this the only time you call me? Asking for money?"

So maybe this is why I have a chip on my shoulder. Sorry if I come across that way. After 30 years of seeing Pastors get a special plaque and a pat on the back, getting their Churches to the top of the list because of how much they gave, while the Bible clearly states that giving is a secret experience, makes me tired of these pleas.

Things get tight, and bills pile up. Welcome to the Family!! Join the people who have lost their jobs and their homes. I've got people in our Church who came from from other churches where all they did was fund raisers. Every service they were selling something, and the asking never ceased. Begging is what it became, and these folks got completely burned out. I also came from a Church were the Fund Raisers became a constant nag on people, and some left the Church because of it.

I was on the verge of bankruptcy 5 years ago. I almost lost everything. But I refused to put that burden on people who have a hard enough time getting by. Through my difficulty, I have learned much about prayer, myself, and that God loves me even if I have nothing.

What about all the people in Church who give because of the guilt trip we lay on them? What about the $119,700,000 his books have brought in (Warrens income on his books)?

Sorry Bro, but I just can't grasp the need. Keep your $100.00.

Good film we just watched; Luther. Great film that deals with this subject.

Happy New Year!! Thanks for the Christmas Card! Blessings to your family.

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Really... it's kind of hard to slam Warren considering the way we've all been running our country for the last 80 years.

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You're welcome and blessings to you and yours!! By the way, when I first went to Saddleback, there was one lavish building. It was obvious they had put a lot into it. I walked in, assuming it was the sanctuary, and.....it was the children's building. It was much nicer than the Sanctuary. That really made an impression on me.

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Can't say I feel any different here! This is exactly the way I felt as well before my exodus. It does get old when you seem to be only a source of offerings. :D

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Slamming Bro Warren for malking a need known to his congrgation.

TSK TSK TSK Have ye never been to our General Conference and endured a three to four hour offering plea.

Or to one of camp meetings where people are asked to stand and give a hundred to pay fo rthew camp.....and then after counting the offering, the minister comes back with, 'we didn't get enough" and go on for anther half hour to get more money?

We do no take offerings in our church. We probably don't even mention more than 10 times a year, that there are offering boxes on the back wall by the exit doors, for our members to contribute in.

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That sure makes a person feel bad when they are only remembered at offering time...

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It's incredible what happens when we allow the Holy Spirit to do what we claim He can do. We put boxes on the back wall and cancelled the offerings (we'd never heard of anyone doing it but felt it was the right thing to do, and we were not in good financial condition) and our offerings doubled in four months.

Although Saddleback passes the place, there was zero mention of it except to say, "Guests, please don't feel obligated to contribute". There was zero pressure. One of the foundational building blocks of Saddleback and Willow Creek (started at about the same time using identical principles), is, zero money pressure.

Rick Warren was informing the church of a need and I think he did it in an ethical and classy way.

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Maybe they should charge more for their double mocha lattes :statbike:

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I go to a small church. It is in the inner city of Hamilton, Ohio and ministers to inner city people. It is not a wealthy church and
we feed over 100 kids dinner on Wednesday before Kid's Church
we provide breakfast on Sunday mornings
we give away coats in the fall
we give away backpacks with school supplies in the fall
we give away groceries and clothes as they are available
we give Christmas gifts to needy families

We do not get money from the folks we feed and give stuff to. We do have some members but none of us is very affluent. Tithing is preached on occasion but is not taught as salvational and the pastor does not personally know who gives what so we are not treated by the pastor based on how much we give or don't give.

There is mention from the pulpit when it is time to give away coats or backbacks or Christmas gifts or Thanksgiving meals and people are encouraged to give for those needs.

A while back we had to repair one of our buses and it was anticipated that a replacement part would be needed and we were asked to give enough to cover that cost. Later, when the part did not need to be replaced the pastor told the congregation that the repair did not cost as much as anticipated and offered to return money to anyone who had given. I don't know if anyone took him up on it. I didn't.

A couple months ago as we neared the end of the month we did not have enough to meet all the expenses and we were told about it and asked to give a little more. The money came in and the needs were met.

We have taken up money (special offerings) for people out of work or with different needs.

I know things like this would turn some people off but I just think it is the leadership of the church being open and honest about financial affairs.

Our pastor does not live lavishly and his wife works full time to supplement their income.

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Because of the way Rick Warren pastors his church and the relatively modest lifestyle he apparently exemplifies, I would say bringing a need before his very LARGE congregation is perfectly acceptable.

$900,000.00 divvies up to be $22.50 per member. I see nothing at ALL to complain about with his request.

What do his critics expect? For him to cover the cost alone?

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And I think that's just it.....he could easily cover the cost himself. But is that what God would want? Or would He desire that all join in and cover the shortage? I'm sure a large part of the budget has already been covered by him.

So considering Warren's wealth.....let's suppose a church has a yearly budget of 20 million. And let's suppose the pastor personally brings in 30 million. Does that mean he covers everything and no money is ever received and no one gives?

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Personally, I don't think so. As a member of a congregation, I take personal responsibility for the expenses of meeting on a regular basis, and I don't believe the Bible shows that a pastor (or other leader) has a greater obligation than a saint in that regard.

Plus, I grew up in a pastor's home, and more than once my Dad has emptied our bank account so he could pay church bills, because people would get angry if he asked for more money. When I was about 10 years old, my parents sold our house to help pay for a new building. That is not the way it should work, and saints who feel it's the pastor's job to pay all the bills should be ashamed of themselves. :foottap

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Your point is a good one. Split up the load and the burden is shared.

But, this is where I see a problem. The Government does the same thing. If every American would pay a certain amount, our deficit could be eliminated. Taxes grow, bailing out the Big guy, as our Country goes on spending instead of learning to do what we all have to do when money is tight; cut back or liquidate.

This is what has brought our Country to it's knees. We keep spending when there is no money.

This is the danger of turning the Church into a huge money making machine, where the Head becomes more important than the body, and the focus is keeping the Head afloat. People become numbers. Churches become the next offering. The hand loses focus on the foot. The cost to run the "Machine" becomes astronomical, setting itself up for one thing; The need for more money, even if there is no money, while the Churches below are lost by impersonal, and constant demand.

My personal opinion is, Mega Churches seem to conflict with a healthy spiritual focus, leaving people lost in the masses. I find a parallel with the "Wal Mart" mindset. The Big guy dominates and crushes all below below him.

I wonder if Mr Warren has ever considered how many small churches his Big Church has destroyed. How about the finances of all the Pastors around him who lost people who once supported those small works? Did Pastors do what your father did, doing what he could to pay the bills?

A few years back my wife and I visited a small Church in the Stockton area. We saw the church was struggling, as the numbers were few. With a good spirit, the pastor shared with me that he had a difficult time competing with the Mega Churches close by.

What I find interesting, is people defend Rick Warren but don't know him. He is a celebrity and a dominate political figure and author, but he's at arms distance from most. I don't know why men continue building these empires, thinking bigger is better, when the example Jesus left us was the complete opposite.

Jesus seemed to avoid the Temple, finding his pulpit on a fishing bank or in a field, then going into mountains to pray.

You know, I've asked myself this question; where did we get our Church model from? We sure didn't get it from the Bible.

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I agree with that. No pulpit in the bible, no sermons following the choir, no choir, no worship teams, etc. But we have adapted to the culture and used the tools we have the best way we can.

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Great statistics and points. The problem with a lot of statistics is we may be misinformed by believing some of them. Personal experience and what we see ourselves should validate if the numbers are true.

I do stay in touch with ministers from other areas of our Country, and most tell me, Church attendance is stagnant or has dropped. I also read a recent article that said people in America are going to Church less, not more. I really would like to know the truth about this, as what I've seen seems to be that Church growth is down. Sometimes we are guilty of fake optimism, which just happened with our economic crash.

I guess also, it's very difficult to gauge where people are spiritually. I think we see the true colors of folks when they suffer. In my getting to know you, I'm sure you understand my point. I know you've been through much, and this says a lot about who you are. In fact, trials are what make us.

We have prayed and tried to draw people from larger churches to this very difficult area to help us. We pioneered this church from the ground up, and the pain is beyond words. Getting people to consider coming here is always weighed out with, "How big is your Church? Is there a good job waiting for me? Do you have music?"

Brother, for the last 12 years my phone has rang with people inquiring about attending our services, and 90% of the time it goes like this; "Hi, what time is Church? Do you have Sunday School or programs for kids? How many people do you have?" Like I said, this is experience talking, not statistics. When people find out we are small, they lose interest because we don't have what the Big Church down the road has.

Getting a church off the ground is pure sacrifice, and people know this, and they don't want to suffer. I wasn't privaledged to be the daughter work of a Mega Church. Virtually no outside financial support was given to us. IMO, people are running from the pain of hard work and commitment, and when times get tough, they leave. I can't tell you how broken I was 8 years ago, when my assistant and piano player walked out on me. He didn't even want to face me, dropping off the key at my house when I was at work. Suddenly, we were with no music, and my right hand man left because his wife missed her family 2000 miles away.

I practically crawled to the pulpit to face our congregation, with no music and no assistant. I balled my eyes out and begged God for help, and no one came. Soon, the people became discouraged, and I don't blame them. People began to leave, and my 4 years of building, praying, and preaching my heart out almost seemed in vain. I told my wife, let’s get out of here. There is a very large church just down the road, and some sought comfort there.

This is really the way of our Country. We see this first hand in Marriage. Divorce is just as high in the Church as outside the Church. When the going gets tough, people are bailing. We are an entertained society, and people are drawn to the emotion and the show of Religion, and Mega Churches offer this. They have the programs, the Youth groups, music, and yes, MONEY. They can help people, where we can't, feeding the welfare mentality in America.

If what you're saying is true, about the Mega Churches drawing the Un-Churched, what depth are they developing? Will they suffer? Will they go and share a burden that will test every fiber of their being? Or, will the loss of music, programs, and constant fellowship and diverse preaching be too much to leave behind?

Brother, it’s real easy to say, "I do!"

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You're right and I should have been more specific. Not every mega-church is bringing in the unchurched. Lakewood has emptied out a lot of churches and several churches in Atlanta have done a total "Wal-mart" on the smaller churches.

I was speaking of a certain "brand" of mega-church, and Saddleback is one of the two "Godfathers" of that "brand" of church. I'm speaking of the so-called "Seeker" church. Willow, Saddleback, Northpoint, Newspring, Elevation, Gateway, Mosaic.....are those churches who have been extremely efficient in bringing in the "unchurched." Like I said, Rick Warren went to the area he's in as the result of discovering they had the worst church attendance ratio in North America. He was directly going after the unchurched. It's the core of the "seeker" movement. Erwin McManus very directly says, "Our church is not for Christians."

And you're correct....attendance overall is down, as well as those who believe in Christ. Christ-faith has dropped one percent per year for the last 19 straight years, in North America. Some studies have shown that only around 5% of American teens profess Christ, and of the Christians who enter college, 75% walk away from their faith. So yeah, very bleak numbers. But there is a "movement" that has bucked the trend.

Concerning your personal situation....I'd love to talk sometime. We're pioneering, of sorts, our church as well. I'd love to point you in some directions of great resources...people that will help selflessly.

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Calif. pastor takes in $2.4M after donations plea
Associated Press - 10 minutes ago
celebs:
Barack Obama
Eve
LAKE FOREST, Calif. - Evangelical pastor Rick Warren says his call for donations to fill a $900,000 deficit at his Southern California megachurch has brought in $2.4 million.

Warren announced the sum to cheers at a Saturday service, and said the total includes only money brought in person to Saddleback Church by New Year's Eve.

Warren called the donations "amazing" and says the church will start the new decade with a surplus.

Warren made an appeal to members on the church's Web site Wednesday, asking for donations to overcome a collections shortage.

Warren delivered the invocation at the inauguration of President Barack Obama and is the author of numerous books, including the best-selling "The Purpose Driven Life." He founded Saddleback Church in 1980 in Lake Forest, about 65 miles southeast of Los Angeles.

___

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Good discussion between NOW and NOS, good points made by both. Overall, I'd have to side with NOS, because despite the fact that these mega churches are supposed to be "Reaching" the un-churched, the result seems to truly be Christianity without the cross.

I work with people who go to the local megas, have family memebrs who attend some. To me it is quite a perk, you can go to a big church, and be a Christian without repentance. Hey, if I want to continue to live my own way, but be caled a Christian, sign me up for that one. And, guess what, they sign up in droves. But are they being concerted, are they being born again, are their lives bearing the fruit of the Spirit, as a majority, no.

It is this type of "grace" Paul writes against in Romans 6:1-2.


PS-I lost alot of respect when Warren flip flopped on homosexuality last year during (or right after) the elections.

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Aaaaack!!! Jason, you know I love you, but this makes me crazy!! How can you say that? Let me ask you this.....go head and be negative with your answer, but of Saddleback's 40,000 members, what percentage would you have "True Christianity with the cross"?


And when did Warren flip-flop on homosexuality? He outwardly supported Prop 8 (in which I was disappointed) and he never changed that stance.

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Jason, you're right. People that attend larger Churches are less accountable, which in turn breeds a weaker commitment. I've attended large and small churches, and the smaller congregations are much closer and connected because they have to be. When fellowship is limited, so are your options if you get offended or struggle.

We have a woman who has been attending our Church for a few years now. She came from the bigger city, and a Church that offered more fellowship, music options, and a constant flow of visiting speakers. When she first came here, she did nothing but complain and her shallow spiritual perception was staggering.

When she found out she would have to stand on her own 2 feet, and carry a load she never carried before, she about fell apart.

But now, I've watched as she has slowly transformed into being more of a blessing in helping others instead of being such a taker.

As far as Mr. Warren going to the most unchurched populace in America, he's never been to the Pacific Northwest. This area is known for being the hardest place in the Country to build a Church. On the other hand, Los Angeles, California, is a far cry from being unchurched. I was saved in Southern California when I was in the Marines, and Churches of great size and numbers are there, and don’t even compare to the Northwest.

In the North, we deal with harsh and dark winters, and depression is rampant. Alcoholism, suicide, and many other deep problems plague this area for several months out of the year. LA, on the other hand, has one of the most temperate climates on earth, with little rain, and mellow winters.

Go ahead and Google Mega Churches in Washington State and then California. Out of 100 Mega Churches in the United States, 19 are in Southern California and Rick Warren's church has over 20,000 attendees. 14 of the fastest growing Churches are in California, and 10 of those are in Southern California.

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Well, our population in California is much larger so it makes sense that we would have more large churches. But Rick Warren and Saddleback is not in Los Angeles. It's in the Lake Forest area, quite a bit south of LA, which had been a very "unchurched" area 30 years ago, and still is a pretty tough place to grow a church.

While it could be true that some "mega-churches" are impersonal, many are very closely knit through small groups. Willow and Northpoint have, very much, a small-church feel to them.

But I just wonder, when does a church get too big? At what number do we tell the next person they can't come? When do we tell people to stop inviting new people?

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How can I say that? About Saddleback, I can't. About the megas down here in Texas, I can through experience, both my own (before I was actually saved, I went to megas with my mom) and others I know. I don't have statistics, but of the people I have know who attend such churches, they are definitely weak/immature in faith, or not converted at all.

I don't say ALL who attend, but I believe it is safe to say a majority.

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There's no way we could know for sure, I understand that. I'm just asking for a wild guess. But let's be really, really negative and say that only 5% of Saddleback's crowd is really saved. Would you agree that's really negative? Yikes!! Imagine only 5% of our audience being the "real deal."

Well, with Saddleback, that would mean that TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE are saved, and the real deal, which still is a huge number!

Yes, many people who attend Saddleback or Willow are not "true-blue" and there out of convenience, and not yet really dedicated......which I say is FANTASTIC!!! Just imagine having a huge audience each week of people who are prospective Christ-Followers! Let it be, Lord!!

Many churches would be thrilled with 20 visitors in one year. I would happily speak to thousands of uncommitted people each week. This is highly preferable to speaking to the same ole people every week who are advanced about as far as they're ever gonna go.

I would very happily take the Saddleback-type crowd...in fact, that's exactly what we now have, just 39,700 short! :)

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They made it! I read the donations were at 2.4 million and counting! Wowzers!!!!!

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NOW, I love your point of view, and you know we are largely like minded. But my issue is with churches who give these non-dedicated church attending people the impression that they ARE born again.

I'd love for 200 or 300 uncomitted, curious, agnogstic folks to be in ou services each week, but wouldn't tell them theyre going to heaven as they are.