Rick Warren Statement
 

"The church that is content with not growing is saying to the rest of the world “ 'You can go to hell.' ” –Rick Warren






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Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

We should be concerned about growing in a local church situation,but what we should desire is for lost humanity to find Justification,not just to have numbers for numbers sake.The preaching of the cross should bring people in not seeker sensitive programs and such.We need the manifest presence of God to be in our services,so the Holy Spirit can do it's convicting work.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Well said!! If the body of Christ is about His work in the earth, loving and caring, He will add to the body daily!!!

Setting in the four walls, doing our programs, rather than being in the field serving, is not what the body is called to do.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

The presence of God in our services (and no, we don't have enough of it) will bring people in.

Good post, Bro. Scott.

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Churches can have numbers,but you just have numbers and not true Christians what do you have ? A big social club or something.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Oh baloney. Let's ask a question here.....of the 40,000 members of Saddleback (the church Rick Warren founded and pastors), what's your wild guess of the percentage of "True Christians" among the 40,000. Just give a wild guess. Don't do the "I could never judge" malarkey, because you've pretty much already done that by insinuating many in his crowd may not be "true Christians." So go ahead...what percentage? Just guess.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

I'm not attacking anybody but hey churches can have numbers and not have Christians,there are plenty of people who have their name on membership roles of churches who are not Christians.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

BTW I never said anything about Saddleback I am making statements in general,so look who is reading things into something I did not say.
In premise I agree with The Rick Warren statement.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Can you cite any church that is an example of that?

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

I understood what you meant Bro Scott....and, sorry NOW, but it's NOT baloney! Too many churches are just that.......social clubs, with just a hint of Jesus thrown in for good measure so they can call it church. Sad!

Yeah, alot of churches are 'growing' or as I heard one preacher say........"swelling", from infection and disease. That type of growth is certainly not good.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

I see if I say anything here on this thread,it will be used agains't me and I will be labeled as harsh and judgemental,or that I'm agains't everybody so I will refrain.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Ok, so give me an example of a church that fits the description you gave.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Thank for trying to understand what I'm trying to convey,I'm not trying to condemn or lamblast.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

But the cat's already out of the bag. The horse is out of the barn. The train has left the station. The plane has gone down the runway (I can keep this up for a while). In court it would be said, "But you raised the issue", so come on, let's finish it. You said a large church is sometimes just a social club and a crowd can just be people that aren't "True Christians." So back it up and give me an example of a church that fits that description.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

LOL! Surely you can think of at least one? Then again, maybe you can't.

You really are just a pot stirrer who loves attention! :foottap

I don't have time for such foolishness, thank you.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Which club should I join? The social-club church with lots of unsaved people, or the sinner-club down at the corner bar?

:toofunny

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

And should I be on the board of whichever club I join?

:heeheehee

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Neither!

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

:ursofunnyOne of the best laughs I've had. Why is it that people can throw out these blanket accusations that call into question many, many questions, and then always refuse to back it up.

And no, I can't think of one. I was hoping you could, because I want to make a valid point. I just need a percentage of "True Christians" in one of these "mega-seeker-surface churches." Any takers?

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

You put a laughy thing with the question, but what an amazing question.

There was once a hit-piece done by, I believe, Christianity Today, on Willow Creek. They had reporters go the church exits and would ask them bible questions to test their knowledge. (So stupid)

And out came several muslims and practicing Jews. All of them had been attending the church for about 18 months and the magazine just shredded Willow for it.

I read it and thought, "Dang, I would love to have a bunch of Muslims and practicing Jews in my church on Sundays!! How amazing would that be!!"

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

well, since you have brought this up… you linked to a friend that I went to school with on FB… he goes to a fairly large church that runs about 1,500 people here in my city. Considering the city is only about 15K, that is large for here. He has quite a testimony. The church is growing and is only about 10 years old. They are growing because excited people are inviting because of the changes in their lives and what God has done for them.

Actually two of my friends attend there… and they are on fire for God. In the last several months, they have managed to get me attending one of their weekly services. My friends spend more time at church and bible studies than most Apostolics. They have a daily prayer life and are living for God. I have gotten to know many of the people from that church in the last month. I have realized it is like any other church, you will have a core group of people who are dedicated to the church and their faith and making it a great place of worship. Likewise, you will have people who attend but aren’t as dedicated…what you will find is love for all people and encouragement to continue on.

I have heard ever since it was started years ago, that it is just a social group…blah, blah, blah…Just in the short time that I have been attending, I know why people are changing…because they are being taught the word of God and learning how to live according to the bible. Amazing, the way it should be.

People have to start somewhere…. we are on the same path, I am thankful for the churches offering a place for people to learn, heal and grow spiritually.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Small churches are just as guilty of the statment you make Scott, so what is the purpose of the statment?

If a big church has the same percentage of "true christians" as the small church, which one is doing more for the kingdom?

Isn't this just the condition of humanity in general and we find it wherever we go??

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

I think Scott's concerns are valid.
Many today are results driven. We should first ask what Jesus said we should do, results or no results. Secondly, once our heartbeat is right, we can work on ways to "Compel them to come." More than a church set on growth, is a church passionate about the Gospel. For a healthy church, growth is a byproduct.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

What church do you attend Notofworks? :depressed

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Lisa,

Great post! I think it's so sad that some feel just because it's not a hoe down that God isn't there.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

I'll PM you.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

As you, we should all rejoice with all that call on the name of the Lord. He is at work, and will do His purpose wherever folks hearts are turned toward Him and are hungry to know HIM.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

The Great Commission is about advancing the Kingdom of God. It's not about gathering members for a congregation. The Kingdom of God is composed of people. Technically, God's called out (the church) is also composed of people. Our church services and church buildings are primarily just "schools" of instruction in the Kingdom of God. One need not attend "church" as we know it to be a genuine Christian. However, attending a church congregation will assist with spiritual growth, understanding, education, fellowship, and discipleship. We can expand the Kingdom of God by witnessing daily, praying with those willing to pray anywhere we go. Worship isn't just three songs before offering... worship is a way of life. You can "worship" by following the Spirit of the Lord into a Boston Stoker on your day off and waiting there to share Christ with the soul that God leads to you. You can "worship" while fishing on the lake in the scerene atmosphere of the wilderness, purple mountains, and blue sky... all painted by the very hand of God. You can "worship" while reading a book. You can "worship" while playing with your children. When you do anything in a manner that is dedicated to God's glory it is "worship". In fact all daily tasks or activities of life can be "worship" if their purpose is to glorify God in the moment, every moment.

I fear we think growing a "church" is our mission sometimes. I also fear that we've replaced genuine worship with "song service" and anointing with talent. We think worship is something done in the church building wherein we raise our hands, maybe dance a jig, rattle off our "prayers" with religious vibrato, cheer the preacher, and listen to the sermon. While all of those things "can be" worship... they do not define worship. The most intense "worship" I've had lately was with a friend at their house. You see, we have a My Utmost For His Highest devotional by Oswald Chambers. We read it in the quiet of the living room and then talked about it, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide the conversation. We talked and shared truths and deep things about the Lord for well over an hour and a half. The presence of God was so strong we felt like weeping. All we did was read a devotional, a passage of Scripture, and talk about Jesus all to the glory of God. That was... worship.

Don't know why I felt drawn to the subject of worship here... I feel the Spirit pushing me that direction. Maybe someone here hasn't worshipped in a while or has a misguided notion of what worship is? I don't know... but I typed as I felt impressed to share.

Back to the subject...

Let's advance the Kingdom of God for the sake of souls, their salvation, enrichment, and freedom... NOT to add numbers to a church building.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

So, let me see! If it's a social club then people should not come. But what if they accidentally find a seed sown in their heart in that church. Sure wouldn't have been sown if they were at the bar instead of the "social club church." And I agree rg. Some churches might not be a social club, per se, but they're going to run and scream and jump the pews regardless of who it scares away. (They're gonna have a good time regardless of who goes to hell.) I think I'll post a thread on what is considered "the presence of God."

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Now thats funny right there, I dont care who ya are , thats some funny stuff right there :ursofunny:spit

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

:toofunny Can't argue with you there. But there's a reason, my laughing friend! :lol

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

:lol

My point was that if Notofworks thinks about it, I'm sure he'll note that there are those in his own church that are not genuine Christians. My hopes was to reconcile him with the brother he's having an issue with. The tares grow with the wheat. They'll be dealt with at the harvest.

God bless.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

It is sad, and it was even me just a few years ago. I used to be critical of this church because it grew so fast. Somebody is an organizer...they started in a store front and have grown to a large metal building on a country road on the edge of town.

They have so many classes, tons of classes available and strong teaching of the word of God. People are learning to live for God.

I took Bekah with me to service last week, then it broke out into small groups. The service is different than what I am used to, I am not the biggest fan of rocky contemporary music so much, but it was good music and I really felt at home with the song "How great is our God" because it was familiar to me. I felt the presence of God, but was totally shocked when I looked over to see tears running down Bekah's face. Then throughout the message, she cried too.

I sat behind my friend, and on one song, he lets out a mild "whoop" and kinda bouncing a bit... lol but you have to understand he is a hyper guy. I laughed and told Bekah I would love to see him in a Pentecostal service, he would be bouncing off the walls. :ursofunny

seriously though, the judgmentalism needs to stop against other churches because they are not Apostolic or Pentecostal style. Their worship is to God and they are very sincere.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

That would be wonderful!

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I would not have a clue what "percentage" of people in any church are true Christians - neither would anyone else.

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I have never equated being Pentecostal with being Christian (nor vice versa). To me that is strange, bizarre, sectarian and cultish.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

We that have children, have some that are what we would consider more "spiritual", but we love them just the same and desire the very best for them, and do everything that we can (though limited) for their good. God is no different, and his efforts (unlimited ability) to completely accomplish His intended purpose. So, we are completely out of our calling to be determining who is "true" and who is not.

So, I agree with Hoovie.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

Is this turned around? Maybe this was directed at the other fellow. I readily acknowledge there are many in our church that are non-Christians. Our drummer and one of our guitarists are not "Christians", as well as many in the audience.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

I would have no idea.

Are there any reliable stats for the percentage of American Church members who are "True Christians"?

We would have a problem with a question like that here on AFF because we can't even decide among ourselves what a "True Christian" is.

Does Saddleback have "members"?
If so, does a person have to make a profession of faith before being accepted as a member.

The only church I was ever really a member of was a Baptist church in Union Grove, Wisconsin back in 1955. To become a member, I had to stand up in a public meeting (Wednesday night prayer meeting) and give my testimony. Then, anyone who wanted could ask me any question(s) they had. Afterward there was a vote by those present as to whether or not to accept me for membership and allow me to be baptized/immersed. If I remember correctly there were 4 of us who applied for membership that night. When the chance was given for anyone to question any of us, a deacon stood up and said, "I think their lives show that they are saved" (or something like that) so we were all voted in with no challenges.

Re: Rick Warren Statement
 

I'm aware of that. I'm trying to make a point, and here it is:

A lot of people will bark at Willow, Saddleback, Northpoint, Newspring, Mosaic, etc. They claim that many in those churches are not the "Real Deal". I think that's bunk, but let's just go with it.

Let's be REALLY negative and assume that only 1% of the 40,000 people at Saddleback are "True Christians." That's pretty darned negative....99% of their membership is lost.

Well, if we do the math, that would mean that 400 people are "True Christians", which is still probably quadruple the size of some of the churches some of the nay-sayers attend.

Saddleback and others like it, thank God, cast a very large net and you can't pick and choose who gets in the net.