The Presence of God
 

What do you consider the Presence of God? How do you define "His Presence?" How does the church determine, in the course of a service, "His Presence?"

Re: The Presence of God
 

Wow, there are a lot of ways to define His Presence:
The love that seems to come from nowhere and warms and thrills me inside out
The joy that wells up in me and makes me want to shout
The quiet hush that sweeps across a troubled soul
The peace that comes during trials and storms
The hope beyond hope when logic says there's none
The deep assurance that He is with me no matter what...
The haze of the Shakina
The humbling knowledge that the Creator fills the air we breathe, and floods our souls...
It's that something that makes me dance when there has been sadness, that makes me laugh when there were tears, that tells me all will be well when nothing seems to be.

Yet it goes beyond that. His presence isn't always felt; sometimes it is just known.
I don't know how the church determines His Presence. There are times that I've stood and watched people shout and not felt a thing. There are other times that I was moved deeply and reassured yet no one else thought the service was remarkable at all. Collectively, we are still individuals feeling His joy, peace, love, hope, etc sweep over us, sometimes in similar ways all at the same time and sometimes uniquely for each of us.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Great response Mary. The things that you mentioned I feel are certainly a part of our recognizing His Presence. I don't profess to have all the answers and am very interested in what others determine to be "His Presence" in our churches and in our services and in our everyday life outside of the church..

Re: The Presence of God
 

When you know Him... you can feel him.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Can you define what that feeling is to you?

Re: The Presence of God
 

I'll know His presence for certain when I look directly into his eyes...

Take your pick from about any of the human emotions to attempt to define His presence.

I do fear that modern Pentecost associates God's presence with the amount of dancing and shouting while the music is playing. Wow, I never thought I'd ever say something like that!

Re: The Presence of God
 

And oh do I so agree with you!! I'm going to ask a dangerous question in some circles. ...

How much difference is there in the physical emotion that causes us to scream and shout and run the isles in church and the emotional response that comes forth when our kid just scored a basket or scored a touchdown or our team won?

Do we say we're experiencing God's Presence when it's simply no more than the human nature and ability that he put in us to respond to our feelings. Is it the "Presence of God" or simply our human emotions responding?

BeenThinkin'

Re: The Presence of God
 

You've BeenThinkin' too much..........lol!

Re: The Presence of God
 

Good thoughts!

I'm sure Elijah wasn't shouting and dancing in the cleft of the rock, but His presence was definitely real.

1 Kings 19
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave...

Sometimes we experience His presence by feelings... other times by faith.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Something has moved us, we respond with human emotion. That's why Pentecostal worship is labeled as emotionalism by so many.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Renda, I'm gonna "think a little more," dangerously.

Have you ever noticed the videos made during some church services and around some of the altars in the churches. The looks on individuals faces so often seem to be looks of distress, pain, hurt, grief..etc. When praying with someone to receive "the gift" of the Holy Ghost so often there is no look that represents what I would think would be proper for someone receiving "a gift!"

Yep....BeenThinkin'

Re: The Presence of God
 

There is nothing wrong with responding with human emotion. It is when certain emotions are sought or expected or deemed to be the sole demonstrations of a move of God that emotionalism is dangerous.

Re: The Presence of God
 

I haven't seen it on video much but I've seen it live and in person, yes. I've been in the prayer room and seen the same as well. And heard enough kids say-"I really prayed tonight! I cried and cried," to know that there is sometimes a huge disconnect between what we consider the presence of God and what is actually the glory of God.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Much of Pentecostal worship is "rejoicing in the Lord". Which is fine. But it's generally just us "rejoicing", not necessarily a supernatural move of God bouncing us around.

I know when I feel the presence of God, but I don't know how to put it into words.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Interesingly, I preached about the Presence of God this Sunday Night. I preached from 2Chron 7:14 "If my people...", but I focused on where God said "seek my face" (or presence) in addition to Him saying pray. I believe that most often when we pray, we seek the Hand of God (His Power and His Ability), but God has been dealing with me about seeking, entertaining and appreciating His Face (simply His Presence). I believe that is the missing ingredient for the healing that He promised in the verse.

In His Presence is the fullness of joy. The joy of the Lord is my strength. Where His spirit is there is liberty.
I'm just to the point where in addition to the Hand of God, I must seek His face.

Re: The Presence of God
 

God can be present without us feeling anything. Our emotions are ours and are not directly linked to "God's presence". Sometimes we feel things when God is present and sometimes we do not.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Very powerful thoughts there, tstew!

Re: The Presence of God
 

And sometimes our emotions get out of hand and what we do does not glorify God in any way. (imo) I remember as a boy in church, one man who would supposedly "come under the power of God" and start straightening out in the pew and eventually fall over backwards over the back of the pew. The impression that I got was that he was unable to control his actions in "the presence of God."

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that actions like that did the church more harm than good. I've seen folks knocked down while someone was running the isles. Holes in sheetrock, things broken. Is this the presence of God that is making this person do this?

I want my actions to be such that a visitor is not "scared to death" but is drawn to the presence of God! How does shouting in church give glory to God?

BeenThinkin'

Re: The Presence of God
 

I can clearly remember two experiences where I know without a doubt I was in the presence of something nearly impossible to describe. The first time I was so scared I thought I was going to die. The absolute purity, holiness of this presence paralyzed me. I could not stand to be where I was. I feared that I was literally going to die. Then, the most sweet calm I have ever experienced in my life.
The second experience didn't scare me to death, but I was again paralyzed, then the most warm, calm.
In both instances, I couldn't respond with any emotion at all. I was frozen, speechless.

Re: The Presence of God
 

I've been in services where the shouting scared the visitors. I've been in services where the shouting even scared me! And I have been in services where the dancing and praising and lifted hands were directed to God, totally for God, and the focus of the service was on God, and visitors and saints alike were drawn closer to God.

In my experience, I've seen times when the dancers-that group of 5-10 people, you know who they are-rushed the altar at the beginning of the song and started doing their steps, or hit the aisles before the first chord was hardly struck. That is not holy. It is merely hype. There are also services I've been in when people spontaneously began to smile, to raise their hands, to cry, to dance... when nothing was prompted and almost everyone was involved, and an hour seemed like minutes and I leave feeling refreshed. Those are the times when I leave knowing I've been in God's presence.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Well said, missourimary. I think it's those experiences within the church service setting that prompt such questions and discussion. The two experiences I spoke of happened at home during the middle of the night. The presence woke me up.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Stew - - I too love seeing the JOY of the Lord in a service or a person's life. That to me is a sign realationship with God!

Re: The Presence of God
 

Those one on one times are awesome and humbling. When I read your experiences, I thought of several of my own, totally different but just as incredible. But I don't quite know how to put them in words right now without writing a biography. Just wow.

Re: The Presence of God
 

That's it in a nutshell. Trying to describe the presence of Almighty God in terms of human language hard to do without writing volumes. But one day, I'm going to look directly into His eyes, seeing Him as He is. And I will be just like Him! I'm starting to feel one of those human emotions right now, excitement!

Re: The Presence of God
 

Thanks for all the responses. I hope others will join in and share with us. Perhaps there have been times when we failed to recognize "God Presence," (still small voice?) and with our sharing with each other our experiences maybe we can be more perceptive and more sensitive to God's Presence.

Re: The Presence of God
 

I must admit, I know I've missed that still small voice so many times...

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Me too.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Where is Timmy? I'd like to hear a response from him. Timmy, when you were going to church did you ever "personally" feel or sense the Presence of God?

Re: The Presence of God
 

My parents didn't take me to church til I was probably 5-6. It was a Nondenominational Christian Church, with Church of Christ background. (There are some with Charismatic leanings, but that one didn't.) Bringing in the Sheeves and He Keeps me Singing were as lively as we got.

Mom cleaned the church a lot of times. I liked to be in the sanctuary by myself. There was such a different feel in the church than anything anywhere else. A quiet and a peace... an awe.
When I was 9 I began feeling convicted of my temper and angry outbursts. Specifically I remember the overwhelming realization that Jesus died for me, and that it should have been me that died.
I went to camp for the first time. The last night, a kid got baptized in the pool. Image 100 9-10 year olds crowded around a fence in the dark... but everyone was still. There was such a quiet. We couldn't see anything really, but no one was pushing or talking. And then I had this feeling that God was coming through the group, and sensed that he was looking for someone, for me. It was the first time I really understood that He loved me.
That same summer I asked Jesus into my heart. Many times. It felt so good, a spark of joy in my life where there normally was none. But nothing like the joy and love that flooded me when I told God that I didn't want to be angry with people so much, and asked Him to teach me to love. The only way I can describe what I felt was it was like getting a huge hug from the inside out, and an overwhelming sense that I was loved and of loving others... uncontainable, undeniable, and for me inexplicable love.
Having my whole world pulled out from under me. Calling a few people I didn't really even know and asking for their prayer. Crying for weeks and suddenly one day in prayer an incredible assurance that everything would be OK. Shouting all over the house... tears of joy, and the phone ringing right in the middle of that with one of those two precious men telling me that he had just had a huge burden for me and asking if I was OK... trying to explain; finally bursting out with "I'm sorry. You won't understand this. Nothing has changed, but everything is fine. Everything is going to be just fine!" And hearing the relief and joy in his voice as he responded that he understood. He understood completely.

Those were a few times in God's presence...

Re: The Presence of God
 

Great testimony. I won't get into detail, but those experiences I had have forever changed me. I was going through a real struggle, questioning everything I ever knew or understood of God. He answered and I've never been the same since.

Re: The Presence of God
 

The Presence of God is perceived and operated by and through human emotions. There's no getting around that. It doesn't mean we are to be taken over to uncontrollable hypnosis, but we are certainly able to perceive the Spirit through emotions and spiritual senses. This is where the mind cannot go.

Re: The Presence of God
 

The Presence of God, is God's active presence, often referred to when God is specifically operating in our midst: by comfort, by inspiration, through the gifts of the Spirit, etc...

Interesting point: AOG, Church of Christ and other non-denom pseudo-Pentecostal denoms all admit to wanting more of the operation of the Spirit in their churches. Despite the abuse, Apostolic churches have consituents correcting doctrinal problems but experiencing less of God's presence among them. Without theological dissecting here, it's a true reality. Those of you who don't see Spirit Baptism with tongues as essential, is the experience still common in your congregations? It was common in the churches in Acts. Is it at least common in ours? Or would it be seen as out of place? Curious.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Very interesting point, Jeffrey. Got me to thinking...
I've been at my present church now for five years, I've seen a lot of folks speaking in other tongues, I've seen three filled with the Spirit with evidence of speaking in other tongues. Three in five years. We're not a big church, averaging about 130 or so. It would seem to be common to see the saints all speaking in the Holy Ghost, but only three receiving the Holy Ghost in five years kind of points to it not being so common anymore. Very interesting point...

Re: The Presence of God
 

Oh, hi there! Was just browsing, and happened on this post. Wasn't going to "barge in", otherwise. :winkgrin

Yes. At the time, anyway, I would have described it as that.

:)

Re: The Presence of God
 

Paul, at least it doesn't sound like it's foreign or out of place.
Is there preaching about Spirit baptism? Do things get deep in worship?

Just very curious. Not in a debate mode right now at all :)

Re: The Presence of God
 

Thanks Timmy.
I'm very interested in your answer. It almost sounded to me like, "yes, maybe, I don't know?"

But really, thinking back, don't you really know that there was something that was very special to you in your walk with God at that time. God hasn't changed. I have, you have and all the others on this board have. But God hasn't. Can you think back to a very special moment, I time that you knew, that you knew......and what was that that you really knew??? Thanks for sharing with us.

Been Thinkin"

Re: The Presence of God
 

Exactly. :D

Actually, for me, such times were not very frequent. Most of my time at altars and such was spent in quiet contemplation and prayer. But yes, there were some times of emotional reaction to what I thought of as "God's presence".

At times like this, I think our expectations are the biggest factor in determining what happens to us, our senses, our emotions and feelings, and perceptions. Whether God is actually present and doing things to make us feel His presence may or may not be relevant. Even if it does sometimes happen, we can always cook it up ourselves, and nobody would be the wiser.

Even so, folks seem to enjoy it, and it even seems to have a role in changing people for the better, sometimes, so who am I to criticize? ;)

Re: The Presence of God
 

And you are so right! There have been many times that those moments have been cooked up by the individual. But, I do believe there are those times when God truly visited each of us in a very special way. Those are the moments when in doubt, when our beliefs are in question, when we really don't know what to believe, that we lean back on that very personal, "real moment," and let it be the link that helps us to hold onto God!

Timmy, I left the "Union" (organization) when leaving the organization wasn't cool. I didn't know anyone else, did not have anyone else that I could council with. If I talked to those whom I was leaving, you know what they would have said. If I talked to the other side, (the trinitarians) you know what they would say. So! I decided that I would simply open the Book and let it say whatever it said. No arguing for organization, not to back up a religion or a denomination.

I don't think that God inspired His Word and made it so difficult that it would take a great theological degree to understand it. (not against education now! although I was taught against it when I was young because the Lord was coming soon.) But, anyway, there were those moments when I wondered, "is there really a God, have I been sold a bill of goods, is this like Santa Claus, you know. But separate and apart from the shout, the emotion, the show...,there is a God who made this world, the rose, the baby, and all the other beauty. I love Him and thank Him for all the "special moments" when no one else was around and knew..... Enough said! Thanks for hearing me out and thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

BeenThinkin' ...... about Timmy!

Re: The Presence of God
 

Where I go, I do not believe it is taught to be essential to salvation. However, most everyone speaks in tongues and other gifts are very common. Worship can be lively at times, but always spirit filled worship. Awesome worship services....but not like upc that I came from...hard to explain. No wild jumping or out there shouting...although sometimes there is dancing.

Re: The Presence of God
 

Think it's possible to honor and even worship the Creator, even if you don't believe He wrote (inspired) an instruction Book for us?