The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

What is the Biblical response to Acts 2:38 & the rite of entry into the Chrisitan church, aka the body of Christ? Let us enter into a challenging and scriptural debate concerning these things. And yes, I do believe in tongues. My question is how do some force their rigid interpretation of Acts 2:38 (meaning if one hasn't spoken in tongues, they are damned, no matter what else) into the following verses? Please feel free to answer question by question, or verse by verse.

What was the BIBLICAL RESPONSE to Peter's preaching on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter two? And what was the result of that response?

Answer, verse 41.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

#1)they were baptized (an act which follows repentance in the normative New testament pattern)

#2)they were added to the church

Question, where are tongues present or even implied in this passage?

In Acts 2:37 the people ask Peter a question, "What shall WE do?"
Peter's reply:
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. " Acts 2:38

Please correct me if I'm reading it wrong, did not Peter give them 2 specific commands? 1)repent 2)be baptized these are things that we choose to do, or not to do. The third thing is something that God only can do. Is it impossible that God would give the gift of the Holy Ghost to those who obey what Peter preached? Yet, as I mentioned, where are tongues present in the passage? Only as a means to preach the gospel between verses 4-11.

When they followed Peter's two commands, does not the Bible say they were added unto them (verse 41)?

Did not Luke quote Jesus in Luke 24:47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. "

Where does remission of sins take place, and entry into the Christian faith?
Furthermore, can your sins be forgiven and washed away, and you still be lost? On what account would you be damned, if you were to stand before God sinless?

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:3-5

How can someone be baptized INTO Christ, and enter into newness of life, and still be lost (for not speaking in tonuges)? Can you be IN CHRIST, and be lost all at the same time?

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses Colossians 2:11-13

Again, how can you be buried with Him, and risen with Him, and forgiven all, and be lost?

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

or, quoted without Paul's explaination- The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

Now, I personally believe Paul's explaination is needed so that one doesn't teach baptismal regeneration. I am in no way promoting a view that the water does anything special in and of itself, but suggesting that it is our response to the gospel, and the command to be baptized that brings about the result. In other words faith in God and the blood of Jesus is the means upon which we recieve regeneration. And such faith is demonstrated in responding to the gospel through repentance and water baptism.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19

One thing I notice when studying tongues in the gospel, especially the great commission, is that tongues are not mentioned in Matthew's account. Mentioned in Mark account, not with salvation, but rather as signs that will foloow believers, but not necessarily for ALL believers (unless one suggest all believers are required to cast out devils, drink poisonous things,etc). And Luke speaks of the promise of the Father, but doesn't link it to salvation (mentioned in 24:47) but in the smae manner as Mark, as more of an "empowerment" given to the church to fulfill the mission of Christ. (Luke 24:49)

That enough to get us started.

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

I would like to also add a few quotes from Bro. David Bernard's book "The New Birth"

"After baptism we never have to face the record of our past sins again" pg. 134

"God washes away sins at baptism when we call on His name." pg. 132

"Baptism has become a means of salvation for us ....since God washes away sins at baptism..." pg. 133 (the entire quote is similar to Paul's quote, not the washing away of the fifth of the flesh...")

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

and off to the other board this thread will go. LOL!

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

Thank You!!

This is the most concise description I have ever seen of what I have long beleived.

I DO beleive that tongues is an experience that God gives us to confirm is presence with us, and bring us closer to him, but I have NEVER gotten a good explanation for how one could be repentant, have his sins washed away, and yet end up in hell.

In scriptural study, one must always identify passages as descriptive (things that DID happen) from perscriptive (things that MUST happen). Tongues on receiving the holy Ghost, as noted in the 4 Acts stories that are used to show tongues as evidence, are things that DID happen. Acts 2:38 tells us what MUST happen.

Some would say everything that DID happen MUST happen again, but passages about the OT patriarchs multiple wives and concubines were clearly historic descriptions and not an instruction to us today. So to the descriptions in Acts of the early church living communally.

Dont get me wrong...Tongues are to be desired for spiritual growth, and should be taught.....but not as salvational

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I am of the belief that if tongues were the only bonifide sign a person has receved the spirit it would work

The examples in the bible, when tongues were used as a sign, it just happened. no coachng, no one told them, now you are going to speak in tongues.

We see no examples in the book at failed attempts to "Get It"

No examples of alter workers jiggling jaws, praying in seekers ears,

No examples of someone being told, that was really a nice try, you almost got it, come back and try again next Sunday night. BTW pray and fast all week and try to make yourself better or good enough so God can come into your life.

We make a mockery of grace, mercy and forgivness when we tell people they have to make themselves good enough for God to save.

While we were yet sinners, He loved us and paid for our sin.

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

AMEN!!

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

AMEN!

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

Another AMEN!!

What a journey to get here!

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

Some say that the Holy Ghost is God speaking through us. If that's the case God sure has a limited vocabulary in some cases, for I've heard some say the same thing over and over and over. Seems to me like it is a learned response and not a divine inspiration. Just my thoughts.

And another thing, begging for the "GIFT" of the Holy Ghost goes against common sense. You don't beg for "a gift!" It is a gift, given, not begged for.
The dictionary said about a gift...."a thing given willingly to someone without payment."

BeenThinkin

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

I know of a preacher that in most every sermon, when he hits his stride, gives out a "Shondo ma hya"

I don't remember any other utterances.

Did you ever think to yourself it all tongue talking in the bible was by the spirit WHY would Pau,l writing by the spirit, have to tell the Corinthians not to be doing it all the time (1 Cor 14)

If it was a botherig the Holy spirit enough to tell Paul to address this issue, why did't the holy spirit just not manifest this gift thru the Corinthians

A Corinthian speaks in tongues by the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit tells them Shhhhhh !! thru Pauls epistle.

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

:popcorn2

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

While there is no doubt that some things are commanded/prescribed and other things are descriptive.....there are descriptive things that also explain how the prescribed is fulfilled or what some would call the normative response/pattern. IMHO the bolded statement is what makes your conclusion false.

I agree that Acts 2:38 tells us what 'Must" happen! However, the historical evidence in the rest of the book tells us "how" that "must" was fulfilled. In all but one case that any received the Holy Ghost, it was evidenced specifically by speaking with tongues, and IMHO it is easy to deduct from all of the other instances that the Samaritan's experience was the same.

Remember that when the report was given to the Jerusalem council concerning Cornelius and his household they identified tongues as the "proof" that the Holy Ghost had fallen on the gentiles the same as it had on the Day of Pentecost. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that every time the writer of the book of Acts says someone received the Holy Ghost they are making that statement based on what they had established as the "initial" sign. If there had been any other "alternative" proof of having received the Holy Ghost it would have been noted.

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

But why do we need "proof" of people getting the Holy Ghost? Sinners may need evidence, but why does the church? In Acts 2, the Holy Ghost had never before been poured out in such a way. In Acts 10, the Holy Ghost had never been poured out on Gentiles before. Therefore, evidence may have been needed in certain cases. But does that mean it is always necessary to have outward evidence?

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

An excellent point.

I am trying to remember the last time I heard the sound of a mighty rushing wind or saw cloven tongues like as of fire as well.

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Nice try......... the wind/fire was not mentioned in the other historical occasions, however, tongues is a consistent part of the experience.

IMHO tongues as the initial evidence is easy to explain and understand. In the book of James we are told that if any man can control his tongue he can control the whole body. I believe that God could have chosen any "evidence" of having received his spirit that he wanted to.......but if he has control of the tongue he should have control of the whole body. I know many will say "what about those who's life/actions etc never change, or don't change right away?" If they never change....then they have not received the Holy Ghost or they aborted the work of God in their life. If their change is slow/gradual........it is the Holy Ghost working in them as they grow/mature in their relationship with God. (Just as it does in all of our lives......at least in mine.....I am not perfected as yet.....as hard as that may be to believe)

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What is the text surrounding the verses in James discussing? People getting the Holy Ghost or offenses, hypocrisy, and faith/works/fruit in the life of a believer?

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So you say, it's reasonable. Millions upon millions of Christians that show forth the sign Paul wrote about (Fruits and Love) reasonably disagree with your humble opinion.

Normative would then conclude that all liars would drop dead in the middle of a church service and be carried out by the ushers as did Annias and Saphirs in acts 5

Acts is a historical account of things that happened in the early church not necesarrily written to establish doctrines.

No where were we given instructions in the epistles that tongues were normative as salvational evidence.

In fact the epistles declare that God manifes all the gifts in believrs AS HE CHOOSES declaring some manifest prophrcy, some gifts of healing, some discernmet SOME tongues..... AS HE DECIDES.

and askes rehtoriclly, "do all speak with tongues"?


and please. enough with the argument that there are tongues as a gift and tongues as initial evidence......there is no scripture stating that.

I spent thirty years in the camp of the three steppers initial evidence folks.

I taught this doctrine o people and for that I have asked forgivness.

I speak in tongues. You speak in tongues all yuo'd like (within the guidelines of 1 Cor 12,13,14) but please examine closely your exegesis of your proof texts.

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

:amen
I appreciate your honesty. I share the same testimony. I mentioned earlier in another thread how folks say that their speaking in tongues is God speaking through them, and yet they say the same thing over and over, in every service. It sounds like a learned thing to me. Is God that limited in His vocabulary.

And another thing.... It's a gift. If I do my part and then leave the rest up to Him, if it's mandatory, then I'm sure He'll will do His part. Oh yes, I know the next response. We watch and if they don't speak in tongues then we become judges and make a determination that they didn't truly repent. It's amazing how much some folks think that God can't do His gift giving without our judgement.

To the best of my memory the only time there was any tarrying was simply when the disciples were waiting in the upper room for the power from on high. In no other case do I remember they were tarrying, or waiting or begging for the Holy Ghost.

I am sure that this has been brought up before, but when did John the Baptist speak in tongues. He was filled in his mothers womb. Boy would I like to have him as a son....I could brag about how young my boy was when he first talked.

BeenThinkin ......again!

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

Been thinkin and Freeatlast: :thumbsup

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

You know, on this initial evidence topic.

Acts 10:44-48 was NORMATIVE...there ya go, I agree.

It was NORMATIVE that when people heard the gospel in faith that they received the Holy Spirit. It is just an automatic.

What WAS NOT normative in this account was that they spoke in tongues when this happened.

It was so UNnormative that the believers that were with Peter were AMAZED.

It was not what they normally saw happen when people responded to the gospel.

What usally occured was like when the Philipian jailer got saved and when Lydia came to faith. No mention of them speaking in tongues.

No mention of the 3000 speaking in tongues.

There is way to much ASSUMING going on in the 3 step initial evidence doctrine.

Yes, tongues were a sign in the instances we all rally upon BUT there is nothing that should lead any of us to believe that this will happen in every instance every time.

The Acts do not record tongues in every instance that people come to faith.

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Exactly! Thank you!!! :thumbsup

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

I respect your right to an opinion, however, IMO, Such arguments are straw men that are conjured up to justify a departure from sound doctrine. To use your logic...... There were millions of Jews who believed that followers of Jesus were heretics and had blasphemed against God by their conversion.....that did not make the majority right, and the Christians wrong; anymore than it makes the non-tongue talking folks right, and the tongue talking or tongue as a sign believing people wrong..... C'mon you can do better than that.

Secondly, your example to explain away "normative" is quite funny. There is only one instance of people falling over dead as a result of lying to the Holy Ghost found in the New Testament, and no where can we find any evidence that when others fell over dead they said ...."we know that they lied because they fell over dead the same as Ananias and Sapphira did when they lied." Again Bro......C'mon you know better than that!

And last but not least......you are correct....the epistles do not address the "normative" of tongues being present when one is filled with the Holy Ghost, because all of the writers of the epistles had spoke with tongues and understood it was the accepted "norm."

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

The tongues that DID happen show what happens when someone receives the Spirit

The MUST happen is...you MUST receive the Spirit.

Patriarchs having multiple wives is not an example of something happening when one is filled with the Spirit.

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

1 Cor 12: 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

vs 11 tells us that God gives each one of us the "MANIFESTION" of his spirit in our lives in SEVERAL differnet ways

We seem to want to see only tongues as evidence of the spirit being manifest in a believers life.

In verse 18 Paul again instructs that the gifts are distubted to each but as HE WILL

18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

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Freeatlast, I have often read your responses on different topics and enjoyed them, however, on this topic you have really used some illogical reasoning. For you to try to use the fact that the witnesses of the Holy Ghost outpouring on Cornelius and his household as proof that this was not "normative," is ridiculous. They were amazed because they did not believe that the gentiles could be saved.....not because they were surprised that they spoke in tongues. The fact that they spoke with tongues was the proof that they had received the spirit.

Using the term "came to faith" (unless you are now a one stepper) does not equal salvation. I believe many people come to a point of faith, which opens their heart to seek after God, and leads them to repentance. However, if they do not follow on to know the Lord it does them no good.

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and you are certain of this because you assume everybody speaks in tongues when Gods spirit fills them.

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I love it when someone uses this scripture!!!!! Notice, "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good." here the Apostle Paul makes it very clear that there is "the manifestation" of "the spirit" that is given for the common good. In other words every believer will receive the same manifestation of the spirit. He then goes on to describe that after one has received the spirit (with the same manifestation as everyone else) that there are diverse giftings that are the result of one receiving the spirit. Many different gifts and different administration of those gifts.....one spirit and one common manifestation of that one spirit....with diverse gifts and operations as a result of having the one spirit.

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Brother ..you read much between the lines on that response. That is in no way indicating that.

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1 Cor 12: 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

(Sure Bishop break it apart her and insert all will manifest the gift of tongues" )


8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

No.....no assumption here!!!! It's pretty much there in black and white.

Acts 10:44-46 KJV
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. the next verse tells how they knew that the Holy Ghost was given. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

ESV
44While Peter was still saying these things,(BO) the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among(BP) the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because(BQ) the gift of the Holy Spirit(BR) was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them(BS) speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,

AMP
And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them talking in [unknown] tongues (languages) and extolling and magnifying God. Then Peter asked,

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Love ya Bishop...but I gotta go to dinner ;-)

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

Love you as well.....have a great dinner!

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Bishoph, where did it say in this discourse that everyone received the same manifestation of the spirit?

“7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

To one....
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;

To another....
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another....
9 To another faith by the same Spirit;

To another....
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

To another....
10 To another the working of miracles;

To another....
to another prophecy;

To another....
to another discerning of spirits;

To another....
to another divers kinds of tongues;

To another....
to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” 1 Corinthians 12:7-11, KJV.

I didn't see the wording "the gifting." It seems that all of the nine statements are statements of a manifestation of that self same spirit, that were divided to every man severally as he will.

I am sorry that you disagree with me but I'm not mad about it...not even offended.

Have you ever considered that every person that posts on AFF thinks he or she is right?

BeenThinkin

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

BTW in Acts it never says they receive the gift of tongues,

It just says they began to speak with other tongues

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Certainly! many people believe they are right. however, I have always been willing to change my opinion if it is not in alignment with scripture. However, in these scriptures I cannot see how one can arrive at the conclusion that you, freeatlast, and others have. (BTW I'm not mad in the least)

Notice that in verse 7....the apostle say that "to EVERY man is given THE manifestation of the spirit." It does not say manifestations but rather THE manifestation (singular). Then in the subsequent verses he speaks as to the various gifts that are given. To one is given, and to another, and to another....etc. All of those gifts come as a result of having the spirit, and there is a singular manifestation of having received that spirit. The Apostle even declares that this one manifestation is for the common good. Think about it.....if every person could have a different manifestation (proof) of having received the Spirit, then we as humans would begin to justify any and every thing as the manifestation and all truth would be subject to private interpretation. However, if there is one single marker/indicator/manifestation it would be for the "common good" of all believers, because there would be no confusion.

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There are about (don't remember the actual number right now) 20 accounts of conversion/salvation in the Book of Acts and several times it is recorded that the experience was followed by water and/or Spirit baptism.

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To one is given.... and that is singular. To another is given .... and again it is a single gift.

How is it we can demand, beg, plead, seek, tarry for "A GIFT!" Doesn't it seem practical that if it is a gift God will do as the scripture said ........ 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” 1 Corinthians 12:7-11, KJV.

And why did Paul ask "do all speak with tongues." And I know the pat answer, but tell me where is there a list of different tongues?

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not against the principle of speaking with tongues. I just do not believe that the Bible bears out that you have to beg for a gift that was promised as a gift and that you're not saved until you have talked in tongues. We can't give ourselves tongues (although there are those who can speak on demand) and I feel like we have done the gospel an injustice to establish a order of begging for a gift. If you obey Him he will give you any gift He has for you. And no where do I read that we are commanded to get the tongue talking.

I do believe this....

“31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31, KJV.

“13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
1 John 5:13, KJV.

“23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”
1 John 3:23, KJV.

“35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13:35, KJV.

Wouldn't this (have love one to another) be the best manifestation, by far, than speaking in tongues.

By the way, I have been around this a long time and some of the tongues that I have seen in some of the best churches I do not believe is God speaking through someone. If it's God speaking please tell me why He is so limited in his vocabulary. They say the same thing over and over. It seems to me like it has become a learned thing. Forgive me if I'm wrong...but I don't think I am.

Been Thinkin

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

ok, here is a shorter version, maybe someone will deal with this specifically since no one is addressing any of the verses I posted. Off to church tonight, Iwill check back late this evening.



the question is, at what point is someone "IN CHRIST" or "added" to the church?

Re: The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38
 

In Christ through Baptism-Romans 6

In the Church Body via the Spirit 1 Corinthians 12

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Another question I'd ask is, while tongues may be "evidence" of the abiding presence of the Holy Ghost... is it possible for the Holy Ghost to have an abiding presence without "evidence"? Many things in the Christian walk are true and very real, but lacking "evidence".