So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

... of death for us? The explanation of this seems to be wide and varying.

I have this simple question for those who are Universalists and others in the Is Hell real debate..... It also concerns some forms of belief of imputed rightouessness/justification and substitutionary atonement.

Since we "deserved" death and Jesus took upon the penalty of death in exchange. Why is Jesus now not still experiencing such a penalty? Is not the penalty of sin BEYOND this physical death into eternity? If the penalty was death why such a turn around to be resurrected? Whether he could raise himself or not, where is this equal exchange of death for life?

Could this mean the only aspect of punishment was only to DEATH "once" in this life and then nothingness, which was the fuel of the Pharisee and Sadduccee debate? Thus annihilation is the true punishment?

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Jesus was slaughtered for our sin. The resurrection was proof that the sacrifice was accepted.

I know I am not giving you a complete explanation but this is a good question and one that I would love to talk about when I have more time.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

The question though is why is Jesus not still taking upon our penalty NOW if our punishment was eternal separation and punishment. That is not truly taking upon our punishment or God's wrath if that is what our punishment actually was.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Well, our offense is against a perfect and holy God and demands eternal punishment.

Jesus blood satisfied the sin debt. His blood was righteous. As the perfect and sinless son of God his blood purchased and paid for our salvation and God accepted this payment on our behalf.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

If you where just sentenced to eternal life in prison. I came along and said Delta. I have a clean record and I will serve your time for you while you live free on the other side ofthe fence. You get excited accept my exchange and three days later your walking along and I say HEY! You look at me and go... uh I thought your where in prison? I say oh that... well I can walk out anytime I want. Is that really accepting the offense and punishment? Do you think the judge will say that was correct exchange?

The issue here is either with the view many have of substitutionary atonement or our view of the penalty or maybe both. I think both but I wanted others input.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

I agree but his penalty was only that of temporal death? correct?

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

:hmmm Were any of the animals of OT sacrifices resurrected? Were any of those sacrifices accepted?

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

No. If they were then Jesus wouldn't have had to die.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

The difference is that the sacrifice was accepted.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

the judge could accept my taking your penalty but me not DOING THE TIME is not TAKING your penalty. I am out acting like a free man.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

The doctrine of annihilation is NOT that when you die thats it. The wicked will be raised at the judgment. They will be cast into the lake of fire. Eventually they will die the SECOND DEATH.

They will cease to exist. As Yeshua, Peter, and Jude said. Death is nothingness. It is darkness.

Note the following:

11: And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12: But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 8:11-12

17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 2 Peter 2:17

13: Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Jude 13

The soul that sinneth shall die. The wages of sin is death. Whosoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have eternal life.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Or maybe your concept of God and justice is wrong instead of the concept of substutionary atonement...

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Huh? Leviticus 4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

That forgiveness was supposedly contingent on Christ's sacrifice... You should have known that Timmy! ;)

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Does it actually say that, anywhere? ;)

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Of course not... you can't expect it to spell out every little thing for ya ;)

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

:heeheehee

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

BTW, I posted something in the blog room a while back that may help:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...221#post809221

:winkgrin

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

HEy I am just putting out what others stated. It's not my belief.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

I know what the second death is was just pointing to those that believe punishment would end.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Christ died for those who would "believe" on him. To them he gave power to become the sons of God. Dwelling outside of Christ is damnation, in Christ salvation.

A true understanding of biblical judgment does not teach eternal (as meaning; without an end). Much of the judgment Israel experienced, has already taken place.

The soul that sins shall surely die. The reward of the wicked is temporal (as in this life), the reward of the righteous is eternal. Eternal life is a "gift" God gives to those who have the life of Christ in them.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

By over coming death and the grave he became the author of Eternal Life. If he did not raise from the grave, having the keys, we would have no hope.

It was not just his death, but his resurrection

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

So, were sins in OT times forgiven via that sweet smell of burning animal flesh, or weren't they?

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

The wages of sin is death, Jesus paid the awful penalty, destruction and death. He paid the price of the sins of the whole world, reconciling the whole world to God.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Jesus took our penalty and He paid it, which proves that the wages of sin is not eternal damnation. He is not in Hell.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

Thanks was hoping you would respond. If Jesus paid our penalty as many preach or took upon himself the wrath of God as some teach etc... I can only see true eternal death or UR as the options. IF you agree with the mindset that he took the punishment or wrath in his death. I don't but that another view. Thus those like Lutzer would have to explain this depending on there view of the result of eschatological judgment.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

I would agree but my point is concerning the view of the penalty in which he took. If it is simply "death" in this life and as many teach on TBN(totaly brainless nuts) he really took upon God's wrath.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Re: So did Jesus really take upon the penalty...
 

So what would be the wrath that Jesus endured IF if he took upon our penalty?