Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

UGST has the documents for reading here

http://www.ugst.org/page.cfm?p=613

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Amazing!

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Segraves states that this issue is so sensitive that he feels he cannot identify the author of a document detailing several references to the occult to support using a woman's uncut hair as a magical talisman.

From the citations to "shaking it in the wind" - it seems that LS may have read the same source material. And, this is the subject of discussion at the UPCI's seminary symposium, a forum where doctrinal controversies are aired out. Yet some will say that DAII is the one who "invented" this controversy.

Since DAII wasn't even referenced in the symposium papers it seems that this controversy really does exist and that it exists with or without DAII's participation in the debate.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

!WoW!

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Johnny come latelys, like Junior Detective, Bob Dylan, would like to reframe the argument acting as if this controversy just sprung up when I started getting vocal about it, in 2007, with the HMH blog.

Truth be told it has been at the center of the storm for a long time ... for about a decade and a half ... Guys like MB know that it was fodder on FaithChild and New Faith Child ...

With articles by Newman and Murphy concerning Power Before the Throne being discussed in 2003 ... like this one:
http://web.archive.org/web/200502042...3bookforum.htm


And Jim Yohe giving Reider a chance to respond here:
http://web.archive.org/web/200502151...dbackforum.htm

Terms like "divine hair", "holy hair" and "magic hair" predate me ever coming to the scene ... and I cannot take credit for coining them.

JY was to write a book on the topic before he passed, according to friends.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Karen Harding, Thursday night, March 4, 2010, San Marcos, Texas - "There is power in uncut hair. I was in services with Brother Stoneking in Houston."

This is going to be our modern day Latter Rain Movement!! We will weather this storm.

We have seen people leave, pivoting away from sound doctrine concerning the Gospel message. Anywhere you go, from my observation, something is being preached incorrectly. BTW, His name is Jesus. It is not Father God. That is just so annoying! LOL!

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Heard it in TX, now you can believe it's happening.

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Harding said that ... WOW. Not surprised by disappointed.

I agree PO ... this is Branham and friends revisited.

Its a matter of time that audio tapes of the prophet will become part of the liturgy.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

I was surprised to hear it. Yes. Not a whole lot of response from the audience on that.

As I said, this is looking to become our modern "latter rain movement". We will weather this.

I was around a host of people the past three days who have major, fundamental differences in theology. I observed that no one was 100% correct in every area of the Bible, just like no one on this forum is 100% in every area.

No sense in bailing for Father God terminology, Holy Ghost is for empowerment and is not salvific, can't speak in tongues in a church service, etc. You have to choose where to stand through all of this. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. That appears to be the bottom line for me.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Daniel,
I'm serious. I think all the blood drained out of my face. But, God spoke to me about this later and I understand the passage better.

We have order as in - the head of every man is Christ, head of woman is man and head of Christ is God.

If we do not maintain unity and submission in that order, we have no "power" - exousia: privilege,freedom, right and strength. It is not dunamis: force, specifically miraculous power.

I Peter 3 goes into this further - our prayers can be hindered. My husband is only as strong behind the pulpit as my support for him and vice versa.

We then get into gender distinction. In the book of Genesis God made male and female and He called that good. He wants a distinction. It is important. That is the point on the hair.

If we look for anything else in this passage we are looking for a bad, magical Disney movie, IMO.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Folks, if someone says "there is power in abstaining from fornication", or "there is power in being truthful", these are not stretches, and I think both of you distinguished thinkers would verify that the statement is accurate to a degree. If KH said verbatim "there is power in uncut hair", it is alluding to the same thing, that "there is power in obeying God's word". When KH said what she said, I in no way believe she or anyone who heard her believe that uncut hair in and of itself has magical powers in it's material substance. I agree with you that some of the language some may be using needs to be addressed, but there is no reason to defame inidividual's about this. If Dan Seagraves or DKB, or one of our other accomplished theologians are making incomlete statements, I would be concerned. But that is not the case. While she may be giften in talent and Spiritual gifts, KH is not our leading voice regarding theological matters, and her statement, IF this is what she said "verbatim", should not be given much weight or be a great cause for concern. Preachers need to address the language and understanding so that incomplete understanding is not propogated. And IMO, that will be enough. People should not be slandered, and there was probably no reason to bring KH's name into the picture.

I also want to say that I tend to be more in the camp of DKB's thoughts concerning "letting down hair" than I do DS's. I do not think unconventional acts of demonstration that elevate faith are limited to the instances in scripture of people laying under Peter's shadow, and people taking handkercheifs from Paul. Although these are identified in scripture as things people were doing, there is NO instruction from scripture or the apostles directing people to do these things. There were "unprecedented" acts at the time, and they set a precedent for other "unprecedented" acts that may "focus individual faith". Not only were these acts not instructed in scripture, they were not discouraged either.

Our theologians and Bible students MUST be accurate and thorough in their language and teaching, our preachers MUST endeavor to follow this order, AND our authors (theologians or not) must do due diligence to ensure their phraseology and verbiage is consistent with prevailing theology in our movement, especially regarding doctrinal matters. Problematic or erratic language being used must be addressed, but individual character should be spared in the process. JMHO

Dan, you are credited with HMH semantics, because it was your efforts that made the nomenclature more widely trumpeted. Like it or not, YOU are the HMH Website guy! lol... :)

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Excellent assessment sister... that was my take when I heard LS a little over a week ago in CA. His message wasn't even about hair solely, it was about God's order in creation, and our ability to access the authority available by submitting to His order through obedience. 1 Cor 11 is the passage that LS focuses on 1.) because it describes the flow of God's authority through the order he established in creation, and 2.) because 1 Cor 11 deals with a specific instructions, uncut hair for women and short hair for men, as gender-oriented signs of submission to that authority. The fact that in the context of divine authority, Paul appeals to the proper grooming of hair for men and women; when LS deals with divine authority, he properly deals with the acts of submission in proper grooming of hair for men and women. You cannot seperate the hair issue from the flow of divine authority any easier than you can extract 1 Cor 11:4-16 from it's immediate context and put it somewhere else in the scripture.

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The problem, IMO, lies in which definition is being used. From what I am seeing and hearing, the word for power being used is - "dunamis"/force or miraculous power. The correct definition - exousia"/authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength. Exousia would be correct in I Cor 11. Dunsmis is incorrect and is stretching and pushing the interpretation in the wrong direction for what was actually intended.

I agree. It needs to be addressed. The wording is coming off as miraculous power. That is unfortunate.

Great reason to bring her up. It is being propagated and needs to be addressed. Besides you can order the CD/DVD, so it would be public knowledge. I am particularly concerned as the Herald lined out our view and stand on this issue as an organization. It appears that it is being ignored. That is not a good thing and it offends me greatly!

Yes, BUT, we do have an example of handkerchiefs and Peter's shadow being instrumental in a spiritual demonstration. We have NO example of hair being used in any way to promote spiritual demonstration. Jesus' feet were washed with tears and hair. Nothing but submission, faith, honor and love were displayed in that example.

Agreed! :thumbsup

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Here is our difference - I cannot say that I feel comfortable saying, emphatically, "We may need to reach outside of the Greek in order to define "long" as "uncut". I don't see why Paul would have to do that. The order, authority, submission and gender distinction (short hair on men and long hair on women) is clear and I believe that. I just don't believe that you can define the "long" as "uncut". If I was pushed to answer that as a definite heaven or hell - well - I can't do that and feel good about it.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

She was the singer I spoke of at the singles meeting in Visalia "letting her hair down"

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1Cor 11 does NOT teach about "authority available" in any degree. It teaches on Christ being our head, man being the woman's head and FOR THAT REASON the woman is supposed to have a symbol of that authority ON her head.

It has 100% NOTHING to do with having divine authority to do things, let alone summon angels or be protected by angels.

Yes you CAN separate the issue because these verses are not about Divine authority in the hands of men.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

But they are not saying these things. They are not going around the country preaching those things, making those statements over and over and over.

Why?

Why hair and not these other things?

Apparently because they think there is something particularly special about long hair.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Or then linking these things to miracles in the same message. Are we laying "abstinent bodies" on folks to heal the sick? Or laying "truthful tongues" on our backslidden sons and daughters?


It's just as "unfortunate" that the Mormons preach the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ but also believe the Book of Moroni is divinely inspired.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Excellent point. And from the landscape I see, it would be far more beneficial to focus on these things rather than centering a movement around a remote verse in the middle of nowhere. And why not focus on morality and honesty? It seems to be those things we struggle with most.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

At this point, I can't take him seriously anymore ... first DS was in his camp, now after further review he realizes he's not ... and somehow thought PO was echoing his sentiments. The only thing he and PO have in common are their pleas to tone down the rhetoric by attaching this doctrine to its teachers.

This type of reading to see what lines up with my assertions and inability to read in between the lines ... besets so many.

We know PO is not happy with how LS is presenting this ...

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Are you saying she did this to enhance her worship in some way ... like the young lady on FB who says she does this to somehow increase the move of God when leading worship?

If so ... it's just another example of leadership and those in platform ministry encouraging these behaviors on the young, naive, impressionable minds like BD.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

LS "cued" the ladies near the end...the title of the message was something about real power, the body of the message was this stuff about uncut hair. He preached the entire message to the woman and they ended the "party" by letting down their hair so there would be a powerful move at the alter call

I think that was the last time or one of the last times I ever went to a meeting where LS was preaching. It was a let down.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Would love to have the video for that ....

Snake handlers speak in tongues and dance in the Spirit but its "unfortunate" they do so with snakes in their hands.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

lol...Im gonna start using that word "unfortunate" until it looses it's meaning, wouldn't that be unfortunate?

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Literally!

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

It was unfortunate

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

When and where exactly was this supposed to have happened?

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Visalia, a few years ago. Ask Arphaxad, he was there too

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Did it work? When they "went berzerk" and let there hair down was there a strong move in the assembly?

If so, and many lives were touched, are you guys not the ones kickign against the pricks just because you don't like the factthat men still stand up preachign that women shouldn't be hackign off their glory?

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

That is unfortunate.

What I do see is that people are still receiving the Holy Ghost, still being healed, still finding answers. KH preached at a ladies prison and 45 women received the Holy Ghost. In the midst of her misunderstanding this passage of scripture, God is still moving.

That is why, while I do rejoice to hear good reports from other church types, it doesn't mean that they have all of truth. People can hear that you don't need the Holy Ghost for salvation, it's only for empowerment, but if they are hungry, they will be filled. God is responding to a hungry heart. Catholics are receiving His spirit - He will pour out His Spirit!

Someone needs to send KH a copy of Daniel Segraves' article in the Herald!!

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

I think the key here is faith ....

Jesus was moved to operate in the miraculous even among the unbelievers ... how many unbeliever Gentiles experience a miracle ... not because they were obedient disciples or operated in authority?

God move in spite of us very often ... despite our whacky doctrines and even among sinful men ... We know of ministers who have been involved in affairs ... bound by alcoholism who in spite of this God works in the supernatural.

None of this excuses teaching irresponsibly or wreckless with unsound, heretical doctrine.

Yes, send her a copy of DS' article.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

I agree, Daniel - faith is the key. A move of God isn't always a stamp of approval for everything that is taught and preached. That includes all churches and not just the UPCI, I might add. That is a given.

And you are right - no excuse for being irresponsible with doctrine. I won't say wreckless for KH. I think she has misunderstood this having a heritage that goes way back. She just needs someone to kindly take her aside and show her where she is in error. God is building a church and IMO, this needs to come to a head in order to correct it.

We have a tendency to view trouble as the end all, when it only stands out for our attention and needed correction. That is a necessary life skill for many things that crop up in our lives and in the church.

I agree with these points made by DKB in his article, The Bible’s Teaching about Hair Length: Culture or Command?, which is linked in the first post of this thread.

• A woman is to respect the leadership of her own husband (Ephesians 5:22; Colossians 3:18; I Peter 3:1).
  
• Salvation is not based on hair length but on a continuing relationship of faith in Jesus Christ.
  
• If obedience is a sign of faith, does this mean that obedience in this matter can guarantee answers to prayer? Again, this question is based on a faulty premise. When we pray, we are not rewarded for our works, but we depend upon God’s grace. Moreover, God is sovereign; we cannot manipulate His actions.
  
• There have been reports of women letting down their long hair as part of making a specific, urgent prayer request. If the idea was to obligate God to answer prayer or to create a new method of praying, then this action was misguided. If instead it was a spontaneous act to confirm their consecration, then it could have been a legitimate means of expressing and focusing faith.

The part I highlighted in red, while I don't necessarily disagree, I certainly wouldn't promote this act. I have actually done this very thing, years ago! Kneeling by the side of the bed, I took down my hair and said, "God! See? I haven't cut my hair! Why won't you do something in this situation?!"

I then realized that I cannot walk around a trial. I must walk through it, with His grace and mercy. I, especially, must walk through it having faith that God will be with me. My long hair is not going to give me any special privileges while I am being perfected. He is the Potter and I am the Clay. No getting around that!

So, for me, the hair issue is disturbing. My husband, yesterday, said, "Somebody better get a brain!" I asked him, "What are we going to do about this?" His response, "We are going to sit back, relax and see if it is taken care of. We'll make a decision when we need to make it."

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Very true pelathias. There were several voices in the UPC who were speaking against the issue that didn't even know DAII and probably were saying so before DAII was.

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Amen. I also think DKB who is an excellent parser of words chose the word "spontaneous" deliberately ...

What we are seeing as DS states in his response is not spontaneous but rather encouraged, celebrated and pre-meditated.

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

Well, you know that my husband and I really like and respect DKB. (lol) We've worked with him and he is very kind, patient and thorough. I think that he really loves God and because of that, I have no problems with DKB.

I'm not sure that I could, emphatically, say that DKB used the word "spontaneous" deliberately. I was acting "spontaneously" when I took my hair down to prove to God that I was obedient. But, if you are saying that the "underlying" act is encouraged, you could be right about that. It's a subtle thing, I think.

We have such wonderful and powerful things going on, it's a shame that this could try to derail it all. I hope that it doesn't. We don't need this to prove anything.

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I'm not sure what I think about Seagraves interpretation of "head" in I Cor 11. He is leaning toward "source", which could, in some cases, be seen in that light. I did agree with everything else he wrote in, Letting Our Hair Down:Another Look at I Corinthians 11:2-16

However, when I view Ephesians 5:23 and Colossians 1:18, I'm not sure that I wouldn't interpret that as "headship" and/or "submission".

Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

He speaks of the "man" and "woman" not specifically meaning a "husband" and "wife", but when you read I Cor 11:9;11 it seems to imply that it is referring to a "husband" and "wife". If not, then why would verse 9 say, in essence, the same as in Genesis?

I Cor 11:9 "Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,..."

Vines says, "As to I Cor. 11:10, taken in connection with the context, the word "authority" probably stands, by metonymy, for a sign of authority (R.V.), the angels being witness of the pre-eminent relationship as established by God in the creation of man as just mentioned, with the spiritual significance regarding the position of Christ in relation to the Church; cp. Eph 3:10; it is used of Christ as the foundation of the spiritual building set forth by the Temple, with its "corner stone," Matthew 21:42;"

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

:spit

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It is clear there is disagreement between Brothers Bernard and Seagraves over the act of "letting hair down" as a means of focusing faith. While KH's position may not be consistent with DS's position, it is likely she is consistent with DKB. There should some flexibility offered for individual understanding between DKB's and DS's positions on "letting down hair". Therefre it should not be necessary to sen KH a copy of DS, without sending a copy of DKB as well! :)

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

This is what Seagraves says that he and DKB agree on:

The only difference they have is the definition of "head". DS is saying that it is "source" at the beginning of I Cor 11. I'm not sure that I agree with DS on that, although, he asks some good questions. I'm wondering if they are necessary questions after reading the overall text. I'm still studying on that portion of the paper.

Now, I have heard for myself, that LS likens our hair, on the same level as a witch, to the power the witch holds in her hair. Whether or not they do is not the question here. LS believes they do. It appears that KH is in agreement with LS and that is where the disconnect and error lies.

It is a fine line, from what I've seen, on the individual interpretation. That is where the subtle error can remain floating if we don't lock it down. Some have explained to me that their obedience is their "power". That still does not make it correct to define "power" as "miraculous" in I Cor 11.

DKB defines "power" as "authority". It appears that LS and KH define "power" as "miraculous power" found in the Book of Acts. Not the same thing - at all! I Cor 11 and Acts do not use the same definition.

They both need to read the article! :)

Re: Read Segraves on "letting down hair"
 

I think the more important topic is the Apostolic response to Christian rap
lol