The "Claim to the Name"
 

I don't want to destroy another thread so I'll start one here.

Two songs, "His Name is Wonderful", and "Jesus, There's Something About That Name", have long been held as "Oneness" national anthems of sorts. But it's interesting to note that both songs were written by strong trinitarians, Audrey Mieir and Bill Gaither.

Here's why I bring it up...I was raised in and spent some of my adulthood in "Oneness Pentecostalism". The feeling I had then was, we had a greater understanding and appreciation of the "Name of Jesus." And certainly now that I've been more associated with the so-called "Christian mainstream" for close to 20 years which definitely leans toward trinitarianism, the view I have of Oneness Pentecostals is that they certainly seem to have a bit of a monopoly of "The Name" almost to the point of perceived "Spiritual Arrogance" about it.

Yet, it has been trinitarians who have penned the greatest lyrics concerning the value of "The Name."

So my question is this...Do "Oneness" people use "The Name" any differently or in any superior fashion than "Trinitarian" people?

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

I've heard Apostolics say, "I was converted to the 'Jesus' Name' doctrine thirty years ago."

I've never really understood what that meant. When they say that, do they mean that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

In the city in which we have resided for just under 60 yrs., there is a strong resistance
to the "Oneness' message. When we moved here in 1950, an Assembly of God lady in-
formed two of my brothers and I that we were "new lights" and that their church was
praying and fasting that the "new lights" would leave town. We were children 9,11 and
13. We had no idea what she was talking about. We learned though. It wasn't just about
long hair, no makeup or woman wearing pants. Many of their ladies did none of these.
Later the pastor's wife had her hair cut and permed. Many others followed suit. It was
not the "standards" that seperated us, but a strong resistance to the teaching of One
God IN Christ Jesus. Also baptism in Jesus Name.

My late father made the statement, "What good is orthodoxy IF IT ISN"T TRUTH"!
It isn't just what's on the outside, although important. IT is WHO is inside, working on
the outside. We can look like the "perfect" saint on the outside, yet when we open our
mouth, what comes out reveals what is in the heart. For out of the abundance ot the
heart, the mouth speaketh.

Blessings,
Falla39

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Well, I'll give a couple of comments on that.

Some on this forum think of me as rather liberal. Maybe because I would consider Bill and Gloria Gaither and others to be as much Christian and as much born of God as any of the rest of us. I am an ordained minister in an old OP organization but I consider anyone who has called on the Lord for salvation to be my brother and sister.

Now, ducking the stones and missiles, let me opine that OP folks do look upon the name "Jesus" somewhat differently than the folks we label as "trinity."

Many of us consider "Jesus" to be "the name" of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost (ref Matthew 28:18-19) I agree with that.

Many of us consider "Jesus" to be God's highest name (ref Phil. 2:5-11) I agree with that.

Some of us believe that the the name "Jesus" with or without a title or two like "Lord" and "Christ" must be verbalized over a person at water baptism to wash away or remit (forgive) sins. I don't agree with that.

I some times use the title of "Jesus Name Pentecostal." I believe we should pray in Jesus' name, cast out demons in Jesus' name, pray for the sick in Jesus' name, and baptize in Jesus' name. Some would quote Colossians 3:17 here.

Although I believe baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is Scriptural, I feel the same way about it as it is worded in the statement of beliefs by Christ Church in Nashville, TN. This is from their web site:
...that all of God's people are to be buried with Christ in the waters of baptism, subsequent to conversion. While we freely embrace those of contrary opinion, we feel that this rite is scripturally administered "in the name of the Lord Jesus." (I personally like "in the name of Jesus Christ" but I wouldn't break fellowship with those who also use the title "Lord" or those who use titles like "Father" or "Son" or "Holy Ghost" or "Savior" etc.)

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Oneness baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. We become Christ' disciples and part of Christ's body when we take on his name. That is one major difference I see.

Another difference, a huge difference, is that we see that Jesus is the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

As for superiority, arrogance can be found in all denominations and people.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Are you takin' potshots at me, Falla?

:toofunny

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Not all all. I am sorry if you thought I was. :heart

What I was speaking of was: Those who embrace the Trinitarian Doctrine,
say that if you don't believe in the Trinity, you are not orthodox. You are
not in tune with all the "major" faiths that do believe in the Trinity. Many
of those think of us as a cult. Along with others.

I didn't think of you as not being apostolic as this is an apostolic forum.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

One persons orthodoxy is another persons heresy.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

I know; I didn't take it the wrong way. :friend

Well, this is the Apostolic Friends Forum, so I guess friends of Apostolics can join too! :thumbsup

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Understood. However, wrongdoing doesn't justify wrongdoing. My overall point is that I believe that "Trinitarians" have every bit as much value of the name of Jesus as anyone else, if not more so. I don't care for the predisposition of many Oneness people that they have "dibs" on the Name of Jesus.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

I personally don't think it is a matter of "use" but a matter of understanding. Someone who doesn't understand biblical oneness just can't get a handle on what God did. Doesn't matter when it comes to salvation, but the oneness understanding is incredible! I've seen it dawn on Trinitarian seminarians, I've taught and it just seems to drive them to their faces in awe and humility.

It is unfortunate that some with this understanding hold it in arrogance and perceived superiority. It is still a wonder to me! :D

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

The highlighted statements are exactly what I'm talking about! Yes, it certainly is unfortunate that "some with this understanding" hold it in the way you just said it.

So you're saying that a trinitarian "can't get a handle on what God did"??? Are you serious???

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, Acts 24:14

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

IMO, Oneness folks do get "worked up" more than Trinitarian folks when it comes to songs about the name "Jesus". Songs of that sort reach deep inside of the DNA of Oneness believers. Our roots are built on the name "Jesus".

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

and then we argue among ourselves and put down those who don't agree with us on what "the name" really is. Is it Yasha, or Yeshua, or Yehoshua, or Joshua, or Yeshu, or what?

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

I'll give you that. But which is greater, Jesus Himself or His name?

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

No one "owns" the name of the Lord. It belongs to Him.

If Trinitarians truly exalt and value the name of the Lord then they should be baptized in His name and become His disciples.

You may not like the prideful disposition of some Oneness folks but neither do I for that matter!

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

There is a difference in those who perhaps have never heard the Apostolic message
and those who HAVE heard and refused to "hear" or have heard and rejected it. Having
ears to hear and eyes to see, but they see and hear not.

My late paternal Grandmother Lizzie, who was the first of our family to hear, search out,
believe and obey the Apostolic message. At first she got angry and decided to prove that
Pentecostal preacher wrong. After searching it out, she had to admit that it was in the Word.
She didn't hesitate, but obeyed it. She received the "Blessing" or the "Promise of The Father".
And as a result it has been passed down to five generations of her family.

We saw it lived and obeyed and it has brought tremendous blessings to the families that
followed her. You see, she received the "Seed" in which all the families of the earth would
be blessed.

Falla39

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Really? I don't understand statements like this. Your insinuation here is that they do not value the name of Jesus which is exactly the point I'm making. I don't know how you could say that or insinuate it. So you really believe that what was verbalized as they splashed through baptismal waters is indicative they don't value the name of Jesus?

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

So do you see those who have not followed the co-called "apostolic message" but are following Christ through more traditional theology, as saved, regenerated, born again, heaven-ready?

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Do any of your churches sing "How Great is Our God?"

And age to age He stands
and time is in His Hands
Beginning and the End,
Beginning and the End
The Godhead, three in one
Father, Spirit, Son
the Lion and the Lamb,
the Lion and the Lamb

I'm curious because our oneness church and Baptist church sing it here.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Bro, this is the exact kind of reasoning that divides the World, creating Wars and Religious hatred.

I used to be so mean spirited to people who believed in the Trinity. I was trained by my elders, "We've got the TRUTH!" They were in false doctrine. They were lost. They needed revelation. If they aren't Baptized in Jesus name, they won't make it! They, they, they.

How can we be so ignorant, thinking we've got God figured out. Every War on Planet Earth is caused by this mental configuring about who God is, and who's side He's on.

We can't accept the fact that our little brains see through a glass darkly, and that good reasoning about life and God comes through life's experiences. Religion only complicates this process, and History proves this. Religion is "God in Jail". I think Jesus speaking in Parables was to let us know, learn from you surroundings, not Religions of this World that bind God to a Letter.

It just blows me away that we speak of things that we've never seen with such authority, as though we've seen them.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Kudos to you for being willing to change your thinking. :thumbsup Great post!

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

EVERY WAR has a religious undertone? I don't think so. Fighting, according to James, whether on a small scale or a large scale is caused by ungodly desires. They may disguise it in the name of God but in truth it is a lust for power and material wealth.

From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war James 4:1-2

What is your definition of "religion"? There is such a thing as pure religion.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Not my place to judge.
1Cor. 4:5

5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

I think our Trinitarian friends simply see God through the stained glass windows of religious tradition. I think that both Trinitarians and Oneness believers love and reverence the name of Jesus to their utmost.

As for Trinitarian songs... we also prooftext against them using Bibles translated by preeminent Trinitarian scholars. Please note... it was a Trinitarian who perfected the "altar call" as we know it. ;)

We Apostolics can be so arrogant. May God have mercy on us.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Let me make it very easy for you so you will not think I'm insinuating anything. Jesus Christ is the one who died for us. We are to be His disciples. Therefore we should or maybe I should say MUST be baptized in his name. We are buried together will Him in baptism. So, do you not want to be His disciple? Do you not want to be buried with Him? Then by all means, don't take on his name when you are baptized.



Your phrasing, "Splashing through baptismal waters" insinuates that baptism is nothing and means nothing to you. And God forbid that anyone should call on the name of Jesus Christ when a new believer decides to obey the command of the Lord and be buried with Him and receive His spiritual circumcision.

I can match your incredulousness with even greater incredulousness! Baptism is part and parcel of becoming Christ's disciple. Invoking the name of the One who died for them, calling on Christ at baptism is essential.

It may simply mean that Oneness Pentecostals value the name more than others since they are willing to call on the name of Christ when they are baptized and not that others don't value the name of Jesus. So some value the name of Christ but are not will to be baptized in His name. Others value the name of Christ MORE because they are willing to be baptized in his name and become his disciples.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

That's the expected cop-out. So, let me approach this from a different angle. Do you believe that adherence to the "Oneness message" is the only way to salvation, that adherence to salvation the Acts 2:38 way is the only way to heaven?

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Good point. And the song was originated by a clearly trinitarian group of people, a gathering called "Passion."

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

In fairness, NOW, they (Trinitarians) would say as much, or far worse, about Oneness brothers.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Yes, and I get suspicious when I hear our Oneness churches changing the words, because somehow we can't use biblical language to describe God anymore. I've heard it MULTIPLE times now. Shows dishonesty.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

What do you mean by the highlighted statement?

The insinuation was very clear that trinitarians don't value the name of Jesus because they haven't been baptized "In Jesus' Name."

"Splashing through the waters of baptism" insinuates nothing except it is a descriptive way of describing baptism. Are you saying there was no splash of water when you were baptized?

But here you clearly say that those who are baptized "In Jesus' name" value the name of Jesus more than those who aren't. I'm sorry, Mizpeh, but there isn't a "non-oneness" believer who wouldn't hear that as being theologically and/or spiritually arrogant. Clearly, you see your standing in Christ as superior to that of others. I have a difficult time with that.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

In some groups, yes. In the particular spiritual culture that I associate with, it wouldn't be true. But still....I don't see the perceived theological and/or spiritual arrogance of others to be a plausible excuse.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Serious as a heart attack! They can't get a handle on it like "we" do.

Different understandings bring different things we can get a handle on. Most oneness folks haven't a CLUE of what justification is WITH a oneness understanding. Most Trinitarians have a good handle on justification but not a handle on what God did if they don't really know the price that was paid. HUGE difference between God sending the 2nd person of the godhead to earth to pay the price and Him coming Himself. I certainly don't beat Trinitarians up over it, but there is a big difference. My comment wasn't condescending but a factual statement from personal experience and observation. :D

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

I thought all the Godhead was in Christ and not Christ in the Godhead?

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

:lol :lol :lol I'm not sure what I can do except chuckle. Exhibit A in theological arrogance. Oh well, at least you're honest about your superiority.

But this is validation of what NotforSale said about war. How can there ever be peace within the Christian Community of our world with attitudes like this? My goodness.

I guess this is why I was never able to assimilate into the "ex-upc" culture. For most, it was just the upc with no dress code. Same exclusivity, different clothes.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

We sing it

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

BTW this might be a little off topic but I was actually thinking if of this last night. I remember listening to a well known evangelist on tape, a service I think I was at but was listening to it again.

Over and over and over the Evangelist,during alter call, would say "In Jesus name, In Jesus name, In Jesus name" and from time to time you could hear an emphasis "In Jesus NAME"

And I think there is more a reason to say "In Jesus name" for the sake of hearers to know we are doing something in that name, but I don't think we have to keep saying "In Jesus name" in order to have the authority we are given.

If something isn't happening, I doubt saying "in Jesus name" one more time is going to make it happen. We need faith. We need prayer (preparatory) and fasting (preparatory).

We have men that are used of in the gifts and great faith, but I think this lack of understanding is bad for the organization. It's the same problem with the Holy Magic Hair issue.

I want to relate something I read in the Winds of God. I can't quote it verbatim but the book was talking about Asuza street and how it was made up of different groups. It noted that the group that struggled the most to actually receive this blessing (baptism/speaking in tongues) were the Holiness groups. They did receive it, but it was always more of a struggle for them.

I wonder if we have that same problem. How come a group that boats of the supernatural so much does not emphasize the gifts more?

We don't have a name. We have authority and if we really were the people of the name we'd understand and emphasize that more. Instead we've backpeddled again into the works mentality. The whole hair issue is a works mentality. It's ironic but I heard LS say once that people got the Holy Ghost in our ranks not because of us but INSPITE of us. LS was one of the biggest "name" preachers I knew who also emphasized the gifts of the Spirit and YOU operating in them, not merely women.

He encouraged us to seek God like he did, in prayer, fasting and faith. We've backpeddled from those early days it seems to a stronger emphasis on obedience and uncut hair as a means not just to salvation but the supernatural works of God in our midst. However that seems to have been the natural progression of a works based system.

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

I remember a few years ago when I was at a very large minister's conference in the southern region in January and the church's choir began singing "Holy, Holy, Holy.......Lord God Almighty...." ...and the crowd was very quiet.....waiting......wondering........a little nervous..........but, when the choir got to the part of the song that says "God in three persons, blessed trinity"......the choir sang "God in Christ Jesus, blessed Deity".......once they sang that line, the tension broke and everyone began to worship! :thumbsup

Re: The "Claim to the Name"
 

Godhead means what?

My bible says the fullness of Deity dwells in Christ in bodily form.

That means something different than what I was taught when I first started this. That is incarnational. God became one of us, rather than indwelling, God was inside one of us.

But since "godhead" has no real definite meaning it seems, then it can mean whatever the hearer wants.

You know Mizpeh, a lot of Trinitarians don't realize this but when they say Modalism is a heresy they don't realize it was a Trinitarian heresy.

The so called heresy was not a rejection of the unity of Father, Son and Spirit but a rejection that Father, Son and Spirit were three distinct persons.

Andrew Urshan I am told still referred to what he believed as a Trinity, just not one of three different persons.

So here is the question, does Oneness believe in the Unity of Father, Spirit and Son or is there a division?