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-   -   What is Your Baseline? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=29133)

EA 03-11-2010 01:45 PM
What is Your Baseline?
 
Whatever happened to the idea of scripture being our baseline (A line serving as a basis, as for measurement, calculation, or location.)?

I've been in discussions about jewelry with a group of men who claim to be conservative. They base that claim on the fact that they hold to the "old paths."

They got mad at me when I asked for scriptures that support the "no jewelry" standard. They said I was a legalist, and that doctrine is not based on scripture alone.

That just floored me.

If we can't discuss issues from the standpoint of scripture, what's the use? Everything else is just somebody's opinion, and you know what they say about those.

Is our new baseline the manual? Tradition? Preference?

What is your baseline?

ManOfWord 03-11-2010 02:02 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885871)
Whatever happened to the idea of scripture being our baseline (A line serving as a basis, as for measurement, calculation, or location.)?

I've been in discussions about jewelry with a group of men who claim to be conservative. They base that claim on the fact that they hold to the "old paths."

They got mad at me when I asked for scriptures that support the "no jewelry" standard. They said I was a legalist, and that doctrine is not based on scripture alone.

That just floored me.

If we can't discuss issues from the standpoint of scripture, what's the use? Everything else is just somebody's opinion, and you know what they say about those.

Is our new baseline the manual? Tradition? Preference?

What is your baseline?
That is what the cons usually carp when backed into a corner for scriptural support. "Old paths" really mean nothing more than TRADITION!!!!! :D

mizpeh 03-11-2010 02:02 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885871)
Whatever happened to the idea of scripture being our baseline (A line serving as a basis, as for measurement, calculation, or location.)?

I've been in discussions about jewelry with a group of men who claim to be conservative. They base that claim on the fact that they hold to the "old paths."

They got mad at me when I asked for scriptures that support the "no jewelry" standard. They said I was a legalist, and that doctrine is not based on scripture alone.

That just floored me.

If we can't discuss issues from the standpoint of scripture, what's the use? Everything else is just somebody's opinion, and you know what they say about those.

Is our new baseline the manual? Tradition? Preference?

What is your baseline?
I think you are asking what authority guides our faith and practice. This is an old argument fought out by the reformers of the 15-1600's with the RCC (who held to two types of authority...tradition and scripture.)

Reclaiming the Mind has some good videos on this topic. I've tried to get Timmy to watch them. ;)

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/?page_id=41 start with #46

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/con...sion1/BH1b.wmv

mizpeh 03-11-2010 02:04 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 885883)
That is what the cons usually carp when backed into a corner for scriptural support. "Old paths" really mean nothing more than TRADITION!!!!! :D
:thumbsup

ManOfWord 03-11-2010 02:06 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 885886)
:thumbsup
Not all tradition is bad, but when it is elevated to the level of scriptural doctrine, it become heresy! (IMHO) :D

Michael Phelps 03-11-2010 02:09 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 885890)
Not all tradition is bad, but when it is elevated to the level of scriptural doctrine, it become heresy! (IMHO) :D
Agreed!

This is one that that ALWAYS bothered me about the UPC - very few people were willing to discuss anything concerning standards! You even breathe that you may be questioning something, and all of the sudden you were wearing the Scarlet Letter!

It also bothers me that a preacher can get in the pulpit at a youth rally, camp meeting, general conference, etc. and preach as far right as he wanted to, and no one would banish him.

But, you let a preacher preach a bit left of center, and he was run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered.

Inconsisten, in my opinion.

Praxeas 03-11-2010 02:16 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Legalism
1.strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, esp. to the letter rather than the spirit.
2.Theology. a.the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.

b.the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

EA 03-11-2010 02:38 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
I suppose I am confused as to how doctrine is formed.

I've always believed that my life is to be patterned after the Word. Growing up in Pentecostalism, that idea was pounded into me.

Isn't our doctrine formed by finding the real meaning of a passage and applying it to our lives?

Timmy 03-11-2010 02:42 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 885884)
I think you are asking what authority guides our faith and practice. This is an old argument fought out by the reformers of the 15-1600's with the RCC (who held to two types of authority...tradition and scripture.)

Reclaiming the Mind has some good videos on this topic. I've tried to get Timmy to watch them. ;)

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/?page_id=41 start with #46

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/con...sion1/BH1b.wmv
Doh! Watched 4 or 5 of them, then, well, kinda got, um, sidetracked. *cough cough lost interest cough*. :lol

I'll get back into watching them, I promise.

TheLegalist 03-11-2010 02:42 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 885899)
Legalism
1.strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, esp. to the letter rather than the spirit.
2.Theology. a.the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.

b.the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.
A. Jesus is a legalist ("rather than spirit" is a bit objective and a very poor point the "spirit of the law" is the consummation of the whole understanding of the law. Letter is a rather weak point as the law is based on principle and it can be used perfectly when understood as a whole functioning body. Jesus clearly taught law and it from the letter as a whole not a itemized list)
2a. Define works and if works are defined how many view works in christianity and on this board..... Jesus is a legalist.
b. JEsus is a legalist


my point the definition is poor and needs refinement.

EA 03-11-2010 02:46 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
I realize most of us teach things (doctrines) that are not necessarily from the Bible.

But is it too much to ask for some sort of scriptural basis when eternal consequences are attached to what is taught?

dizzyde 03-11-2010 02:54 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885871)

If we can't discuss issues from the standpoint of scripture, what's the use? Everything else is just somebody's opinion, and you know what they say about those.

Is our new baseline the manual? Tradition? Preference?

What is your baseline?

This is becoming more and more of an issue with me. And the inconsistencies are HUGE. Especially since it is very clear to me that most of the times, the variations that are seen clearly lead back to personal preference.

I am not totally opposed (so far) to a pastor setting up a code of "standards" for his particular church, as long as it is made clear that these are guidelines and not scriptural mandates (in the instances where they are not.)

However, it is becoming harder for me to swallow this concept when I see so many times that the guidelins that different pastors put forth tie in closely with what their interests and likes are. That speaks to personality, not God led convictions.

Case in point: we had a speaker at our church last week who, for the most part I didn't hate... :blah His background is in psychology, and I like to hear those ideas intersecting scripture. BUT, he spent an inordinate amount of time talking about online activity (facebook, forums, twitter, etc.) one of the nights.

I understand clearly the dangers of these pursuits, that is one of the reasons that I limit my time on the computer on nights and weekends, so that I can spend time cultivating my "real" life. His take on it though was basically that it is all bad and we should spend our times with our families and God. Great concept, except we all have different lives, and different circumstances.

The biggest sticking point for me was that he is several generations ahead of me and it obviously wasn't his idea of a good time. That doesn't really jive with me, and when you are supposed to be spending time as a minister leading me in spiritual matters, I'm not really interested in hearing your personal opinions...

That is just one instance of what I am talking about, and I am more and more coming to the point in my walk with God that if you cannot show me the principle in scripture or at the very least, the idea leading your principle in scripture, I don't really have that much interest in what you are saying.

Blast away! :foottap

mizpeh 03-11-2010 02:56 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885911)
I suppose I am confused as to how doctrine is formed.

I've always believed that my life is to be patterned after the Word. Growing up in Pentecostalism, that idea was pounded into me.

Isn't our doctrine formed by finding the real meaning of a passage and applying it to our lives?
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

dizzyde 03-11-2010 02:58 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885922)
I realize most of us teach things (doctrines) that are not necessarily from the Bible.

But is it too much to ask for some sort of scriptural basis when eternal consequences are attached to what is taught?
No, it's not. :thumbsup

mizpeh 03-11-2010 02:58 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 885933)
This is becoming more and more of an issue with me. And the inconsistencies are HUGE. Especially since it is very clear to me that most of the times, the variations that are seen clearly lead back to personal preference.

I am not totally opposed (so far) to a pastor setting up a code of "standards" for his particular church, as long as it is made clear that these are guidelines and not scriptural mandates (in the instances where they are not.)

However, it is becoming harder for me to swallow this concept when I see so many times that the guidelins that different pastors put forth tie in closely with what their interests and likes are. That speaks to personality, not God led convictions.

Case in point: we had a speaker at our church last week who, for the most part I didn't hate... :blah His background is in psychology, and I like to hear those ideas intersecting scripture. BUT, he spent an inordinate amount of time talking about online activity (facebook, forums, twitter, etc.) one of the nights.

I understand clearly the dangers of these pursuits, that is one of the reasons that I limit my time on the computer on nights and weekends, so that I can spend time cultivating my "real" life. His take on it though was basically that it is all bad and we should spend our times with our families and God. Great concept, except we all have different lives, and different circumstances.

The biggest sticking point for me was that he is several generations ahead of me and it obviously wasn't his idea of a good time. That doesn't really jive with me, and when you are supposed to be spending time as a minister leading me in spiritual matters, I'm not really interested in hearing your personal opinions...

That is just one instance of what I am talking about, and I am more and more coming to the point in my walk with God that if you cannot show me the principle in scripture or at the very least, the idea leading your principle in scripture, I don't really have that much interest in what you are saying.

Blast away! :foottap
Why would anyone blast you for that?

EA 03-11-2010 02:59 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 885936)
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
Amen!

Mizpeh, what of the idea that "the letter killeth?" How does that kosher with this passage?

dizzyde 03-11-2010 03:00 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 885940)
Why would anyone blast you for that?
Well, with some of the comers we have lately, I just wanted to be prepared! :winkgrin

EA 03-11-2010 03:00 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 885933)
This is becoming more and more of an issue with me. And the inconsistencies are HUGE. Especially since it is very clear to me that most of the times, the variations that are seen clearly lead back to personal preference.

I am not totally opposed (so far) to a pastor setting up a code of "standards" for his particular church, as long as it is made clear that these are guidelines and not scriptural mandates (in the instances where they are not.)

However, it is becoming harder for me to swallow this concept when I see so many times that the guidelins that different pastors put forth tie in closely with what their interests and likes are. That speaks to personality, not God led convictions.

Case in point: we had a speaker at our church last week who, for the most part I didn't hate... :blah His background is in psychology, and I like to hear those ideas intersecting scripture. BUT, he spent an inordinate amount of time talking about online activity (facebook, forums, twitter, etc.) one of the nights.

I understand clearly the dangers of these pursuits, that is one of the reasons that I limit my time on the computer on nights and weekends, so that I can spend time cultivating my "real" life. His take on it though was basically that it is all bad and we should spend our times with our families and God. Great concept, except we all have different lives, and different circumstances.

The biggest sticking point for me was that he is several generations ahead of me and it obviously wasn't his idea of a good time. That doesn't really jive with me, and when you are supposed to be spending time as a minister leading me in spiritual matters, I'm not really interested in hearing your personal opinions...

That is just one instance of what I am talking about, and I am more and more coming to the point in my walk with God that if you cannot show me the principle in scripture or at the very least, the idea leading your principle in scripture, I don't really have that much interest in what you are saying.

Blast away! :foottap
Great post!

Baron1710 03-11-2010 03:10 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 885933)
This is becoming more and more of an issue with me. And the inconsistencies are HUGE. Especially since it is very clear to me that most of the times, the variations that are seen clearly lead back to personal preference.

I am not totally opposed (so far) to a pastor setting up a code of "standards" for his particular church, as long as it is made clear that these are guidelines and not scriptural mandates (in the instances where they are not.)

However, it is becoming harder for me to swallow this concept when I see so many times that the guidelins that different pastors put forth tie in closely with what their interests and likes are. That speaks to personality, not God led convictions.

Case in point: we had a speaker at our church last week who, for the most part I didn't hate... :blah His background is in psychology, and I like to hear those ideas intersecting scripture. BUT, he spent an inordinate amount of time talking about online activity (facebook, forums, twitter, etc.) one of the nights.

I understand clearly the dangers of these pursuits, that is one of the reasons that I limit my time on the computer on nights and weekends, so that I can spend time cultivating my "real" life. His take on it though was basically that it is all bad and we should spend our times with our families and God. Great concept, except we all have different lives, and different circumstances.

The biggest sticking point for me was that he is several generations ahead of me and it obviously wasn't his idea of a good time. That doesn't really jive with me, and when you are supposed to be spending time as a minister leading me in spiritual matters, I'm not really interested in hearing your personal opinions...

That is just one instance of what I am talking about, and I am more and more coming to the point in my walk with God that if you cannot show me the principle in scripture or at the very least, the idea leading your principle in scripture, I don't really have that much interest in what you are saying.

Blast away! :foottap

Hear, hear.

BeenThinkin 03-11-2010 03:52 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 885933)
This is becoming more and more of an issue with me. And the inconsistencies are HUGE. Especially since it is very clear to me that most of the times, the variations that are seen clearly lead back to personal preference.

I am not totally opposed (so far) to a pastor setting up a code of "standards" for his particular church, as long as it is made clear that these are guidelines and not scriptural mandates (in the instances where they are not.)

However, it is becoming harder for me to swallow this concept when I see so many times that the guidelins that different pastors put forth tie in closely with what their interests and likes are. That speaks to personality, not God led convictions.

Case in point: we had a speaker at our church last week who, for the most part I didn't hate... :blah His background is in psychology, and I like to hear those ideas intersecting scripture. BUT, he spent an inordinate amount of time talking about online activity (facebook, forums, twitter, etc.) one of the nights.

I understand clearly the dangers of these pursuits, that is one of the reasons that I limit my time on the computer on nights and weekends, so that I can spend time cultivating my "real" life. His take on it though was basically that it is all bad and we should spend our times with our families and God. Great concept, except we all have different lives, and different circumstances.

The biggest sticking point for me was that he is several generations ahead of me and it obviously wasn't his idea of a good time. That doesn't really jive with me, and when you are supposed to be spending time as a minister leading me in spiritual matters, I'm not really interested in hearing your personal opinions...

That is just one instance of what I am talking about, and I am more and more coming to the point in my walk with God that if you cannot show me the principle in scripture or at the very least, the idea leading your principle in scripture, I don't really have that much interest in what you are saying.

Blast away! :foottap
:thumbsup:thumbsup

Pressing-On 03-11-2010 03:57 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 885933)
This is becoming more and more of an issue with me. And the inconsistencies are HUGE. Especially since it is very clear to me that most of the times, the variations that are seen clearly lead back to personal preference.

I am not totally opposed (so far) to a pastor setting up a code of "standards" for his particular church, as long as it is made clear that these are guidelines and not scriptural mandates (in the instances where they are not.)

However, it is becoming harder for me to swallow this concept when I see so many times that the guidelins that different pastors put forth tie in closely with what their interests and likes are. That speaks to personality, not God led convictions.

Case in point: we had a speaker at our church last week who, for the most part I didn't hate... :blah His background is in psychology, and I like to hear those ideas intersecting scripture. BUT, he spent an inordinate amount of time talking about online activity (facebook, forums, twitter, etc.) one of the nights.

I understand clearly the dangers of these pursuits, that is one of the reasons that I limit my time on the computer on nights and weekends, so that I can spend time cultivating my "real" life. His take on it though was basically that it is all bad and we should spend our times with our families and God. Great concept, except we all have different lives, and different circumstances.

The biggest sticking point for me was that he is several generations ahead of me and it obviously wasn't his idea of a good time. That doesn't really jive with me, and when you are supposed to be spending time as a minister leading me in spiritual matters, I'm not really interested in hearing your personal opinions...

That is just one instance of what I am talking about, and I am more and more coming to the point in my walk with God that if you cannot show me the principle in scripture or at the very least, the idea leading your principle in scripture, I don't really have that much interest in what you are saying.

Blast away! :foottap
Preach!!!!!!!

*AQuietPlace* 03-11-2010 04:08 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 885933)
This is becoming more and more of an issue with me. And the inconsistencies are HUGE. Especially since it is very clear to me that most of the times, the variations that are seen clearly lead back to personal preference.

I am not totally opposed (so far) to a pastor setting up a code of "standards" for his particular church, as long as it is made clear that these are guidelines and not scriptural mandates (in the instances where they are not.)

However, it is becoming harder for me to swallow this concept when I see so many times that the guidelins that different pastors put forth tie in closely with what their interests and likes are. That speaks to personality, not God led convictions.

Case in point: we had a speaker at our church last week who, for the most part I didn't hate... :blah His background is in psychology, and I like to hear those ideas intersecting scripture. BUT, he spent an inordinate amount of time talking about online activity (facebook, forums, twitter, etc.) one of the nights.

I understand clearly the dangers of these pursuits, that is one of the reasons that I limit my time on the computer on nights and weekends, so that I can spend time cultivating my "real" life. His take on it though was basically that it is all bad and we should spend our times with our families and God. Great concept, except we all have different lives, and different circumstances.

The biggest sticking point for me was that he is several generations ahead of me and it obviously wasn't his idea of a good time. That doesn't really jive with me, and when you are supposed to be spending time as a minister leading me in spiritual matters, I'm not really interested in hearing your personal opinions...

That is just one instance of what I am talking about, and I am more and more coming to the point in my walk with God that if you cannot show me the principle in scripture or at the very least, the idea leading your principle in scripture, I don't really have that much interest in what you are saying.

Blast away! :foottap
No blasting - I agree with you.

*AQuietPlace* 03-11-2010 04:09 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 885936)
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
What "scripture" was he referring to here?

dizzyde 03-11-2010 04:10 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885943)
Great post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 885950)
Hear, hear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenThinkin (Post 885966)
:thumbsup:thumbsup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 885970)
Preach!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 885975)
No blasting - I agree with you.
Thanks guys!! :highfive

dizzyde 03-11-2010 04:35 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
The other point that keeps popping into my head, so I am going to go ahead and write it down; It drives me bonkers that when you (insert, anyone) get to this point and start asking questions and wanting accountability and consistency, all of the sudden you are wanting to "compromise" and "trying to find out how little you can do to get to heaven."

If that is the best that you can come up with when asked serious questions, I.... well, I really do not understand it and actually have a huge problem with it.

Asking for legitimate reasons and answers for why things are the way they are, is not a huge leap in "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" IMO.

As my daughter would say.."weak sauce."

BeenThinkin 03-11-2010 04:41 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 885986)
The other point that keeps popping into my head, so I am going to go ahead and write it down; It drives me bonkers that when you (insert, anyone) get to this point and start asking questions and wanting accountability and consistency, all of the sudden you are wanting to "compromise" and "trying to find out how little you can do to get to heaven."

If that is the best that you can come up with when asked serious questions, I.... well, I really do not understand it and actually have a huge problem with it.

Asking for legitimate reasons and answers for why things are the way they are, is not a huge leap in "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" IMO.

As my daughter would say.."weak sauce."

dizzyde... don't know you, .... but you don't sound "dizzy" to me! :nah

BeenThinkin

dizzyde 03-11-2010 05:00 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenThinkin (Post 885987)
dizzyde... don't know you, .... but you don't sound "dizzy" to me! :nah

BeenThinkin
LOL, just hang around a while longer, it will all become clear! Seriously, I can be a little goofy! :crazy :woot :gaga

:ursofunny

As far as not knowing me, well, I wouldn't take any bets on that either. The longer that I am on this forum, the more times that it turns out that I actually DO know some of these people, or at least their family or friends, it is kind of crazy! The world is very, very small especially when it it comes to the Apostolic/post Apostolic world!

mizpeh 03-11-2010 05:17 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885941)
Amen!

Mizpeh, what of the idea that "the letter killeth?" How does that kosher with this passage?
I can tell you how my pastor teaches it. He teaches we need the Spirit and the word. If we live only by the word we will dry up and if we live only by the Spirit, we will blow up. We need the balance. :)

I agree with my pastor! If it's all about keeping the rules and knowing the scriptures and not a relationship with God, we dry up. IMO, the Spirit gives understanding of his word and more importantly, guides us in having right attitudes. The presence and personal guiding of the Spirit of God in the lives of his children enrich this walk. To try to do it on our own is a recipe for failure. Romans 7 + 8

mizpeh 03-11-2010 05:18 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 885976)
What "scripture" was he referring to here?
ALL scripture!!!!

Definitely the OT and I believe they might have known they were writing scripture at the time. 2 Peter 3:16, 1 Cor 14:37

*AQuietPlace* 03-11-2010 07:20 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 885997)
ALL scripture!!!!

Definitely the OT and I believe they might have known they were writing scripture at the time. 2 Peter 3:16, 1 Cor 14:37
They didn't have the Bible as we know it back then, so just wondering what they would have considered 'scripture' when he wrote that.

mizpeh 03-11-2010 07:26 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 886044)
They didn't have the Bible as we know it back then, so just wondering what they would have considered 'scripture' when he wrote that.
It took me a couple of minutes to figure out what you were asking! That's when I added the second sentence. :)

noeticknight 03-11-2010 07:36 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 885997)
ALL scripture!!!!

Definitely the OT and I believe they might have known they were writing scripture at the time. 2 Peter 3:16, 1 Cor 14:37

Then perhaps Leviticus 26:7-9 "You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new" is an example of a practice we can teach doctrines of abstinence from?

And since we're talking OT, is it safe to assume that God is a "lady's man?"

1 Chronicles 3:1 "These sons of David were born to him in Hebron: the firstborn was Amnon, of Ahinoam the Jezreelitess; second, Daniel (Chileab), of Abigail the Carmelitess;
2Third, Absalom the son of Maacah daughter of Talmai king of Geshur; fourth, Adonijah, of Haggith;

3Fifth, Shephatiah, of Abital; sixth, Ithream, of his wife Eglah...5These were born to [David] in Jerusalem: Shimea, Shobab, Nathan, Solomon--four of Bathshua (Bathsheba) daughter of Ammiel (Eliam);..."

9These were all the sons of David, besides the sons of the concubines. And Tamar was their sister"...coupled with...1 Samuel 13:14 "But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee."

:)

mizpeh 03-11-2010 07:41 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noeticknight (Post 886055)
Then perhaps Leviticus 26:7-9 "You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new" is an example of a practice we can teach doctrines of abstinence from?

And since we're talking OT, is it safe to assume that God is a "lady's man?"

1 Chronicles 3:1"These sons of David were born to him in Hebron: the firstborn was Amnon, of Ahinoam the Jezreelitess; second, Daniel (Chileab), of Abigail the Carmelitess;
2Third, Absalom the son of Maacah daughter of Talmai king of Geshur; fourth, Adonijah, of Haggith;

3Fifth, Shephatiah, of Abital; sixth, Ithream, of his wife Eglah...5These were born to [David] in Jerusalem: Shimea, Shobab, Nathan, Solomon--four of Bathshua (Bathsheba) daughter of Ammiel (Eliam);..."

9These were all the sons of David, besides the sons of the concubines. And Tamar was their sister...coupled with...1 Samuel 13:14 "But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee."

:)
What's your point?

1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come

noeticknight 03-11-2010 08:03 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 886059)
What's your point?

1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come

My point is that NFS has convinced me of the human element that tarnishes the Word of God.

mizpeh 03-11-2010 08:05 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noeticknight (Post 886083)
My point is that NFS has convinced me of the human element that tarnishes the Word of God.
What is NFS? is he related to Bart Ehrman?

noeticknight 03-11-2010 08:14 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 886086)
What is NFS? is he related to Bart Ehrman?

I don't know. He made a much better argument than I did though...

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=27049

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=25741

Sam 03-11-2010 08:59 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885871)
...
They got mad at me when I asked for scriptures that support the "no jewelry" standard. They said I was a legalist, and that doctrine is not based on scripture alone.
...
Holy tradition and ex cathedra teaching are of equal value and importance to the written Scriptures according to the Roman Catholic and the UPC denominations.

noeticknight 03-11-2010 08:59 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Anglin (Post 885911)
I suppose I am confused as to how doctrine is formed.

I've always believed that my life is to be patterned after the Word. Growing up in Pentecostalism, that idea was pounded into me.

Isn't our doctrine formed by finding the real meaning of a passage and applying it to our lives?

Could you be more specific when you say "our?"

No, I'm not sure any one person, much less, an entire group can claim a complete understanding of pure truth in perfection. My "baseline" (reference) used to be the KJV, but even with that, I've noticed inconsistency and error in the translation; hence, I find myself navigating a spiritual highway full of potholes and speed bumps.

mizpeh 03-11-2010 09:06 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noeticknight (Post 886143)
Could you be more specific when you say "our?"

No, I'm not sure any one person, much less, an entire group can claim a complete understanding of pure truth in perfection. My "baseline" (reference) used to be the KJV, but even with that, I've noticed many inconsistencies and error in the translation; hence, I find myself navigating a spiritual highway full of potholes and speed bumps.
I would like to recommend you take this course online. It's free. All you have to do is watch some videos put out by Dallas Theological Seminary grads about the word of God. Don't let a couple of potholes that NFS put in your path trip you up.

Start with question 46 and go to question 91. Then come back and tell us what you think about inerrancy.

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/?page_id=41

Or maybe you would rather read. Same people different venue:

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?s=inerrancy

Timmy 03-11-2010 09:32 PM
Re: What is Your Baseline?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 885997)
ALL scripture!!!!

Definitely the OT and I believe they might have known they were writing scripture at the time. 2 Peter 3:16, 1 Cor 14:37
Did Jude think the Book of Enoch was scripture?

Jude 1:14-15


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